riogrande5761 wrote:My date range for modeling is 1965-early 1990's (with a focus on the mid-late 80's).
riogrande5761 wrote: JWAR,Did you know any one at WP with the last name Wall? My housemate in college was Richard Wall (he did work for WP for a short time) but both his father and grandfather were WP employee's too.Intermountain sales and reputation has suffered probably because of timing on the market. Genesis hit first, and were very nice looking (to my eye) and cheaper. Intermountain came out at a higher price and availability was more spotty.The Intermountain F's look nice but I haven't bought any. They were originally more expensive than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco's. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
JWAR,
Did you know any one at WP with the last name Wall? My housemate in college was Richard Wall (he did work for WP for a short time) but both his father and grandfather were WP employee's too.
Intermountain sales and reputation has suffered probably because of timing on the market. Genesis hit first, and were very nice looking (to my eye) and cheaper. Intermountain came out at a higher price and availability was more spotty.
The Intermountain F's look nice but I haven't bought any. They were originally more expensive
than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco's. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
Dick
Texas Chief
Intermountain announced the F units 1st, MRC displayed a poorly designed prototype at the Hobbymodels convention in Rosemont, Il. the following Oct. I believe, and then Athearn jumped on the bandwagon and brought them out on the market before the rest could get them built. Stewarts version is real nice but without the detail. The Intermountain F units were originally made in kit form and then shortly after in assembled shells only to fit the Athearn or Stewart power chassis. DickTexas Chief
Right. But the salient thing is that Genesis F units hit the market (hobby shelfs) first as I already said. That hurt Intermountain together with IMR's initial higher prices. I don't recall, but Intermountain may have had some decorated shells on the store shelves before RTR Genesis F units, but shells without chassis didn't quite do it for many modelers, who had to separately purchase a Stewart chassis etc. I recall during the first couple of years after Intermountain F RTR units were shipped, they generally sat on shelves and didn't sell well. Mean while Genesis F's sold briskly. I don't know if I am typical, but I don't own any IMR F units at all, and I do own 8 Genesis F's, and some 20 Stewart. I am selling one of my Stewart Rio Grandes in black w/yellow stripes since it doesn't fit my mid-1960's and later time period.
It seems like a time issue that has dogged Intermountain all along with their F series. I would like to get one of their WP FP7A's since it pulled the Zephyr (back on topic). I have 2 Stewart F3B's to add as boosters.
I agree, Stewarts are real nice too, and only a few things hold them back in comparison: the mold lines on the nose, the lack of separately applied side grills (but the molded ones look very good) and the front coupler pocket opening isn't correct. But otherwise the shell is quite nice and the chassis top notch.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Thanks for all your help guys. You truly are a fountain of knowledge.
I've decided to order the CB&Q F3 ABA from PCM if I decide to get the set. I think they look great and is pretty much what I've been looking for.
Now another issue. What would a good six and ten car train be made up off? I want one small and another possibly larger one to use on the layout.
Magnus
Lillen wrote:Now another issue. What would a good six and ten car train be made up off? I want one small and another possibly larger one to use on the layout.
baggagedome coach (women & children)dome coachdome coach (conductor)dome loungediner10/6 sleeper10/6 sleeper16 sleeperdome observation
Six car. The trick here is to try to maintain the overall profile of the train. I considered one with three domes up front but that is too "domey" and doesn't give enough distance between the front domes and the observation dome. There is no lounge but for a train this short the coach class passengers can use the lounge in the observation car. Note there is no dorm for the crew in this train! They probably get one of the double bedrooms right behind the diner.
baggagedome coachdome coach (conductor)diner10/6 sleeperdome observation
OR
baggagedome coach (conductor)dome lounge10/6 sleeper10/6 sleeperdome observation
This last set puts back in the coach class lounge and dorm for the crew but there is no diner. Everyone has to eat at the buffet! If one leaves in the diner there isn't enough room for paying customers to ride.
FYI here is what I consider a normal peak season train for the set of loco's you have chosen (about 1951):
baggagedome coach (women & children)dome coachdome coach (conductor)dome loungediner5/6 sleeper10/6 sleeper10/6 sleeper16 sleeper 10/6 sleeper (transcon from PRR or NYC)dome observation
During the F3 era of the CB&Q, the rule for the CZ was generally the standard 11 car train or 12 cars:
baggage,3 dome coaches,1 dome-lounge,diner,6-5 sleeper,3 10-6 sleepers,16 section sleeper,dome obs.
