Why do I have to be a rivet counter or a toy train owner?

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see some posts from a guy running Tyco trains giving a guy with high end brass stuff a hard time. Simple put. Show em to me.

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

:) That's what i'm getting at I guess. You don't see the TYCO guys coming here giving the Brass guys a hard time. :)

Where have you been? There's at least one post a week on this forum that can be loosely interpreted as "Those &*^)*$@ rivet counting &!%@^)*# are ruining my fun." You almost never see a similar post from prototype modelers lambasting toy-train players.

There's a LOT of anti-prototype bias on this forum, same as there is among the bulk of the hobby. That's why the prototype modelers have decided to mostly ignore the rest of the hobby, and do their own thing. Prototype modeling meets are some of the biggest MRR conventions in this country. Proto modelers are cranking out most of the "how to" magazine articles. Proto modelers are the ones influencing the manufacturers.

When was the last "Tyco modelers meet"?

When was the last time any HO company (besides IHC or Athearn) deliberately came out with a piece of rolling stock or engine that was of no known prototype, and catered ONLY to the toy train market?

[Anonymous]

I actually think I hurt your feelings or something. I never said anything about a Rivet counter being "rude." Don't try to put text in my post.

I did not intend to hurt your feelings in some way. I'm actually a little puzzled you are calling me "insecure" You don't know me at all!

Simple point to this post. Try to remember that we are not encouraging people to join the hobby if we tell them what they are working with is junk or not accurate.

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

:) That's what i'm getting at I guess. You don't see the TYCO guys coming here giving the Brass guys a hard time. :)

I call BS on that one...

This thread is a good example... Rivet counters this, rivet counters that... I've found the "toy train" types far more rude than any rivet counters I've encountered...

The toy train crowd is so insecure they feel the need to come here and whine how the BIG BAD rivet counter pointed something out and get sympathy from other people.. BOO HOO. If you're that insecure you need more help than anybody on an internet forum could give.

There's room for everyone in the hobby be it historians or history re-writers and there's no need for either side to be a jerk about it. No layout will be 100% prototypical and if someone wants to make an extra effort to get it more accurate for a specific prototype thats great -- thats the essence of modeling; not just plopping any old stuff on the track.

So forget the other terms, you're either a modeler or a out of the box runner. Freelancing is modeling (I put freelancing in the category of prototype modeling as most are on that level), opening a box and running steamers and highcubes isn't.

[Anonymous]

I sure hope no newbees read this post because if they do they will no doubt find another hobby. I like to see proto items, can I build them, not at this time. Do I like great detail, yes buy I don't have the time to do it as some can. Does this upset me, not in the least. I run my trains for fun. When it stops being fun then the garage sale starts. I model in HO but still have a orginal boxed Lionel set from 1950 that the only reason it is in the boxes is lack of space. This post only divids us, it does not unite us. Phil

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

I actually think I hurt your feelings or something. I never said anything about a Rivet counter being "rude." Don't try to put text in my post.

I did not intend to hurt your feelings in some way. I'm actually a little puzzled you are calling me "insecure" You don't know me at all!

Simple point to this post. Try to remember that we are not encouraging people to join the hobby if we tell them what they are working with is junk or not accurate.

Yeah, I said "rude", not you.... My post wasn't addressed at YOU, it was in general -- your comment was what provoked me to reply as its represenative of the attitude of a lot of people...

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

I'd like to see some posts from a guy running Tyco trains giving a guy with high end brass stuff a hard time. Simple put. Show em to me.

Just look through this (relatively mild, surprisingly) topic, and count the number of "Friggin' rivet counter" posts, versus the "Doofus toy train-player" posts. The anti-rivet crowd is the hostile and confrontational group, not the other way around.

Most rivet counters are actually very careful about who they associate with, who they talk to, and how they comment about run of the mill modelers and their run of the mill layouts. That's because they've been run out of the hobby at large by the anti-rivets crowd. The NMRA is coughing up blood because proto modelers have abandoned it in droves, preferring to attend proto modeler meets, where they don't have to put up with, and be grudgingly civil to, the "Blue Box is Best" crowd.

Proto modelers have a derrogatory term for the sort of people who attack anyone who tries to make accurate models and layouts: vesties. I won't get into exactly what it means, but it's as vile as the term rivet counter.

Want the hobby to be less divisive? How about the non-rivet counters stop criticizing anything that strives to reach above mediocrity for awhile?

[Don Gibson]

Ray:

"the "Blue Box is Best" crowd..". Well put. - Way with words.

