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Why do I have to be a rivet counter or a toy train owner?

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Posted by joeyegarner on Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:14 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by Gumby4
To be honest, no matter how detailed one gets we are all just playing with toys.[:I]

[#ditto] Some people just like the correct number of toy rivets on the toy trains so they look good in the toy world created for them to run in (which is most often called a layout).[:)]


I get a lot of flac sometimes about my trains, ppl say " oh your playin with your trains" or "oh you have a train set" I cringe each time I hear it. They may be toys to a lot of ppl, only our almost-secret soceity know the truth!
Pay attention to what you read here, you may actually answer someone's question!
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 7:09 AM
When I get to the stage that I start measuring bits and pieces on my locos and rolling stock I will give the hobby away, the stress would take the fun out of the hobby.
Rivet Counters are one reason I have stayed away from clubs, both Railroad and Camera clubs, nothing worse than having some so called expert dude pawing over your photographs with a magnifying glass, I always find perfection boring.
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Posted by marknewton on Saturday, June 17, 2006 8:33 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by David Foster

the rivet counters do seem to have great skill at getting up a lot of peoples' noses.


You reckon? I 'd say no more or less than the "toy-trainers", the anti-prototype crowd, and the "conspiracists". I'm still waiting for anyone to cite an actual, unambiguous example of a so-called rivet counter disparaging a toy trainer. If we are to believe some of the posters on this thread, it's happening all the time - and yet I never seem to notice it. [;)]
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:34 AM
Why can't we all get along? Why would have to label yourself anyhow? You like model trains, PERIOD! There's always some unperceived notion that "certain" modelers feel intimidated by so called rivit counters. Most modelers know what level they're trying to achieve, some higher than others. Don't blame them for your shortcomings. You don't see Joe Fugate, Bob Grech,or Aggro-Jones (a few better modelers here), dissing someones stuff. There's always a" know it all" in anything you do, be it music, cars etc,but let them talk, you do what you like pal and don't worry about what category of modeler you are,it's your dime.
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:41 AM
You gotta love the conversations here.[^][:P][:-^]

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by cmarchan on Saturday, June 17, 2006 10:14 AM
The terms "rivet counter" and "toy train owner" are extreme terms. Most people in this hobby are neither, rather somewhere in-between. This hobby is very broad in terms of approach. Prototype modelers enjoy the challenge of creating as close a replica as possible of a building, loco, or rolling stock. Operating the trains is not paramount. Model Railroaders enjoy building the layout, scenery, trackwork, etc. Running the trains is more important to this group. MRs may have rolling stock with detail and weathering,some may not. It is really a matter of preference. Some of us are happy to have a diorama, a circle of track, or a locomotive sitting on our desk to connect us with our love of trains.

It is a blessing to be able to achieve all of our hobby goals. Some of us find scenery an extreme challenge; detailing, decaling and weathering can be frightening. For others it is a walk in the park. Electronics before DCC was elusive to the majority of modelers. However the interest was there; DCC is the proof. For those of us who wear the pocket protector (me), signaling, CTC, flashing lights and train detection were possible.

I believe however there are those involved in the hobby whom have made negative comments to those who do not share their philosophy. This is poison. Model Railroading should be shared with all. We come from different backgrounds, have different tastes, opinions, etc. We can learn from each other. If you can create an exact dupe of a PRR 4-4-2 sleeper with interior that's wonderful. Please don't discourage those who cannot, or don't have a desire to do the same. Find common ground with your fellow modeler. Teach each other the things you desire to acomplish but cannot do well now. If you read the hobby mags, you will notice the success of the best models, layouts, displays, etc, were achieved with TEAMWORK. This is a people-oriented hobby. Negativity leads to solitude. The former is more fun than the latter.

Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!

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Posted by jamnest on Saturday, June 17, 2006 10:52 AM
When I was invited to join a modular MRR club I fet very inferior because of my preconceived ideas that all MRR club members were "rivet counters". My club had some very skilled modelers. My actual experience was very different. I was made to feel an equal model railraoder. The members of the club were very friendly, offered help with my layout and invited me to assist with their layouts. I had the privilege to visit some very nice layouts in the KC area with some of my club members. Several of these layours have been fetured in MR magazines and videos. Imiagine my shock when I was invited to participate in an operating session.