The late 1960's is the time when the CZ consists varied alot and were as short as 9 cars in the winter but as long as 12-14 cars in the summer. It makes for more interesting modeling to do these variations. Of course the CB&Q run E units at that time. Proto 2000 made those and you could find them on Ebay probalby.
I don't think this train ran in this configuration "off season" in the early 1950's:
In the 1950's summer and winter trains were the same as far as I know. I don't think it was until the 1960's that the trains really varied alot. The bottom line is of course that you can do what you want on your own model RR!
Once again guys, thanks. One more question, did the CZ mix roadnames? I.e is it possible for me to stick a WP diner in a another wise CB&Q train or perhaps even to or three WP's in a CB&Q train or did the CZ always run homogenic? I would like to know since I can get hold of a WP baggage car but not a CB&Q as far as I've looked.
Thanks, Magnus
Magnus,
The sets of cars always came in a mix of roadnames on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don't recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman wrote: Magnus,The sets of cars always came in a mix of road names on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don't recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
The sets of cars always came in a mix of road names on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don't recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
Thanks, I must have missed that, I appreciate you telling me, that is great news, then I can really mix and match to my harts content. Something that I love to do, to be honest I would probably have done it anyways but if it can be prototypical so much the better.
I find it intereting that you see entire BLI trainstes in one road name for sale on Ebay. The CZ probably never ran that way ever. I have a list of the 6 original CZ train sets on the first day the CZ ran save on my other computer - I think it was on a Western Pacific railroad website. It is a table showing a pretty even mix of all three road names on each train set. Probably for 11 cars you would want 4 CB&Q cars, 4 WP cars and 3 D&RGW cars but thats not a hard and fast rule.
What I did was acquire all the BLI CZ cars which were offered for D&RGW that were common to the RGZ. There were only 7 cars that I could identify (3 dome coaches, 1 48 seat flat top coach, 1 diner, 1 lounge and 1 dome obs). I think the remaining 1 dome coach and 1 flat top coach are coming on a future run). Then someone offered a bunch of CZ cars on the yahoo groups email list and I picked up another 8 cars which were a mix of WP and CB&Q cars and 1 D&RGW sleeper. So out of 15 cars I can build a CZ which is a pretty even mix if slightly scewed toward Rio Grande. But in all likely hood there were some CZ sets that had 4 D&RGW cars in them by chance.
After 1971 when the Rio Grande ran its RGZ, all the CZ name boards were removed and if BLI offers versions of their cars without name boards then I will be forced to consider if I'm going to buy another 9 cars! Rio Grande sold off all it's sleepers and baggage car since none of those were needed on the RGZ.
By the way, here is an example of a Genesis 1960's single stripe D&RGW paint F unit. This happens to be an F9m (a wreck rebuild version of an F3A). It is an interesting model based fairly accurately on a real diesel which was wrecked, sent back to EMD and clothed in an F9A carbody but the roof details (which apparently survived the wreck) were recycled. So the F unit looks like and F9A from the sides but from the roof it looks like an F3A.
The main point to this post is this is how most of the passenger F units looked which pulled the California Zephyr from 1961 and onward (with an occasional 4-stripe F unit rarely substituted in the MU consist). In late 1965 the F3's were retired and after that it was a mix of F7's and F9's which were used to pull the CZ thru the end of operations. F9A 5774 was wrecked in 1967 so technically it would be modelers license to use that loco modeling a later time period.
The currently available single stripe Genesis painted F units are as follows:
F9ABB #5771,5762 and 5763F9AB #5774 and 5773F3 ABBA #5541,5542,5543,5544 (I have heard that the road numbers are wrongly applied to 5544 and 5543 from Genesis. The 5544 should be the F3A unit but is the B, and visa versa)F9m #5531 (wreck rebuild)There are no other single stripe painted F units available in plastic so far other than the F9AB sets from Stewart (which duplicate the Genesis F9's). Hopefully Genesis will offer F7's in single stripe paint for mid-late 1960's use in their modernized F unit producitons coming in the near future.
The F9ABB units would be prototypical to use from about 1964 thru the end of the RGZ era in 1984 (however the pilot on the A unit was changed in 1980 and spark arrestors added in the 70's)
The F9AB #5774,5773 were prototypical in single stripe paint from about 1963 or 1964 (depending on exact paint date) to Oct 1967 when they were wreck while pulling the California Zephyr on rails washed out by spring snow melts and rain. Try modeling that!
