Why do I have to be a rivet counter or a toy train owner?

[Anonymous]

Just an observation.

I think I lean more towards the Toy Train owner for the most part but I'm not sure I like the reference.

When I say I enjoy the MTH O scale Pennsy Steam engine and I look forward to MTH releasing the Ho scale models...why would someone respond...I guess if you like "Toy trains."

Also might surprise you I enjoy smoke coming from my steam engines on occasion. Some might say, "That's not prototypical" And again the Toy train reference comes out again.

I realize there are people that measure the grab Irons on flat car and say nope...there too large not prototypical. I would say geez I don't care and someone might respond. Buy a "Something model" They have the right scale grab irons.

I look at it like this. You will always find some guy willing to pay big bucks for a Sunfire amplifier for his home stereo. You will also find the guy that will buy the Audiovox at Target and say it works for me. I like to think I'm the guy in the middle buying the Panasonic and say I have the best of both. :)

So what would you call me in model train terms? :)

Sorry for the ramblings... I'm in a mood today.

[Anonymous]

I don't think it matters, as long as you enjoy it. You're a model railroader regardless.

[Don Gibson]

So what would you call me in model train terms?

A. Average.

It's what turns you on: 'Different strokes for different folks'.

[Anonymous]

Does it really matter? You do your thing, and I'll do mine. Just enjoy the hobby and ignore the nit pickers.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

To be honest, no matter how detailed one gets we are all just playing with toys.[:I]

The best part of this hobby is the ability to grow. The so called "rivet counters" started with a basic oval and loco. The beauty of this hobby is that they were able to expand that basic set. Good for them. [^] BUT..... Shame on any of them that look down on the person who has a basic oval and a loco. [V] Not all people have the same desire, talent and money to do what they do.

Bottom line.....if you enjoy this hobby then that is all that matters. How sad to have a hobby and hate it.

On a side note: This hobby tends to be more artistic than other hobbies. Art is very subjective which lends itself to debate and criticism. As a songwriter I knew once counseled me, "Blessed is the artist with a gentle heart and thick skin."

[Anonymous]

I don't let such comments bother me. Most of them rivet counters don't have layouts and they have to buy it perfect because they can't fix any inaccuracies. Next one who says such a thing, ask them to see their layout. Stay between them and the door and point out their mistakes. This is a fun hobby, why some want to turn it into a competetion is because they are empty inside. Keep the faith jflessne. I'm pulling for you. Fred

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Gumby4
To be honest, no matter how detailed one gets we are all just playing with toys.[:I]

[#ditto] Some people just like the correct number of toy rivets on the toy trains so they look good in the toy world created for them to run in (which is most often called a layout).[:)]

Of course in your example you stated the company em tee ach. As soon as that name is involved there are other issues. Did you get permission to post their name? They might sue you, if you didn't.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

If someone wants to slap prototype restrictions on what I do with MY layout, oh, there is trouble indeed. First off, I enjoy running my trains as I see fit. I have a neighbor who is in to prototype operation so deep, he runs his trains on the railroads exact schedule and runs only what they run. He used to come over quite a lot but, when he started trying to get me to apply his restrictions to my operations, I showed him the door. He still comes over, when he needs advice on how to do something. I don't miss him much.

[Anonymous]

To me no. I'll continue to do me own thing regardless it's the poor new people that come here to get into the hobby that might suffer.

It's also the 30 or so people at any given time are reading the forums as guests that might not sign up and post because their collection of Tyco motive power may be criticized.

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Does it really matter? You do your thing, and I'll do mine. Just enjoy the hobby and ignore the nit pickers.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

Yes, I agree with you on that too Jeremy, it does matter. Fred

[Anonymous]

:) That's what i'm getting at I guess. You don't see the TYCO guys coming here giving the Brass guys a hard time. :)

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffrey-wimberly

If someone wants to slap prototype restrictions on what I do with MY layout, oh, there is trouble indeed. First off, I enjoy running my trains as I see fit. I have a neighbor who is in to prototype operation so deep, he runs his trains on the railroads exact schedule and runs only what they run. He used to come over quite a lot but, when he started trying to get me to apply his restrictions to my operations, I showed him the door. He still comes over, when he needs advice on how to do something. I don't miss him much.