The problem was my attitude based on rumor not expierence. I think we get in trouble when we paste labels on people. As a group, I find model railroaders to be very friendly people. These friendships are for me a major enjoyment of the hobby.

When I encounter a 'toy train operator" (what ever that may be), I give advice not criticism. My advice is this is a good way to do it, not the only way to do it! I have recommended Digitrax DCC to a lot of new MRR as the way to get started as I believe it offers maximun enjoyment of the hobby for the best cost. I don't pu***he point. I share my expiriences with DC vs DCC, and invite them to try before you buy on my layout.

JIm

Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.

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Posted by rayw46 on Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:25 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayw46

Actually SpaceMouse, I have. Maybe it wasn't literally over counting rivits, but putdowns of modelers for having the gall to even ask about Bachmann Digital, Atlas True Track, 4 x 8 layouts, etc. Most ot the time the modeler identified himself as entry level. To have someone jump down their throat because they weren't spending $1000 and devoting 1000 feet or more to a new layout is really uncalled for. But the forum is free and any one can say pretty much what they want.


Somebody jumped down somebodies throat over that stuff and you pin it on a "rivet counter"..

Sorry, that's stretching just a few miles too far...

Now I might be the least bit weird, but if someone says "hey that grab should be moved a few feet over on your model" I won't get all huffy like a 5 year old ballerina and show them the door (and then come here to complain[;)]) -- I'll inform them, the model is within my tolerance and I don't think moving that grab a few feet over is a major spotting feature of that model. If someone says those grabs should be a different color, instead of an insult I'll think of it as a detail painting project to do when I'm bored.

But that's just me -- I've grown rhino skin and what I do take with a few grains of salt rolls off my back.

Posting something in a forum like this is opening up to all sorts of things... People have opinions and if someone thinks flex-track is better than Tru-Track I don't see a reason why they should not post their opinion -- that's what this place is for...

Actuallly, I wasn't, "pinnig," the things I mentioned on the rivet counters, I was making a point about the attitude that some contributers seem to have toward those who have less experience, money and space for their model railroads. I do have to say that the vast majority of contributers are very nice and honestly want to help. But there are that few who will be quick to offer less than constructive criticism to those who don't meet theirs standards. Yes, if someone has an opinion, they have a right to voice it. But having a opinion only means you have a mind and can type; it doesn't make you right.
Shoot for the stars; so you miss, you are only lost in space.
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:59 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
Edit: I took so long to get this posted that David T. Beat me too the punch by 3 posts.

I hate it when that happens..... Which for me is often. I must type too slow....
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 3:09 PM
There's room for everybody in this hobby from one extreme to the other. You can be whatever the heck you want to be.
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Posted by tatans on Saturday, June 17, 2006 3:17 PM
Smoke coming from a steam engine ISN"T prototypical ? ? what could be more prototypical ? ? squeeks, grunts, hissing, squeals, coming from a steam engine that is a scale 1/2 mile from the listener? that is more prototypical???-----hardly, all that should be heard from a steamer at distance is a chuff-chuff and a couple of toots of a whistle. If I was to wish for an add-on to an HO loco it would be smoke and steam, and the more the better. Ignore those other bozo comments, and don't listen to the mindless comments of the respondents, have fun and do what you do.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 5:15 PM
who you calling mindless.bud? you don't know me to call me or anyone else here to call them anything! this is a forum,everyone's entitled to speak there mind, but name calling ,(ie:bozos) ,back off pal, I don't think you are mindless, but you're definitely TACTLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted by vsmith on Saturday, June 17, 2006 5:39 PM
Why do I have to be a rivet counter or a toy train owner?

I'm both, and niether[:D]

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by Paul3 on Saturday, June 17, 2006 7:06 PM
tatans,
I presume I'm one of the "mindless bozos" you're talking about. Nice personal attacks, BTW.

Back to the subject at hand... The smoke units that I've seen, including the new MTH K-4, are NOT realistic. Sorry. If you don't believe me, look at a real steam loco or a video of one. Smoke production on a real steam loco varies quite a bit in both volume and color. Now, the MTH is getting better (ie, more realistic), but smoke changes color and volume depending on the loco type, the load, and most importantly the fireman.

The MTH smoke unit does change it's volume (apparently, hard to judge from the video) and it is sychronized. But it's always white, and it's hardly the volume one would see on a real steam loco. Even tho' it's improved, it still looks like someone smoking a cigarette than a steam loco. Let me know when a model can do this, and maybe I'll change my mind:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-s1362bgs.jpg (A PRR K-4, oddly enough).