All F3's were retired and traded in on 2nd gen hood units by January 1966. We really need more single stripe F units to be offered in F7 denominations.
mlehman wrote:On the issue of the confused A vs. B unit numbers on 5543 and 5544, Athearn was warranting these units. They swapped shells with me to fix this. It's quite possible that you will run across sets of these that haven't been corrected yet. I'd advise dropping a note to Athearn before sending shells back to swap. However, since Athearn is aware of the problem and likely produced plenty of shells to address it, I'd imagine that this warranty adjustment is still available to anyone needing it.
I have been told by those who have gotten the #5544,5543 F3AB set that Athearn takes care of it no problem. Its just an extra hassle to mail order them and have to turn around and ship them back out for correction.
On an interesting side note - Athearns website showed all the 1-stripe F3AB sets sold out when I check a few months ago, and then last week I checked again and it shows the #5544,5543 F3AB sets now due in August. I wonder if this apparent additional run will have the road numbers corrected?
The sound equipped sets say: "Due Early August, 2007" but the non sound versions have nothing listed at all. But nothing about being discontinued which is what it says when Horizon has sold out at the distributor level.
Just specualtion on my part, but I'll bet they are correctly done this time. In fact, in may be that only a few purchasers were aware of the shell swap issue, since many consumers buy things because they look good, not because they're prototypically accurate. No harm -- no foul, they're happy with what they have. It's only we Rio Grande fanatics who probably care...
What may have happened is that Athearn ordered enough of the correct shells to fix everything they shipped in the first batch -- and then got stuck with a whole bunch of the right shells when only a few of us asked that the shells be corrected. Then what do you do? You order a bunch of powered chassis from your vendor. The replacement shells came packed by themselves in their own Genesis boxes, so they even already had those. Just add chassis!
There are certainly plenty of BLI Zephyr cars out there to pull. This also may mean that if you want these, it may be a bit smaller run than usual, given some of them have already gone to those of us who requested the warranty swap.
Very true, I wouldn't be surprised if the redux of that F3AB set 5544, 5543 is smaller but its good news. I have the first half of the set #5541-5544, set #5541,5542 that is sold out, and still need the other half.
BTW, have you noticed that BLI had a inventory clearance sale on the CZ cars? The prices were very attractive but I pretty much have what I need now.
OK, I ordered this. Please comment about if it will make a good setup?
I'm I right if I think that the ABA can be broken up and be run as an AB and one A unit. There by running one large and one small train if necessary.
Any suggestions how I should assemble the train to make it the most realistic would be appreciated.
Here is the stuff I ordered:
Lillen,
Looks like it will will be a sharp train! Three units will look about right pulling it and if the BLI's pull as well as the Genesis Fs (they should), you'll have the power you need to get it over the road.
The Rio Grande often used four units, but I think this was so they had plenty of power for this first class train and to provide some redundacy in case of a road failure. A three unit Rio Grande CZ did run at times. From what I remember being said, the Fs proved to be more reliable than the Alco PAs were for them, but it never hurts to have an extra unit in the mountains. On the other hand, as the Alcos aged, they would have been less reliable for that reason alone. The Rio Grande had committed exclusively to EMD by the time the Fs took over the CZ on a mostly full-time basis in the late 1950s. Somewhat oddly, the CZ didn't always draw the newest F units in this period. I think it still used mostly the F3s well into the 1960s. I don't have my library handy, so I'm winging it on what I remember here.
But you're running a CB&Q CZ. I'm much less familiar with the CB&Q and WP CZ operations. The grades were certainly less of an issue on the Plains. Three F units may have been more standard for them. I'm sure someone who knows more will correct me if I'm wrong about that supposition. I do know the CB&Q went to E units for CZ power after awhile, so that's an option if you want some variety, besides choosing to drop certain cars from your consist.
The mix of cars looks good to me. This was pretty much randomized, unless you are trying to model a specific set on a specific train or something like that and want to match that run exactly.
The only 3 unit sets on the Rio Grande were the ALCo PA's. Keepin mind that they had more horse power than the F3's. The 3 unit ALCo set had the same horse power as a 4 unit ABBA F unit set = 6000 horsepower. I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of a 3 unit F set on the Rio Grande - a mountain RR. The CB&Q was flat land and 3 F's would do the job.
Magnus... it looks like you don't have a dome-observations car in your list. I'd delete one of the 16 section sleepers and one of the 10-6 sleepers and add a dome. Most CZ consists only had 3 10/6 sleepers in the back, unless they were heavy summer trains in the 1960's.