Seems the 'Simpler is better' types are very defensive.Perhaps they have much to be defensive about - aside from trains.?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Want the hobby to be less divisive? How about the non-rivet counters stop criticizing anything that strives to reach above mediocrity for awhile?

So your saying that anyone who is not a type A rivet counter is mediocre or the models they run are mediocre?

It has been said many times in this thread but i'll say it again. Many people choose to focus on many different aspects of this hobby, some super detail engines, others super weather rolling stock and buildings, some build near exact replicas of the world around us, others like a fantasy world where they can get away for a while and run things like they want. I know a couple rivet counter types (not using that name in a bad way) that have nice engines and no layout to run them or they have a track network on bare plywood, would that be considered a mediocre model railroad career then since the name of the hobby is Model Railroading not Super Detailed Engine/Rolling Stock Makers? Of course it doesnt, we all have different intrests in the hobby, im fortunate to have two others working on the layout with me and its nice because we each bring different intrests to the table, one guy loves detailing engines and is a master with the airbrush, the other is a plaster master and can shape moutains and pave real roads and sidewalks and i build super detailed structures and final scenery details but the common ground we have is we all love running trains and the layout, it doesn't matter that each one has different goals.

All that to say watch throwing around the mediocre word, i work hard on all aspects of my layout and while most of my engines are not super detailed or some are RTR type i would not call them mediocre by any means and neither do most of the people that come see the layout, the only ones that know the engines are super detailed most of the time are the ones that made them and like minded modelers, again i said most of the time.

-Hotshott

[Darth Santa Fe]

I'm not a "rivet counter", so I guess I fit in the "toy train owner" group.[:D] I don't really care about something having perfect detail or not, or towns and railroads being realistic at all, but everyone is different. Some people want perfection, others just want to run something. Doesn't really make one crowd better than the other.[:D]

Now that I think about it, it's impossible to make something perfectly realistic.[:O] What I mean is, have you ever seen a model engine crew with every single finger print and eyeball arterie precisely printed? Didn't think so.[:o)][:D]

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hotshott

QUOTE:
Want the hobby to be less divisive? How about the non-rivet counters stop criticizing anything that strives to reach above mediocrity for awhile?

So your saying that anyone who is not a type A rivet counter is mediocre or the models they run are mediocre?

No, I'm saying that maybe the Tyco/Model Power crowd should lay off the MODELERS in the hobby, and stop calling anyone who models several levels above their own level rivet counters in a derrogatory way. If you're just starting out, or if you physically cannot model, or if you're one of those contrarians who deliberately and purposely builds a mediocre fantasy layout, that's just fine by me. Just don't revel in your mediocrity, extoll it's virtues with a loud voice, and dare "those rivet counting SOBs" to comment negatively, while at the same time putting down the work of people who are obviously better modelers than you. (the "royal you", not you specifically)

Don't think THAT doesn't happen? Look at this thread. I'm one of a bare few proto modelers who has bothered to try to defend our aspect of the hobby. Mostly, it's because most of them aren't even ON this forum, but it's also because most of them think it's a waste of type to try to change the REAL bias in this hobby, that of anti-proto modelers.

QUOTE:
I know a couple rivet counter types (not using that name in a bad way) that have nice engines and no layout to run them or they have a track network on bare plywood

So do I. In fact, one of the best modelers in this country doesn't currently have a home layout, and hasn't in over 20 years. But he's about to start one, and it'll be a doozy. I also know or know of several proto modelers who have absolutely fantastic home layouts, some of which are regularly featured on this forum and in print. Problem is, most people who start whipping out the RC word think that NONE of "those guys" have a home layout. They may respect those "few" proto-based modelers who are nothing but courteous and helpful, but they're still calling them names when they start whipping out the rivet counter stereotype.

QUOTE:
would that be considered a mediocre model railroad career then since the name of the hobby is Model Railroading not Super Detailed Engine/Rolling Stock Makers?

No, because I'm not passing judgement on anyone in this hobby EXCEPT for those who love to attack better or more knowledgable modelers than they. Is it OK to sit by and let the toy train players attack modelers all day long on this forum (and in the hobby in general) and not take a stand and call them to the carpet once in awhile?

And as you've said yourself, it takes all kinds in this hobby. My focus is on the MODELING part though, so I have more respect for those who can build exquisite models and don't have a layout, rather than those who build bad layouts and who can't model.

Am I a "great" modeler? Nope. Just like everyone else, I have my strong points and my weak points. But I don't point to my junk and say, "Isn't this the greatest?", as some in this hobby do.