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

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Posted by tatans on Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:18 PM
RE: jfless negative comments to his prefernce to O gauge and smoke from locomotives, do the last 3 posts think I am referring to them ? well guys, sorry, it's not you, It's in reference to the extremely insensitive responses to his statement on his preferences "I guess if you like toy trains" talk about tactless ! And his comment on smoke was replied with "That's not prototypical " and again the toy train reference, unless you are the tactless, insensitive people that responded with the toy train anology, my comments do NOT apply to you, sorry. Hopefully this explains my response. tatans
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Posted by ModelTrainman on Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:32 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by cecinestpasjc

I don't think it matters, as long as you enjoy it. You're a model railroader regardless.
Yeah, i agree!
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Posted by davekelly on Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:53 PM
Rivet counter? Toy train owner? Nothing wrong with either - if being one or the other, or somewhere inbetween makes you happy - that's what matters. There are guys that enjoy the heck out of getting each detail exactly right on the model they are working on. They enjoy the research, the challenge, the use of a skill etc. Then there are guys that enjoy the heck out of running a Amtrack passenger car behind a 4-6-0 and have been doing so for years and years. Do what makes you happy and don't worry what label may be attached.

I think the problem is what has been pointed out above. When a person looks down and openly criticizes another for not doing things the same way as he/she does that's where the problem starts and that's why folks are leary of being labeled one or the other. I think it runs both ways. The "rivet counter" criticizing one for not having the right trucks on a box car and the "toy train owner" that suggests the detail oriented guy get a life. Both of these have the potential of making the hobby less fun.

There is a difference between saying "I prefer doing things this way because I really enjoy (pickone) just watching trains run and mixing up equipment/making my model as close to the prototype as I can" and "your way stinks." (I have actually never heard a person say these exact things, but use them to illustrate a point).

There's a place for everyone in this hobby!
If you ain't having fun, you're not doing it right and if you are having fun, don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 2:57 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy
When was the last time any HO company (besides IHC or Athearn) deliberately came out with a piece of rolling stock or engine that was of no known prototype, and catered ONLY to the toy train market?



Lifelike has Repainted a GP 38-2 in Australian National paint and no such protrtype exists.
They also repainted several freight cars.
So that is a little known toy train fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Collecters may be interested in them
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Posted by David_Telesha on Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:16 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy
When was the last time any HO company (besides IHC or Athearn) deliberately came out with a piece of rolling stock or engine that was of no known prototype, and catered ONLY to the toy train market?



Lifelike has Repainted a GP 38-2 in Australian National paint and no such protrtype exists.
They also repainted several freight cars.
So that is a little known toy train fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Collecters may be interested in them


And Walthers...no NH prototype exists for the HW COACH, and OBSERVATION they are doing in NH.
David Telesha New Haven Railroad - www.NHRHTA.org
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Posted by orsonroy on Sunday, June 18, 2006 6:23 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy
When was the last time any HO company (besides IHC or Athearn) deliberately came out with a piece of rolling stock or engine that was of no known prototype, and catered ONLY to the toy train market?



Lifelike has Repainted a GP 38-2 in Australian National paint and no such protrtype exists.
They also repainted several freight cars.
So that is a little known toy train fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Collecters may be interested in them


And Walthers...no NH prototype exists for the HW COACH, and OBSERVATION they are doing in NH.


I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. While those Walthers cars might not be in the correct paint scheme, they're at least decent models of real cars that actually existed once. Athearn, on the other hand, has produced freight cars, passenger cars, and engines that are "models" of NO KNOWN PROTOTYPE. They're complete fantasy cars.

Can a toy be a "model" if it isn't a model of anything?

Ray Breyer

Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 6:41 PM
It may be a model of what you think it should look like?
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Posted by PennsyHoosier on Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:03 PM
Good grief, not this again. I think I'll be a crivet or a rounter or something like that. Let's just enjoy the HOBBY!
Lawrence, The Pennsy Hoosier
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Posted by mustanggt on Sunday, June 18, 2006 10:42 PM
I'm in the middle. I buy prototypical and semi prototypical equipment, and I couldn't care less if a locomotive has one or two missing or incorrect details. All that matters to me is if the locomotive looks good from 2 or 3 feet away.