BTW, the 16 section sleepers were converted to coaches in the 1962/63 period from what I read owing to lack of demand for semi private compartments. They still looked the same from the outside after conversion to 48 seat coaches.
A pre-1962 CZ would be the following typical 12 car set:
1-Baggage3-dome coaches (middle one has the conductors window)1-dome lounge1-diner1-6/5 sleeper3-10/6 sleepers (you had four listed - on of them was the trans con sleeper1-16 section sleeper1-dome observation
The 16 section sleeper was before the trans con sleeper in the early years. After 16 section sleepers were converted to coaches, they were usually behind the baggage car at the front, but only in summer when loadings were high. Winters didn't usually see that flat top coach used much at all. If anything you might have a few too many cars. Certainly in the 60's, some summer trains could be 12-14 cars long and winter trains 9-10 cars, deleting dome coaches and sleepers.
Lillen wrote:OK, I ordered this. Please comment about if it will make a good setup?
Yes, I know about the observation car. But I couldn't find it anywhere. If anyone knows of a store that have one I would appreciate it. I would also like a conductor car and a another baggage car.
But the observation car is of course a must since without it the train looks naked I would guess.
Well, thanks, guys, you have been a great source of information and it thanks to all of you that i went with this, my first stream liner rather then something else.
OK, I was able to find another baggage car, I for some reason love baggage cars. But I still haven't been able to locate a observation car. Anyone knows of any?
I have yet another question. How do the diaphragms look? do they look good and close to each other? Otherwise is there any replacement that would look better? I really want this train to look it's best.
Lillen wrote: I have yet another question. How do the diaphragms look? do they look good and close to each other? Otherwise is there any replacement that would look better? I really want this train to look it's best. Magnus
The diaphragms that come on them are about as good as you are going to get. They look great, and if I remember correctly, they even have nice striker plate detail. The diaphragms don't remain "together", but stay close. Fully functional diaphragms with correct car spacing require HUGE radii anyhow.
I know what you mean about the baggage cars. For some reason I love head end equipment myself. On my consolidated Super Chief/El Capitan I have 2 baggage cars (ocassionally the Santa Fe ran as many as three), an RPO, and a baggage dormitory. The head end cars can make for some great passenger train operating sessions.
The LTS here had some obs cars a while back. I will have to check it out, but those cars don't seem to sit on the shelf very long in this state.
Lillen wrote:I have yet another question. How do the diaphragms look? do they look good and close to each other? Otherwise is there any replacement that would look better? I really want this train to look it's best.
That is great guys. I love good diaphragms. I really think it adds to the looks of a train.
I use 36" curves as a minimum.
Nice layout you got there. How big is it?
I don't know if Ebay is an option, but I see BLI CZ cars on there all the time and I'd expect dome observation cars to be among the choices you could get.
As for baggage cars, I've never seen a picture of the CZ with more than one baggage car - it seemed to be very consistent up to the very end. I'd say if there were ever 2 baggage cars used, it was very rare. And since there were only 6 purchased, one for each of the train sets in motion - one trainset would be without if another had double. Of course its your train and you can run what make you happy.
Speaking of baggage cars, an interesting exception in the 1960's is a CB&Q Havloc baggage car was often substituted for the CZ Budd made baggage car. I've seen that CB&Q baggage in numerous photo's.
Also, I''ve seen pictures in the late 1960's of Rio Grande Pullman Standard coaches and dome chair cars at the head end of the CZ as special company cars. Walthers carries Pullman Standard 52 seat coach in Rio Grande 4-stripe paint so I ordered 2 of them, they are on sale right now. For general interest, one could put one or two of those right behind the baggage car and be prototypical.
Other foreign cars on the CZ in the 1960's were sleepers. Often a single sleeper by Union Pacific, New York Central, Pennsylvania RR etc were included right at the end of the train ahead of the dome-observation car!
Lillen wrote: I have become fascinated byt the BLI California Zephyr Passenger Cars, But I can't fint the engine that BLI produced to pull them? Are they out? Wich was it and what would you recomend otherwise. Thanks for your time, Magnus P.s Anyone who got some of them who like to share there experiences with them?
I have become fascinated byt the BLI California Zephyr Passenger Cars, But I can't fint the engine that BLI produced to pull them? Are they out? Wich was it and what would you recomend otherwise.
Thanks for your time, Magnus
P.s Anyone who got some of them who like to share there experiences with them?
I noticed several observation cars are now on Ebay since it was mentioned they were hard to find.
Cheers
I'm going to have a look at that, I just don't like shopping at eBay that's all. I don't know why but I don't.