QUOTE:
All that to say watch throwing around the mediocre word, i work hard on all aspects of my layout and while most of my engines are not super detailed or some are RTR type i would not call them mediocre by any means and neither do most of the people that come see the layout, the only ones that know the engines are super detailed most of the time are the ones that made them and like minded modelers, again i said most of the time.

But do your less than proto models look good in context? Is your layout as a whole mediocre, or just elements? Every layout has good points and bad points, but what makes a layout stand out is it's basis in reality. And THAT'S proto modeling (or rivet counting): the ability to weave reality in CONTEXT, using our little toy trains. That's what brings a modeling whole about just playing with trains to something better, something greater. When people snidely refer to rivet counters, they're denigrating the artists in the hobby as just another bunch of nuts in the basement.

So if your layout as a whole looks good and conveys a sense of reality (whether it's truly a prototypical layout or model, or proto-lanced), then it will bump the lower-quality aspects of it up a few notches. I like to think that taken as a whole, my layout allows my Accurail stand-in models to work alongside Sunshine resin cars without dragging the entire layout down.

And is a mediocre layout really subjective? We all know what excellent layouts look like; just look in any monthly magazine. Can't we also tell at a glance what a mediocre or even bad layout looks like? If the owner is having fun with it, that's fine. But call a spade a spade some times.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13

Lifelike has Repainted a GP 38-2 in Australian National paint and no such protrtype exists.

Maybe they hoped people would mistake them for an ANR CK?

QUOTE: Collecters may be interested in them

Collectors? Even toy train owners look down on them, don't they? [}:)]

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

Simple point to this post. Try to remember that we are not encouraging people to join the hobby if we tell them what they are working with is junk or not accurate.

Simple response: I'm happy enough to help people once they make the decision to become a model railroader, but I'm not interested in encouraging people to join the hobby - that's entirely up to them. If I wanted to proselytize I'd join a church.

Regardless, there are models that are junk, and that are inaccurate - often both. I fail to see how you're encouraging newcomers by not warning them off such junk.

All the best,

Mark.

[SpaceMouse]

I am new at this hobby. I've been here since I started 19 months ago. But I know I want to do the best I can with my layout. My first layout is a more or less a fantasy (which I know Mark N for one despises[:D]) but it has the purpose of helping me refine my skills. The way it is going, I'm thinking I have two more years in it and it only 5 x 8. Doing your best takes time.

I realize that not every one has the patience to do their best. That's fine. But if you don't have patience, don't confuse that with others having snobbery. I've found that the best modelers here are the one's that go the furthest out to help someone who is willing to put forth effort. Those same people may not put out effort to those that don't try.

I have not earned the title of "rivet counter" or even " Mr. Train Modeler". But I feel an obligation to help others like I have been helped. I have made enough mistakes that I can see others heading down those paths. And there are many mistakes I have yet to make. I do what I can, but I can only help those that put out the effort. And how much effort one is willing to put out is a personal decision. All levels of effort are acceptable within a hobby.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hotshott

So your saying that anyone who is not a type A rivet counter is mediocre or the models they run are mediocre?

Ray and I are both saying that many of those who use the term rivet counter as a pejorative are mediocre modellers, or have mediocre layouts. Are you saying that everybody in the hobby achieves the same standard of excellence?

QUOTE: the name of the hobby is Model Railroading not Super Detailed Engine/Rolling Stock Makers?

Exactly. Neither is the name of the hobby Endless Second-Rate Rehashes Of The Fantasy Layout Of Somebody Who Was Famous Forty Years Ago... [;)]

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

My first layout is a more or less a fantasy (which I know Mark N for one despises[:D])

LOL![:D][:D][:D]

I wouldn't go that far, Chuck. I don't despise fantasy layouts - I just don't understand them! [;)]

All the best,

Mark.

[BRAKIE]

All to sadly I seen "rivet counters" that was nasty,spiteful and heady..Those are the ones that give good "rivet counters" bad names...I don't know which I loathe more bad rivet counters or those that look down their long noses at others modeling because it doesn't fit their self centered/self proclaim expert modeling style..

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hotshott

So your saying that anyone who is not a type A rivet counter is mediocre or the models they run are mediocre?

Ray and I are both saying that many of those who use the term rivet counter as a pejorative are mediocre modellers, or have mediocre layouts. Are you saying that everybody in the hobby achieves the same standard of excellence?

QUOTE: the name of the hobby is Model Railroading not Super Detailed Engine/Rolling Stock Makers?