Some people strive for near-total realism; others just don't care too that extent. Neither of these is bad, they're just different. Besides, we all have one common bond, WE LOVE TRAINS[8D]

Dave
C280 rollin'
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Posted by PennsyHoosier on Sunday, June 18, 2006 10:49 PM
Amen, Dave. [:)]
Lawrence, The Pennsy Hoosier
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Posted by dinwitty on Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:24 PM
heh, I grew up on the ole Marx and Lionel O27 sharpie curves, but in the end it was more toyish. I moved to HO, that was the right move.
There is real scale O scale out there, but MTH is catering more to the Lionel like crowd, with some more prototypical stuff, but still running on 3 rail.
They have O scale South Shore cars but guess what, they look toyish and they have the usual silhouette people shading trick to cover the interior. Thats toy train style.
Well, its "Cute"

AAAAAHAAHA CUTY NUTTY!!!!

Technology has improved so much to allow better and better detail, so why the heck not.

I just know that the Lionel NYC 4-6-4 looks far more toyi***han the HO versions...

As a modeler now I am now being more pragmatic about detail quality and my current plans is high detail including the track it runs on, so Mr Average Atlas code 100 is out the door.
I want the Look. and to look right. If you want the midrange detail and price point, go for it.
I study IHC and everything to see if theres something useful for my modeling and IHC does!!!
Their 0-8-0 is a near dead ringer to the Belt Railway of Chicago 0-8-0, what stops me from buying it is the deep flanges. I have taken Rivarrosi Steamers and filed down the flanges so they could tread over Code 83 and 70.
Deep flanges come from the early days of the hobby, its the european standard NEM flanges also. The criss-cross between great detail and tru-scale criss-cross the midrange modelers who dont care and this causes true technical problems in
running your trains correctly.
Don't expect to drop your IHC deep flanged lokie on my code 40 rail, it wouldn't work!!!

Thats the problem.

Its all about how you want to model and have fun.
Were I to slap down a few loops of track and get rolling right away,...nyah, I'm not doing that, I have better goals.

cheers and have fun.



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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:29 PM
There are two ways to make yourself look good, 1) Do a better job than anyone else 2)Cut down the other person to make yourself look best. Do what ever your wallet and your talents will allow you to do, but always respect someone else's efforts. Everyone has different talents, and everyone is still learning. Enjoy the hobby first. Whenever I go to train shows there are a multitude of ideas and talents presented, but few are actually perfect.
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Posted by marknewton on Monday, June 19, 2006 6:09 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Smoke coming from a steam engine ISN"T prototypical ? ? what could be more prototypical ? ? squeeks, grunts, hissing, squeals, coming from a steam engine that is a scale 1/2 mile from the listener? that is more prototypical???-----hardly, all that should be heard from a steamer at distance is a chuff-chuff and a couple of toots of a whistle.

tatans, do tell, how many times have you personally witnessed a main-line steam loco passing a half mile away? My guess is never, or you wouldn't make sweeping statements about what should or shouldn't be audible at that distance. My house is just over 1/2 mile from the railway, and on those rare days when my engines were running and I was booked off, I could clearly hear all sorts of things as they climbed the 1-in-75 bank past my place. ( Links to images of the locos I used to run below. )

http://marknewton01.fotopic.net/p3411075.html
http://marknewton01.fotopic.net/p3907507.html

Cheers,

Mark.
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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, June 19, 2006 10:19 AM
When I was a kid I could tell a PRR whistle from a B&O,C&O or N&W whistle..
As far as smoke..A lot of railroads had no smoke rules where a fireman was to keep the smoke to a bear minimum.Happy was the fireman that could keep a "clean" stack.
As far as the question..I consider myself a model railroader and not a rivet or toy train owner even though I am a adult that likes to play with toy trains according to the general public's view of model railroaders..I can live with that.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by Newyorkcentralfan on Monday, June 19, 2006 4:13 PM
Well a lot of modelers have a nasty habit of sticking their models in other peoples faces and asking them what they think of them.

Then they get upset when they're given an honest and forthright opinion and appraisal.
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, June 19, 2006 4:23 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Newyorkcentralfan

Well a lot of modelers have a nasty habit of sticking their models in other peoples faces and asking them what they think of them.

Then they get upset when they're given an honest and forthright opinion and appraisal.



The MR equivalent of

"Does this make me look fat?"

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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