The topic of live steam came up on another thread, which got me wondering, does anyone on the MR forums do live steam or other outdoor, ride on model trains
Often at Train Mountain (were I run 1:8 scale stuff) the topic of smaller scales of model railroading comes up so I know overlap exists. Still I expect many have never heard of the live steam hobby.
Feel free to respond with how much you’ve heard of live steam. Do you have any locomotive/rolling stock? Are you building something or would you ever build something?
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I used to.
Kids grew up and weren't interested, got to be too much to maintain, a buyer came along at the right time.
F7_Inch-half4 by Edmund, on Flickr
It WAS fun while it lasted (late '70s - early 1980s)
F7_Inch-half5 by Edmund, on Flickr
Ours was 1.6" scale, 7 ½" gauge.
Chessie8550 by Edmund, on Flickr
Had a couple friends with live steam but I never had the time or money to build anything like that. There were quite a few club layouts in NE Ohio.
Thank You, Ed
Wow, that’s some nice F units. It’s difficult to get the perfect F unit nose, a lot of bad models out their. Yours look quite nice, not perfect (non are) but I’ve seen a lot worse! That Chessie geez is nice too!
F.Y.I I also do 7 1/2 inch gauge (I think). It’s about the best scale, large enough to ride but not so large that it’s overly expensive.
Though discussion is not as busy there as it is here, you may find more people who follow that particular branch of the hobby in our sister forum, Garden Railways.
darn it, even I can't make that link "live"... go here:http://cs.trains.com/grw/f/91.aspx
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Model Railroader up to and during the Linn Westcott era used to carry a fair amount of coverage about "live steam" sized trains (3/4" scale, 1" scale, 1 1/2" scale and so on -- referred to as live steam commonly even if there is no steam). Indeed a fair number of MR covers showed such large scale trains. I can't speak for the Garden Railways forum, but the magazine carries little or nothing about these trains, which when well done they have more in common with scale model railroading than with garden railroads, in my opinion. The Milwaukee Light Engineering Society "layout" for example has sidings and a signal system and the members have even had operating sessions in the "model railroad" sense of the word.
http://www.mlesrr.org/MLES_Site/explore_mles/about_mles.php
Dave Nelson
There is a live steam club southwest of St. Missouri.
Wabash, Frisco and Pacific Railroad Association
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Steven Otte Though discussion is not as busy there as it is here, you may find more people who follow that particular branch of the hobby in our sister forum, Garden Railways. darn it, even I can't make that link "live"... go here:http://cs.trains.com/grw/f/91.aspx
Good idea Steve! Nonetheless I think it would be interesting to keep this conversation on the MR forums, I want to see how much overlap there is between Live Steam and smaller scale model railroading. May head over to garden railways if I get the urge...
A few years ago one of the ”layouts” in MR was a large 7 1/2“ gauge pike in Michigan if I recall correctly. I though it was weird that it was in MR, which usually focuses on smaller scales. I don’t know how much Live Steam appears in Garden Railways, but a few glances at their website looks to me like they rarely cover it if at all. There is one Live Steam magazine, called “Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading”, but it’s not made by Kalmbach. I would welcome a bit of live steam from time to time in MR but I’m sure a lot of folks would find it strange.
My personal outdoor stuff is 1:20.3, so not big enough to ride on.
But people certainly know about live steam around here. One of my division's (Illinois Terminal Division)
members does live steam. Not sure of exact scale, but too small to ride on as it runs on LGB track. I could see doing this size live steam, but have no current plans.
Larger scale ride-on trains are around here. Our division visited a outdoor layout in Decatur a few years back and it was a blast. Way outta my league, but if I ever did something that size, I'd probably go diesel.
Here is our engineer that day getting up steam.
Engineer's cab view
Out on the main
This fellow is an engineer on one of the Decatur-area shortlines. He's running behind a model of an Illinois Terminal freight-motor, on battery power, because that pesky caternary would just get in your way.
