Issac, firstly you do mean "none (F Unit noses) are perfect" don't you? And you are wrong in that regard as the Highliner's F Unit nose is demonstrably, objectively perfect.
--M405
A lot more than "10 Grand", or "100 hours" are required to acquire such "things". Trust me, on that.
Kevin,
I am sorry but I feel your innability to readily descern those rather obvious differences between the Kato F Unit nose and the Highliners F Unit nose is unfortunate.
From the Highliners website kindly view the now uploaded nose images in my first blog post in this thread. Note too, it is the only "Thin Wall" F Unit cab (in plastic) and the singular F Unit with true, flush-fitting glass.
For too long this hobby has had to live with the unfortunate stigma that goes along with the term; "Toy Trains".
I believe this stigma too be the actual impetus for a great many towards fine-scale modelling. Otherwise, "make-believe" is the rule, and all the many negative connotaions that go with that term.
Sncerely, the 1987-introduced Kato nose was never hailed as "accurate". I suppose it is O.K., but it is proportionately too narrow, the windows are positioned considerably (by several scale inches) too high and inset too deeply. The pilot is much too wide below the quarter round, there is no requisite centerline vertical crease, the parting line is just awful... I can go on.
From my experience, sculptors see these variations both immediately and as glaring differences. Thank you.
My biggest hurdle to the speeder purchase is that my little Colorado really cannot pull it. The one in Bonita Springs also does not include a trailer.
I would need to rent a truck every time I went somewhere, and it I travel out-of-state, which I want to do, that would get expensive.
I really do not want to buy another vehicle.
I am sure this speeder ambition will pass soon. Just having a nice one so close by at a reasonable price is sparking desire.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Ed, since you are speaking in the past tense, I assume that he is no longer with us. If so, sorry for your loss.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks, Rich
That was Mr. Edison. He was a cat of few words and he was friendly and a loyal companion. Another rescue from the GE plant where I worked.
Regards, Ed
Good looking cat, Ed.
SeeYou190I have ridden along on a couple of speeder events in the Scale Rails of Southwest Florida speeder back in the day. It was a lot of fun.
Had my share of speeder fun, too. Brought it home and the cat took over.
IMG_3144 by Edmund, on Flickr
Once the cat claimed it I couldn't get it back
Edison by Edmund, on Flickr
For a ride-on-trains hobby, I am seriously considering a Fairmont Speeder and formally abandoning my 7 1/2" gauge 2-8-2.
There is a beautifully restored speeder for sale in Bonita Springs right now for $5,000.00.
I have ridden along on a couple of speeder events in the Scale Rails of Southwest Florida speeder back in the day. It was a lot of fun.
I'd love to have something big enough to ride on. But I don't have enough room to run any sort of track. There is a nearby group that has both of the smaller ride on scales as well as 18" gauge. And the Pennsylvania Live Steamers isn;t that far from me. I'd probably go with a gas/hydraulic drive diesel (or maybe use a small diesel - they DO make such engines for things).
I did see a beautiful set of SD40-2s at Timonium once. They even had MU connections of a sort - the second unit had hydraulic motors on the axles, but no engine and pump, it slaved on to the first unit. They were fpr sale, for a very attractive price, but I didn;t have my truck or a trailer to load them on - and it was still far more money than I was willing to spend at one shot on a hobby.
The place near me does have poublic open houses a couple times a year (not this year, unfortunately) so I've gotten to ride on various trains. Not sure how they are managing when other groups have completely discontinued any public open houses mainly for insurance reasons. In addition to the outdoors stuff, they also have an indoor O scale (2 rail) layout that is literally a museum of the history of O scale - they have things made in the 30's all the way up to the latest Atlas and MTH 2 rail O.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
16 years ago, my son and I often attended outdoor garden/live steam events.
They loved my son, because he was so fascinated, he'd get right up close to the live steam engines, but never touch them.
Bottom line: the outdoor railroad we had was expensive, my son didn't play with it much, the narrow gauge live steam engines of course were REALLY expensive, and so by his age 4 or 5 we had transitioned back to HO model railroading.
The grass is growing up through the last remnants of real limestone ballast in my backyard. We have our very own ghost railroad path in the yard.
The guys who were into it then got old and decided they could no longer maintain the outdoor layouts, and some of them too went back to HO.
They were beautiful summer Saturdays, that I will always remember fondly--real WWII vintage fighters: F4U Corsairs and P-51 Mustangs, flying overhead near Bel Air, Maryland at Roger Cutter's house--while we ran the trains.
John Mock
Mountaineer405YOURS: You bought the thing so is it your fault? Well, yes as you could have corrected these flaws relatively easily had you desired to make the thing more realistic.
I sold them, caveat emptor. I never gave the nose contour any thought. They looked just fine to me.
These were my other options:
Warbonnet by Edmund, on Flickr
F_nose by Edmund, on Flickr
I believe I chose wisely.
Thank you for your critique, though.
Cheers, Ed
Moutaineer... Your pictures do not show up. There is a sticky thread that lays out the way to post a photo in the forum.