[Anonymous]

I admit bad example. I expect the Sheriff Joe Arpaio to be knocking on my door any second. Grab my trains and run.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by Gumby4
To be honest, no matter how detailed one gets we are all just playing with toys.[:I]

[#ditto] Some people just like the correct number of toy rivets on the toy trains so they look good in the toy world created for them to run in (which is most often called a layout).[:)]

Of course in your example you stated the company em tee ach. As soon as that name is involved there are other issues. Did you get permission to post their name? They might sue you, if you didn't.

[ericboone]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne
When I say I enjoy the MTH O scale Pennsy Steam engine and I look forward to MTH releasing the Ho scale models...why would someone respond...I guess if you like "Toy trains."

The snide remark probably has more to do with the negative feelings toward MTH than towards O scale trains.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

To me no. I'll continue to do me own thing regardless it's the poor new people that come here to get into the hobby that might suffer.

It's also the 30 or so people at any given time are reading the forums as guests that might not sign up and post because their collection of Tyco motive power may be criticized.

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Does it really matter? You do your thing, and I'll do mine. Just enjoy the hobby and ignore the nit pickers.

Bob Boudreau

Hey, don't pick on my old Tycos. They're about a third of my fleet. [:D]

[Anonymous]

I gave up on UK TOY TRAINS because I got fed up with rivet counters fussing that a rivet should be 1.5 microns further left on a loco maintained at Swindon on the 5th October 1911... but if it had been at Wolverhampton on the...
trouble was the same people would ask me "Where do I put the signals"? and want a two second answer. [banghead]

So I moved to US practice... and... guess what... I can't get a clear answer on the signals! Aaaargh! [%-)]

I love all the aspects of model/toy RR, all the history, design, technical... there is so much variety.

One thing I want to work out is how to fit a smoke unit into an H0 brass Alco and programme it so that it belches smoke when I wind the throttle up. I've seen this done in 0 Gauge in a Class 47 and it looked superb.

Apart from the stink and residue if people want sound why not smoke?

Someone here did an MPD (loco facility) using dry ice, miles of plastic tube and tripped valves so that locos appeared to smoke and "blow down" as they worked around the shed and turntable. if that wasn't a "serious model" it was certainly a load of fun!

I learnt the "rivet counting" question years ago... short version... at a show we put a loco from the South of England together with a tender from Scotland. Both were scratch built in brass (0 Gauge) great models and unpainted. All afternoon people nit-picked details... no-one noticed that they would never have come within 300 miles of each other.

"My toy train is better than yours! So there"! [:P]

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

:) That's what i'm getting at I guess. You don't see the TYCO guys coming here giving the Brass guys a hard time. :)

Where have you been? There's at least one post a week on this forum that can be loosely interpreted as "Those &*^)*$@ rivet counting &!%@^)*# are ruining my fun." You almost never see a similar post from prototype modelers lambasting toy-train players.

There's a LOT of anti-prototype bias on this forum, same as there is among the bulk of the hobby. That's why the prototype modelers have decided to mostly ignore the rest of the hobby, and do their own thing. Prototype modeling meets are some of the biggest MRR conventions in this country. Proto modelers are cranking out most of the "how to" magazine articles. Proto modelers are the ones influencing the manufacturers.

When was the last "Tyco modelers meet"?

When was the last time any HO company (besides IHC or Athearn) deliberately came out with a piece of rolling stock or engine that was of no known prototype, and catered ONLY to the toy train market?

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jflessne

:) That's what i'm getting at I guess. You don't see the TYCO guys coming here giving the Brass guys a hard time. :)

I call BS on that one...