Exactly. Neither is the name of the hobby Endless Second-Rate Rehashes Of The Fantasy Layout Of Somebody Who Was Famous Forty Years Ago... [;)]

Cheers,

Mark.

Of course im not saying everyone achieves the same level of skills in this hobby, but calling a work mediocre for copying principles developed by modellers of a long time ago isn't right either. While i personally don't subscribe to that type of modeling it does produce some nice results sometimes. I mean i consider gluing a bunch of super detail parts to an engine, painting it to match and adding a new road number the mediocre side of the rivet world. My hat is off the the guys who cut and grind shells, totally redesign engine frames and add new electronics and come up with really nice looking pieces though, i just don't have the time (and prob not as much skill) to do that kind of work.

The fantasy side of the modeling scene (which i don't really model) is like an artists painting, it represents the world as seen or created by the painter but sometimes doesn't look as good to the viewer. Take circus layouts for example, i don't understand why someone would model only a circus but i don't say its a poor layout or its mediocre just because i don't understand it or the style differes from mine. It may be the best they can do or it may be what they like, i don't know. Im just glad they are participating in the hobby and enjoying it.

Regarding the name of the hobby not being second rate rehashes of whatever...never the less thats still a model railroad whether its a copy or not, it still takes some skill or talent to accomplish it and it fits into the name of the hobby more than people who make detailed engines that have never touched a rail.

-Hotshott

[Anonymous]

I think the horse is dead.[sigh] We can stop beating it now.[:-^]

[BentnoseWillie]

QUOTE: people who make detailed engines that have never touched a rail

I've heard this notion before, and I have no idea how it came to be.

I know many modellers who pursue a high degree of detail, many of whom have no home layout for various reasons. Be that as it may, every high-detail model I have ever seen was built to be run. I probably spend more time building models than I would if I had a space for a layout, but eventually I will have such a space, at which time I'll shift to building a layout on which my models may run. In the meantime, I run them when I can, because that's what they're built to do.

You don't have to choose to pursue the hobby the way anyone else does, but in my experience it's unfair to dismiss highly-detailed models as not being made to run.

[Don Gibson]

In this shades of gray (non black and white) World ...

SUBJECT: "Why do I have to be a rivet counter or a toy train owner?"

Isn't it obvious by now - you DON'T?

[selector]

Of course, Don is right. If the question is asked on an open forum, everyone who reads is invited to offer an opinion, and opinions are driven by experience, which is driven by interests. A young father with 1.7 kids will not have the time, in all likelihood, to perform what the dabbler would call a miracle in modelling. Or, if he does, it is precious little, and he will not produce much more than a few models in the time he does have. Little wonder that a layout might have to wait for a few years. That should not be an obstacle for the rest of us to give him an attaboy for superb work. However, if that same dad spends his time generating what our modeler would call ho-hum, and that is the best he can do at the time, we should encourage that for the sake of the person and the hobby...to my way of thinking.

I keep seeing Croc Dundee whipping out his gator gutter from his rear beltline and saying, "That's not a knoayf...this is a knoayf" The upper hand went to Croc because he was defining the item in his own terms. They were both knives, in case you don't know the scene, but Croc's was much larger.

Anyway, I think the originator feels that he doesn't particularly like the feeback from those who go further in developing realism. But it is hard for those who prefer more accuracy to be deceitful when someone asks the general question, "How about them IHC x-y-x's?" and not offer an opinion based on their experience...the one where they learned, maybe too late, that the model doesn't really fall into any one prototype very well, at least not without a great deal of work. If the asker doesn't want that type of feedback, then he/she must learn to either ignore it or to refine their asking.

[2c], please.

Edit to clean up typos....mostly.

[davekelly]

I'm a rivet counter. Last project I did, I counted the rivits on my model. 306 of 'em. I then counted the rivits that I saw on a pic of the prototype. 13,987. Hmmm.

[Bergie]

You guys sure know how to drain my faith in community.

This is a copy of my response to a similar topic concerning nit-picking. Please, try to learn from it.

Bergie

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm locking this..... although I'm not sure why I just don't delete it.

Here's my take:

A) Stop being so critical of one another. This is a hobby after all. We're all in this for different reasons, and we all have differing opinions on what to do with this hobby. Stop looking down your nose at someone if they don't do things to your standards. Try to support your fellow modeler.

B) Everything we work with is non-prototypical when you get right down to it. I challenge you to find a model that has every single characteristic of its 1:1 counterpart captured perfectly. Working in scales of 1:160, 1:87, or 1 to whatever, you have to make some sacrafices. And that's no big deal, because, again, this is a hobby.

Now, let's move on.