All I see is a box that gives me a 404 error when I click on it.
Anyhow... this thread is over a year old, and I could not figure out if you were responding to Ed (GMPullman) or Isaac (SPSOT Fan).
I have two Highliner A units and a B unit, and while the kits have the wonderful ability to build into any F unit, I'll be darned if I can see any differences in the nose from my Stewart/Kato units... good enough for me.
Maybe I am just blissfully ignorant.
-Kevin (SeeYou190)
Well I'd say the OP's question has gone sideways enough to officially be classified as derailed
You say that YOU have been told no one has made a 'good' F Unit nose? --Pardon me?
Why do you unquestioningly believe this (rubbish) to be true? And without further primary research on your part? All I can do to respond to that is start with a ...sigh!
There actually is an indisputably "good" F Unit nose, and it was done in H0 scale over 20 years ago. Kindly Google: "Highlinersonline.com" please.
Click on the above (and then again!) for some (ahem) enlarging and then do compare with prototype images. Kindly remember, these models are true H0 Scale (Half-"0", as in half-zero) and are only 6 inches long overall.
These models are (were) so good, there now are six or seven Chinese-made "knock-offs" of the contours. Go ahead and try file a copyright lawsuit with that as the reality of the situation!
Now to the matter at hand, the problem with this "Big Stuff" is manifold. Counter intuitive as it may seem, the larger the model the more difficult it is to get it all (contours remember) within acceptable tolerances.
25 YEARS ago, I re-sculpted a commercial 1-1/2" cast aluminum F Unit nose for my friend Scotty Lewis, President of the Chula Vista (Ca.) Live Steamers. It took a LOT of aluminum/epoxy putty and resulted in many clogged rasps, "sure-forms" etc. in order to to get it just right. But now it is right. Hopefully one day, we'll see a beautiful AT&SF Warbonnet F7 running down the tracks there in Rohr Park.
AS to the one pictured: Ed's, well, as Ed did ask, I shall scrutinize: We will keep it (for brevity) to only two aspects of those nose contours.
THE PROTOTYPE: Although as someone has pointed out above, no two F Unit nose were absolutely identical, the results were more a matter of precisely when the locomotives were manufactured as fabrication techniques changed on the shop floor and tooling for the stampings wore and were replaced. As with all things manufactured, there were acceptable tolerances. And using that as the standard as stated, yes there has been a more than "good" F unit made in H0 Scale, as shown above.
The EMD Windshield glass contour was laid out on an X-Y grid map. All "French Curve" stuff that. A set of contours that simply cannot be argued with. But the windshield sweep, rake and droop angles did vary, just no more than 1 degree or so over the production life of the "Bulldog Nose".
That said, the F9 windshields were decidedly (as in 1 degree) more vertical than earlier models. But the nose contours themselves varied no more than the holding fixtures permitted for accurate welding.
Ed's 1/8th scale, F Unit: The thing was bought, so who's fault is it? Well, Ed could have corrected these flaws relatively easily had he desired to make the thing more realistic. Of course one would have to be something of a sculptor to do so, and most train guys simply aren't.
To my eye, there are TWO glaring contour flaws The first are the "Cheek Bones". These are almost horizontal on Ed's model (pictured below and in RED) while they should descend towards the front at a steeper 2-3 degree angle (the A.A.R. "Signal Green" lines depicted at the correct angle). That single modification would significantly change the flow and form of all of the other nose contours.
Also, the top of the nose surfaces flanking the headlight are too convex and should be somewhat less bulbous (that "Signal Green" arc).
To gauge just how much, I'd suggest viewing the nose contours by using the reflected surfaces whenever possible. That is a sculptor's technique not widely known nor discussed. It will reveal the true shape of any object, regardless of complexity!
Both of these aspects are visibly correct on the Highliners F Unit nose and is easily seen (follow those highlights!) with the F3 Phase I nose, pictured above in this response. Both of those photos were taken directly from their website.
There are other detail errors, but correct those two nose-contour features, and the overall model would be significantly enhanced, with a visibly greater accuracy when compared with images of the original, 1939 Art-Deco EMD FT nose form.
I wanted to get into live steam. When I realized I needed over 10 grand or more on a steam locomotive plus the added 100 man hours. To make a pre-post steamliner NYC 4-6-4 Hudson with a few freight cars and caboose.
By watching a few videos, I knew that I couldn't make/manufacturer pieces and parts with a blow torch and etc. Since I don't have the tools, experience and know how to build one from scratch.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
I bought a steam engine a few years back. I was a member of the illinois live steamers for a while. Was too far away to make the time to go. The engine is in my garage waiting for the time.
Steve
I have dabbled in ride on scale, it is very expensive to get started and very heavy. Called by many the Hernia Gauge for good reason. I sold my gas/hydrostatic diesel and track, but kept my Miniature Train Co crossing signal. I hope to get one of the G12 trains and portable track in a couple years and convert it to battery electric. The noise kept me from enjoying it much due to my free time being later in the evening/night time. Nobody wants to hear a small gas engine at 11pm at night. I do enjoy live steam operation in G scale and I am planning a new raised line with wider radius curves to replace the really small line I have now with tight radius curves. Here is my crossing signal for your enjoyment. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
SPSOT fanI sincerely hope no offense was take from any of my comments!