This thread is a good example... Rivet counters this, rivet counters that... I've found the "toy train" types far more rude than any rivet counters I've encountered...

The toy train crowd is so insecure they feel the need to come here and whine how the BIG BAD rivet counter pointed something out and get sympathy from other people.. BOO HOO. If you're that insecure you need more help than anybody on an internet forum could give.

There's room for everyone in the hobby be it historians or history re-writers and there's no need for either side to be a jerk about it. No layout will be 100% prototypical and if someone wants to make an extra effort to get it more accurate for a specific prototype thats great -- thats the essence of modeling; not just plopping any old stuff on the track.

So forget the other terms, you're either a modeler or a out of the box runner. Freelancing is modeling (I put freelancing in the category of prototype modeling as most are on that level), opening a box and running steamers and highcubes isn't.

[Anonymous]

There is some truth in the two posts after my last... without vthe rivet counters we probably would never have had the incredible develoments that we have been privelaged to have. The quality of "off the shelf" model RR stuff is possibly higher across the board than any other hobby.

BUT... the rivet counters do seem to have great skill at getting up a lot of peoples' noses.

As I said: "My toy train is better than yours! So there"!

...and you should see the competative marrow world!

Just remember... Thomas the Tank Engine Rules! [bow]

[ARTHILL]

You don't. There are about 25 catagories in between and about 10 on the side some place.

[SpaceMouse]

You know for all the BS that goes on here, I've heard a lot of people complain about rivit counters looking down their nose at everyone, but I don't believe I've actually read a post where it happened. My suspicion is that some people are insecure with their layouts and when they see Joe's landscape, or one of the Bobs' details, or one of Aggro's steamers.... well let's say the criticism is self-directed form an outside source.

Maybe I have rose-colored glasses.

Let's also be clear that I'm not saying this is the case with originator of this post. I don't see this as that type of post.

Edit: I took so long to get this posted that David T. Beat me too the punch by 3 posts.

[tomikawaTT]

Gentlebeings,

A tad of toleration, please!

For any non-constructive or coercive criticism, there is always one simple answer - the golden rule. He who pays the gold makes the rules.

For anyone who HAS to have EVERYBODY do things HIS way, ask if he's related to Osamu Bin Laden.

This hobby has such a large scope that nobody will ever be able to exactly duplicate every possible aspect of even the smallest prototype. Even if it was possible, who would want to wait around for hours before running the day's only train 'on schedule.' Nobody who models anything bigger than the old Jersey Central Bronx Freight House could possibly be a superdetail everything modeler, a perfect-to-prototype operator and cognizant of all the sociopolitical aspects of the operation, both model and real world.

It is important to realize that something that is crucial to one modeler is of no interest to another. Each of us makes personal decisions on what to emphasize, what to downgrade and what to ignore altogether. Outside of a dictatorship, no one else has the right to do that for us.

I leave you with a thought from Robert Heinlein's "Notebooks of Lazarus Long:"

A "Critic" is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this: he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

jflessne -

The cops don't have to knock any more. They can bust your door down, take your trains and run!!!! Supremes say so.

Tom

[Paul3]

To answer the smoking loco question, our club bans smoke units from our club. We used to have a G-scale layout that set up in our club during our open house while our layout was still being constructed. They all had smoke units.

They stank, they left residue everywhere (which gathers dust, mars paint, etc.), they didn't look a single bit like "real" loco smoke (steam or diesel), and they caused some members to have scratchy throats (and some of them have lung problems, so they really don't need this stuff to breathe).

Personally, I don't see any benefit to any current smoking loco on the market today. Even the old American Flyer or Lionel units never looked realistic. Look sometime at real steam or diesel smoke. Mostly, it's black or gray, not white.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[rayw46]

Actually SpaceMouse, I have. Maybe it wasn't literally over counting rivits, but putdowns of modelers for having the gall to even ask about Bachmann Digital, Atlas True Track, 4 x 8 layouts, etc. Most ot the time the modeler identified himself as entry level. To have someone jump down their throat because they weren't spending $1000 and devoting 1000 feet or more to a new layout is really uncalled for. But the forum is free and any one can say pretty much what they want.

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayw46

Actually SpaceMouse, I have. Maybe it wasn't literally over counting rivits, but putdowns of modelers for having the gall to even ask about Bachmann Digital, Atlas True Track, 4 x 8 layouts, etc. Most ot the time the modeler identified himself as entry level. To have someone jump down their throat because they weren't spending $1000 and devoting 1000 feet or more to a new layout is really uncalled for. But the forum is free and any one can say pretty much what they want.

Somebody jumped down somebodies throat over that stuff and you pin it on a "rivet counter"..

Sorry, that's stretching just a few miles too far...

Now I might be the least bit weird, but if someone says "hey that grab should be moved a few feet over on your model" I won't get all huffy like a 5 year old ballerina and show them the door (and then come here to complain[;)]) -- I'll inform them, the model is within my tolerance and I don't think moving that grab a few feet over is a major spotting feature of that model. If someone says those grabs should be a different color, instead of an insult I'll think of it as a detail painting project to do when I'm bored.

But that's just me -- I've grown rhino skin and what I do take with a few grains of salt rolls off my back.

Posting something in a forum like this is opening up to all sorts of things... People have opinions and if someone thinks flex-track is better than Tru-Track I don't see a reason why they should not post their opinion -- that's what this place is for...

[IRONROOSTER]

I have fond memories of Tyco. I started with a Tyco 4-6-0 and 0-6-0. Since I didn't know any better, I had a lot of fun with them. I still have them, but since I am in S scale I haven't run them in years. But I do run my Lionel train with smoke, whistle, and bell. It may not be realistic, but it's fun. It's all fun whether your scratchbuilding, kit building, or just watching them run. Heck, I may even give Operating a shot.
Enjoy
Paul

[twhite]

jflessne:
It really doesn't matter in the long run. You sound like a really nice guy who likes the hobby. GOOD FOR YOU!! Toy trains or Rivet Counters--hey, it's not important.

I'm a Rivet Counter in the fact that I want my steam locomotives to represent (mostly) actual prototypes. I'm also a Toy Train buff in the fact that I really DIG watching those locomotives charge around my Yuba River Sub pulling cars. I'm a train WATCHER. Just LOVE watching those big steamers pull long strings of freight or passenger cars through my faux-Sierra Nevada scenery.

So whatever you consider yourself, just ENJOY the hobby!! It's made for US and OUR enjoyment, not the nit-pickings of others. It's one of the most wonderfully PERSONAL pastimes I've ever encountered. What I do with my model railroad pleases me--if it doesn't please anyone else--well, that's THEIR problem, not mine.

Keep on TRAINING, my friend.
Tom
[:D][:D]

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Does it really matter? You do your thing, and I'll do mine. Just enjoy the hobby and ignore the nit pickers.

Bob Boudreau

[#ditto]

Your energy would probably be best placed in fighting the tendency to accept how others label you. If it makes them feel better about themselves, let them call you what they will. The hobby is a better place when we all find happiness in our own terms.

[jeffshultz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TMLEWI

jflessne -

The cops don't have to knock any more. They can bust your door down, take your trains and run!!!! Supremes say so.

Tom

That's actually not what the Supreme's said... if you actually care.

[gmcrail]

You know what? We're ALL playing "pretend" with toy trains! That includes the prototype modelers and the loop-and-a-loco crowd, and everyone in between and to all sides! We all just need to "get over ourselves", and get on with the hobby. I don't see that it matters what you have, as long as you enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it, take up golf, or philately (sp? - stamp collecting), or crocheting, or something, and sell your trains to me! [:D]

And my gramma always told me, "If you can't say something nice about someone, just keep your mouth shut!"

[2c]