I think the reason IIRC that the Michigan line was in MR was that they featured operations, which would be really cool since you'd be able to ride the train to your next set-out, and maybe there was an NMRA convention in Michigan that year?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Something I would love to do, but I don't have the time, the $$$, or the space. I do have a 17HP engine in storage to build a diesel outline, but is in the future. I was a member of HALS for a year, but the hour and a half drive made it difficult to participate to the extent I wanted.
SPSOT fanYours look quite nice, not perfect
What did I do wrong?
Just in case I decide to build another. I want to be sure I make no mistakes.
F7_Inch-half8 by Edmund, on Flickr
F7_Inch-half7 by Edmund, on Flickr
Your input would be helpful.
Thank you, Ed
I think it looks fine Ed. Everybody is so opinated on F units, look at all the endless discussion that goes with the HO scale versions.
Everyone has their own idea of the "correct" F unit. NOBODY has shown it too me yet, because NOBODY can agree on just what the "perfect" F unit looks like. I've asked in a couple of different threads.
I Remember in a nother thread, SPSOT considered himself a "recovering rivet counter"
Ask a rivet counter just what a perfect F unit is, than step back as other rivet counters join in. It goes on and on and on.
They are all mighty quick to tell what "is not" the perfect F unit.
Mike.
My You Tube
Here's another for live steam, south of Nashville, TN
Heck, if you want to see a large model diesel... just take your riding lawn mower for a spin!
Jim
mbinsewiEverybody is so opinated on F units, look at all the endless discussion that goes with the HO scale versions.
Even EMD seems to have struggled to get it "right" - the bulldog nose on Es and Fs was not a casting but was formed and it is not uncommon to see photos of a bunch of engines at a terminal all nicely lined up -- AND see distinct if subtle differences in the nose contours!
I said it wasn’t perfect because I’ve been told that no one has made a good f unit nose. I’m not an expert on what f unit noses should look like but I have friends who are planning one buying an f7 and I know they are having trouble getting one with a correct nose. Now that I take a closer look at your engine I can’t find anything wrong with it, though I’m not an expert.
Also what material is your engine made of?
SPSOT fanAlso what material is your engine made of?
My "Former" engine. Sold it back in the 1980s.
It was a Fiberglas shell with resin details cast in place and smaller details cemented in place.
F7_Inch-half11 by Edmund, on Flickr
Yes, that nose controversy has been going on a long time. I'm not about to scrap all my Proto E units or Stewart and Intermountain Fs. I have many Genesis (Hilighliners) Fs too. There may be slight differences in them but they all look pretty good overall.
Cheers, Ed
gmpullman SPSOT fan Yours look quite nice, not perfect What did I do wrong? Just in case I decide to build another. I want to be sure I make no mistakes. F7_Inch-half8 by Edmund, on Flickr F7_Inch-half7 by Edmund, on Flickr Your input would be helpful. Thank you, Ed
SPSOT fan Yours look quite nice, not perfect
SPSOT fan I said it wasn’t perfect because I’ve been told that no one has made a good f unit nose. I’m not an expert on what f unit noses should look like but I have friends who are planning one buying an f7 and I know they are having trouble getting one with a correct nose. Now that I take a closer look at your engine I can’t find anything wrong with it, though I’m not an expert.
Rich
Alton Junction
I really shouldn’t have said anything about the f being incoerect. I assumed (stupidly) that is was metal and I knew metal shells were almost alway featuring some discrepancies. Fiberglass in the other hand generally get very good detail. I personally would never get one because the windows are usually blocked of, but aside from that I think the f is very good. I sincerely hope no offense was take from any of my comments!
SPSOT fanI sincerely hope no offense was take from any of my comments!
Not at all... I just thought if you spotted something I was curious as to what caught your eye.
SPSOT fan I personally would never get one because the windows are usually blocked of, but aside from that I think the f is very good.
We gave that some consideration and decided a full cab interior was too much hassle. At a distance the dark window tint looks just fine, you get used to it.
These guys know how to have fun:
One of the members there has a beautiful Pennsylvania K4 and several sharp looking Pennsy passenger cars to haul with it. Another fellow has a huge Q2 that is equally impressive.
Regards, Ed
I have dabbled in ride on scale, it is very expensive to get started and very heavy. Called by many the Hernia Gauge for good reason. I sold my gas/hydrostatic diesel and track, but kept my Miniature Train Co crossing signal. I hope to get one of the G12 trains and portable track in a couple years and convert it to battery electric. The noise kept me from enjoying it much due to my free time being later in the evening/night time. Nobody wants to hear a small gas engine at 11pm at night. I do enjoy live steam operation in G scale and I am planning a new raised line with wider radius curves to replace the really small line I have now with tight radius curves. Here is my crossing signal for your enjoyment. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I bought a steam engine a few years back. I was a member of the illinois live steamers for a while. Was too far away to make the time to go. The engine is in my garage waiting for the time.
Steve
I wanted to get into live steam. When I realized I needed over 10 grand or more on a steam locomotive plus the added 100 man hours. To make a pre-post steamliner NYC 4-6-4 Hudson with a few freight cars and caboose.
By watching a few videos, I knew that I couldn't make/manufacturer pieces and parts with a blow torch and etc. Since I don't have the tools, experience and know how to build one from scratch.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
You say that YOU have been told no one has made a 'good' F Unit nose? --Pardon me?
Why do you unquestioningly believe this (rubbish) to be true? And without further primary research on your part? All I can do to respond to that is start with a ...sigh!
There actually is an indisputably "good" F Unit nose, and it was done in H0 scale over 20 years ago. Kindly Google: "Highlinersonline.com" please.
Click on the above (and then again!) for some (ahem) enlarging and then do compare with prototype images. Kindly remember, these models are true H0 Scale (Half-"0", as in half-zero) and are only 6 inches long overall.
These models are (were) so good, there now are six or seven Chinese-made "knock-offs" of the contours. Go ahead and try file a copyright lawsuit with that as the reality of the situation!
Now to the matter at hand, the problem with this "Big Stuff" is manifold. Counter intuitive as it may seem, the larger the model the more difficult it is to get it all (contours remember) within acceptable tolerances.
25 YEARS ago, I re-sculpted a commercial 1-1/2" cast aluminum F Unit nose for my friend Scotty Lewis, President of the Chula Vista (Ca.) Live Steamers. It took a LOT of aluminum/epoxy putty and resulted in many clogged rasps, "sure-forms" etc. in order to to get it just right. But now it is right. Hopefully one day, we'll see a beautiful AT&SF Warbonnet F7 running down the tracks there in Rohr Park.
AS to the one pictured: Ed's, well, as Ed did ask, I shall scrutinize: We will keep it (for brevity) to only two aspects of those nose contours.
THE PROTOTYPE: Although as someone has pointed out above, no two F Unit nose were absolutely identical, the results were more a matter of precisely when the locomotives were manufactured as fabrication techniques changed on the shop floor and tooling for the stampings wore and were replaced. As with all things manufactured, there were acceptable tolerances. And using that as the standard as stated, yes there has been a more than "good" F unit made in H0 Scale, as shown above.
The EMD Windshield glass contour was laid out on an X-Y grid map. All "French Curve" stuff that. A set of contours that simply cannot be argued with. But the windshield sweep, rake and droop angles did vary, just no more than 1 degree or so over the production life of the "Bulldog Nose".
That said, the F9 windshields were decidedly (as in 1 degree) more vertical than earlier models. But the nose contours themselves varied no more than the holding fixtures permitted for accurate welding.
Ed's 1/8th scale, F Unit: The thing was bought, so who's fault is it? Well, Ed could have corrected these flaws relatively easily had he desired to make the thing more realistic. Of course one would have to be something of a sculptor to do so, and most train guys simply aren't.
To my eye, there are TWO glaring contour flaws The first are the "Cheek Bones". These are almost horizontal on Ed's model (pictured below and in RED) while they should descend towards the front at a steeper 2-3 degree angle (the A.A.R. "Signal Green" lines depicted at the correct angle). That single modification would significantly change the flow and form of all of the other nose contours.
Also, the top of the nose surfaces flanking the headlight are too convex and should be somewhat less bulbous (that "Signal Green" arc).
To gauge just how much, I'd suggest viewing the nose contours by using the reflected surfaces whenever possible. That is a sculptor's technique not widely known nor discussed. It will reveal the true shape of any object, regardless of complexity!
Both of these aspects are visibly correct on the Highliners F Unit nose and is easily seen (follow those highlights!) with the F3 Phase I nose, pictured above in this response. Both of those photos were taken directly from their website.
There are other detail errors, but correct those two nose-contour features, and the overall model would be significantly enhanced, with a visibly greater accuracy when compared with images of the original, 1939 Art-Deco EMD FT nose form.
--M405
Well I'd say the OP's question has gone sideways enough to officially be classified as derailed
Moutaineer... Your pictures do not show up. There is a sticky thread that lays out the way to post a photo in the forum.
All I see is a box that gives me a 404 error when I click on it.
Anyhow... this thread is over a year old, and I could not figure out if you were responding to Ed (GMPullman) or Isaac (SPSOT Fan).
I have two Highliner A units and a B unit, and while the kits have the wonderful ability to build into any F unit, I'll be darned if I can see any differences in the nose from my Stewart/Kato units... good enough for me.
Maybe I am just blissfully ignorant.
-Kevin (SeeYou190)
Living the dream.
Mountaineer405YOURS: You bought the thing so is it your fault? Well, yes as you could have corrected these flaws relatively easily had you desired to make the thing more realistic.
I sold them, caveat emptor. I never gave the nose contour any thought. They looked just fine to me.
These were my other options:
Warbonnet by Edmund, on Flickr
F_nose by Edmund, on Flickr
I believe I chose wisely.
Thank you for your critique, though.
16 years ago, my son and I often attended outdoor garden/live steam events.
They loved my son, because he was so fascinated, he'd get right up close to the live steam engines, but never touch them.
Bottom line: the outdoor railroad we had was expensive, my son didn't play with it much, the narrow gauge live steam engines of course were REALLY expensive, and so by his age 4 or 5 we had transitioned back to HO model railroading.
The grass is growing up through the last remnants of real limestone ballast in my backyard. We have our very own ghost railroad path in the yard.
The guys who were into it then got old and decided they could no longer maintain the outdoor layouts, and some of them too went back to HO.
They were beautiful summer Saturdays, that I will always remember fondly--real WWII vintage fighters: F4U Corsairs and P-51 Mustangs, flying overhead near Bel Air, Maryland at Roger Cutter's house--while we ran the trains.
John Mock
I'd love to have something big enough to ride on. But I don't have enough room to run any sort of track. There is a nearby group that has both of the smaller ride on scales as well as 18" gauge. And the Pennsylvania Live Steamers isn;t that far from me. I'd probably go with a gas/hydraulic drive diesel (or maybe use a small diesel - they DO make such engines for things).
I did see a beautiful set of SD40-2s at Timonium once. They even had MU connections of a sort - the second unit had hydraulic motors on the axles, but no engine and pump, it slaved on to the first unit. They were fpr sale, for a very attractive price, but I didn;t have my truck or a trailer to load them on - and it was still far more money than I was willing to spend at one shot on a hobby.
The place near me does have poublic open houses a couple times a year (not this year, unfortunately) so I've gotten to ride on various trains. Not sure how they are managing when other groups have completely discontinued any public open houses mainly for insurance reasons. In addition to the outdoors stuff, they also have an indoor O scale (2 rail) layout that is literally a museum of the history of O scale - they have things made in the 30's all the way up to the latest Atlas and MTH 2 rail O.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
For a ride-on-trains hobby, I am seriously considering a Fairmont Speeder and formally abandoning my 7 1/2" gauge 2-8-2.
There is a beautifully restored speeder for sale in Bonita Springs right now for $5,000.00.
I have ridden along on a couple of speeder events in the Scale Rails of Southwest Florida speeder back in the day. It was a lot of fun.
-Kevin