Not at all... I just thought if you spotted something I was curious as to what caught your eye.
SPSOT fan I personally would never get one because the windows are usually blocked of, but aside from that I think the f is very good.
We gave that some consideration and decided a full cab interior was too much hassle. At a distance the dark window tint looks just fine, you get used to it.
These guys know how to have fun:
One of the members there has a beautiful Pennsylvania K4 and several sharp looking Pennsy passenger cars to haul with it. Another fellow has a huge Q2 that is equally impressive.
I really shouldn’t have said anything about the f being incoerect. I assumed (stupidly) that is was metal and I knew metal shells were almost alway featuring some discrepancies. Fiberglass in the other hand generally get very good detail. I personally would never get one because the windows are usually blocked of, but aside from that I think the f is very good. I sincerely hope no offense was take from any of my comments!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
gmpullman SPSOT fan Yours look quite nice, not perfect What did I do wrong? Just in case I decide to build another. I want to be sure I make no mistakes. F7_Inch-half8 by Edmund, on Flickr F7_Inch-half7 by Edmund, on Flickr Your input would be helpful. Thank you, Ed
SPSOT fan Yours look quite nice, not perfect
What did I do wrong?
Just in case I decide to build another. I want to be sure I make no mistakes.
F7_Inch-half8 by Edmund, on Flickr
F7_Inch-half7 by Edmund, on Flickr
Your input would be helpful.
Thank you, Ed
SPSOT fan I said it wasn’t perfect because I’ve been told that no one has made a good f unit nose. I’m not an expert on what f unit noses should look like but I have friends who are planning one buying an f7 and I know they are having trouble getting one with a correct nose. Now that I take a closer look at your engine I can’t find anything wrong with it, though I’m not an expert.
I said it wasn’t perfect because I’ve been told that no one has made a good f unit nose. I’m not an expert on what f unit noses should look like but I have friends who are planning one buying an f7 and I know they are having trouble getting one with a correct nose. Now that I take a closer look at your engine I can’t find anything wrong with it, though I’m not an expert.
SPSOT fanAlso what material is your engine made of?
My "Former" engine. Sold it back in the 1980s.
It was a Fiberglas shell with resin details cast in place and smaller details cemented in place.
F7_Inch-half11 by Edmund, on Flickr
Yes, that nose controversy has been going on a long time. I'm not about to scrap all my Proto E units or Stewart and Intermountain Fs. I have many Genesis (Hilighliners) Fs too. There may be slight differences in them but they all look pretty good overall.
Also what material is your engine made of?
mbinsewiEverybody is so opinated on F units, look at all the endless discussion that goes with the HO scale versions.
Even EMD seems to have struggled to get it "right" - the bulldog nose on Es and Fs was not a casting but was formed and it is not uncommon to see photos of a bunch of engines at a terminal all nicely lined up -- AND see distinct if subtle differences in the nose contours!
Dave Nelson
Here's another for live steam, south of Nashville, TN
Heck, if you want to see a large model diesel... just take your riding lawn mower for a spin!
Jim
I think it looks fine Ed. Everybody is so opinated on F units, look at all the endless discussion that goes with the HO scale versions.
Everyone has their own idea of the "correct" F unit. NOBODY has shown it too me yet, because NOBODY can agree on just what the "perfect" F unit looks like. I've asked in a couple of different threads.
I Remember in a nother thread, SPSOT considered himself a "recovering rivet counter"
Ask a rivet counter just what a perfect F unit is, than step back as other rivet counters join in. It goes on and on and on.
They are all mighty quick to tell what "is not" the perfect F unit.
Mike.
My You Tube
SPSOT fanYours look quite nice, not perfect
Something I would love to do, but I don't have the time, the $$$, or the space. I do have a 17HP engine in storage to build a diesel outline, but is in the future. I was a member of HALS for a year, but the hour and a half drive made it difficult to participate to the extent I wanted.
My personal outdoor stuff is 1:20.3, so not big enough to ride on.
But people certainly know about live steam around here. One of my division's (Illinois Terminal Division)
members does live steam. Not sure of exact scale, but too small to ride on as it runs on LGB track. I could see doing this size live steam, but have no current plans.
Larger scale ride-on trains are around here. Our division visited a outdoor layout in Decatur a few years back and it was a blast. Way outta my league, but if I ever did something that size, I'd probably go diesel.
Here is our engineer that day getting up steam.
Engineer's cab view
Out on the main
This fellow is an engineer on one of the Decatur-area shortlines. He's running behind a model of an Illinois Terminal freight-motor, on battery power, because that pesky caternary would just get in your way.
I think the reason IIRC that the Michigan line was in MR was that they featured operations, which would be really cool since you'd be able to ride the train to your next set-out, and maybe there was an NMRA convention in Michigan that year?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL