Paul3Might I suggest building an assembly jig next time you feel you have to build 20 of anything?
If an assembly jig is needed to assemble the chairs, this would require more scratch-building from a bunch of sticks. So I think the jig should have been included in the kit
[quote user="maxman"]
Paul3 Might I suggest building an assembly jig next time you feel you have to build 20 of anything?
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Can't post anymore....My time is too valuable.......
Take Care, All.
Frank
Paul3 jecorbett,Who said you had to buy the chairs? Going back to the first post, you said you bought the store ($108 MSRP) then purchased the separate interior detail set ($37.50 MSRP) that is properly listed as a kit: "HO Dubois Store Interior: Interior kit includes shelves, tables, chairs and counters for a retail store and restaurant." http://www.branchline-trains.com/laserart-structures/commercial/commercial-ho.html You didn't have to buy the interior kit to complete the structure. You paid extra to get a superdetailing kit, and then you're shocked to learn that you have to put it together. Why did you buy it? Did you think someone was going to build it for you? I seriously checked the date to make sure this wasn't an April Fools joke. Do you know how many HO structures ever get interiors? Very few, compared to the number of structures made every year. Most modelers are satisfied with the exterior walls of any structure. Not many take the time, effort, and money to actually install any interior in a stucture, but you forked out $37.50 for what are obviously laser cut wood parts from a laser cut wood company that clearly shows all 20 HO-scale wooden (not resin, not metal, not plastic) chairs on the website. Did you seriously think they'd be assembled for you? Does Branchline make any RTR structures? What led you to think this was not a kit?Squeaky wheels may get the grease, but wheels that don't work get replaced.Might I suggest building an assembly jig next time you feel you have to build 20 of anything? That would have been the most efficient way to build those chairs. And who is saying that it's "cheating" to buy plastic chairs? Over and over again on this thread of yours, people are telling you to buy the plastic chairs if it makes you happy. You're the one ranting here, claiming that Branchline is cheating you. And for the record, there were no laser cut chairs (or anything else) 50 years ago. In the "old days", any modeler that wanted chairs would have scratchbuilt them. Having the pieces already laser cut for you is a huge advancement in this hobby that you refuse to acknowledge. Did you over open an Ambroid kit? Or a Campbell kit from back in the day? Talk about a box of sticks. You might have gotten some die stamped wood sheets, but that was about it.Geared Steam,Next, we'll be hearing about how someone at an expensive restaurant ordered a big piece of juicy prime rib only to find that it arrived at their table without the waiter cutting the steak into bite-sized pieces first. Hey, after all, it's an expensive meal; it should come "ready to eat"... maxman,Good point. Paul A. Cutler III
jecorbett,Who said you had to buy the chairs? Going back to the first post, you said you bought the store ($108 MSRP) then purchased the separate interior detail set ($37.50 MSRP) that is properly listed as a kit: "HO Dubois Store Interior: Interior kit includes shelves, tables, chairs and counters for a retail store and restaurant."
http://www.branchline-trains.com/laserart-structures/commercial/commercial-ho.html
You didn't have to buy the interior kit to complete the structure. You paid extra to get a superdetailing kit, and then you're shocked to learn that you have to put it together. Why did you buy it? Did you think someone was going to build it for you?
I seriously checked the date to make sure this wasn't an April Fools joke.
Do you know how many HO structures ever get interiors? Very few, compared to the number of structures made every year. Most modelers are satisfied with the exterior walls of any structure. Not many take the time, effort, and money to actually install any interior in a stucture, but you forked out $37.50 for what are obviously laser cut wood parts from a laser cut wood company that clearly shows all 20 HO-scale wooden (not resin, not metal, not plastic) chairs on the website. Did you seriously think they'd be assembled for you? Does Branchline make any RTR structures? What led you to think this was not a kit?Squeaky wheels may get the grease, but wheels that don't work get replaced.Might I suggest building an assembly jig next time you feel you have to build 20 of anything? That would have been the most efficient way to build those chairs.
And who is saying that it's "cheating" to buy plastic chairs? Over and over again on this thread of yours, people are telling you to buy the plastic chairs if it makes you happy. You're the one ranting here, claiming that Branchline is cheating you.
And for the record, there were no laser cut chairs (or anything else) 50 years ago. In the "old days", any modeler that wanted chairs would have scratchbuilt them. Having the pieces already laser cut for you is a huge advancement in this hobby that you refuse to acknowledge. Did you over open an Ambroid kit? Or a Campbell kit from back in the day? Talk about a box of sticks. You might have gotten some die stamped wood sheets, but that was about it.Geared Steam,Next, we'll be hearing about how someone at an expensive restaurant ordered a big piece of juicy prime rib only to find that it arrived at their table without the waiter cutting the steak into bite-sized pieces first. Hey, after all, it's an expensive meal; it should come "ready to eat"...
maxman,Good point.
Paul A. Cutler III
You say I'm ranting. Of course I am and I made that clear in title of the thread. Read your last three posts and tell me you aren't doing the same.
It's no more complicated than this. Preiser has supplied me with more tables and chairs for a lot less money and a lot less effort. Detailing this kit was pretty much a necessity given that it will be facing the front of the layout and has large picture windows across the entire front. Leaving the interior undetailed would make it look like the buliding was abandoned. Yes, I did make a mistake going with the Branchline kit. It's a mistake I won't repeat and maybe I can help someone else avoid the same mistake by putting this information out there. The Branchline kit made detailing the store interior much more difficult and much more expensive than it needed to be which has been my complaint from the beginning. Preiser gave me more for less money and much less effort.
I really don't care how things were done 50 years ago. 40 years ago if you wanted a personal computer you bought the components and assembled it yourself and probably had to write your own software. Who does that anymore? I wouldn't be suprised if there are a few folks still doing it that way, but most people have better things to do with their time. Making things simpler and easier to use is what progress is all about.
I think the debate or commentary regarding craftsman kits has been interesting. As many have noted, assembled and weathered buildings are fine for some people and some siturations but some prefer the challenge of building their own windows, stick-by-stick. I, for one, enjoy building locomtives. I particually enjoy undecorated Kato SD70s. The railings, grab irons and other parts are a good start for the other details I add to build a locomotive that has a "family" appearance.
As a participant in the National Model Railroad Association's Achievement Program, scratchbuilding and/or detailed craftsman kits are just one part of what is necessary to achieve the goal of Master Model Railroader, something I'm working towards. Building kits like these lead to more scratch building and improve my skills. However, that is NOT to say that I don't buy and operate "ready-to-plant" structures or ready-to-roll rolling stock. I have plenty. It all depends on my goal for a particular project.
I have a couple of Branchline kits living in my storage room. They will get build, details and I'll likely scratchbuild the interiors. They will get judged and added to my list of accomplisments headed to MMR. They will live on the railroad next to other "ready-to-plant" structures and I'll be happy.
If one builder doesn't want to build a detailed "box of sticks" kit, fine. If you do, that's fine too.
Model Railroading is fun, or its supposed to be!
This thread makes the From the Editor, by Neil, in the June issue.
Mike.
My You Tube
Paul3 You didn't have to buy the interior kit to complete the structure. You paid extra to get a superdetailing kit, and then you're shocked to learn that you have to put it together. Why did you buy it? Did you think someone was going to build it for you?
I think at the root of the issue is the fact that many kit manufacturers fail to show the consumer EXACTLY what they are buying. The customer really has no ability to see the contents of the box, when it is an opaque six sided cardboard container that only shows an artist's rendering of the finished product.
Show me the UNASSEMBLED product, so I can then gauge how much work I feel like putting into the project. I may or may not buy it.
DPM kits do this. They come in a plastic bag. The buyer sees right away what the need to do to achieve the finished product.
However, I have been "surprised" by the contents of the box of a kit before. It was expensive and I felt duped.
We see our locomotives and rolling stock, track, tree kits, etc....before we decide to buy them. And back in the day, we could open up Athearn and MDC BB boxes to see the contents...then decide.
Why do the contents of structure kits have to be a mystery? If they use a box, just put a photo of its contents on the outside.
- Douglas
mbinsewi This thread makes the From the Editor, by Neil, in the June issue. Mike.
Really?
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/256206.aspx
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Precisely!! And I can tell you right now that IKEA is going to get an earful on the entertainment center they sold me. I don't mind that I had to assemble it, what I object to is that I had to open the box to see what it contained, and that thing was heavy! It doesn't matter that the box, large as it was, was too small to adequately display the full contents of the box in exploded fashion, IKEA should have figured out some way to let me know how many pieces were in the box and their relationship to each other as a finished item before I bought the entertainment center. All they could do was have an assembled version in the store. NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!
Come to think of it, the box for the the toilet I had to assemble and install yesterday didn't even have a pic of the finished item, let alone a picture of the components. American Standard is going to feel the full power of my wrath, but only after Thor Motor Coach gets an earful for not not informing me that the motor home they sold me has a fuel tank that has to be refilled from time to time. After all, I deserve to be informed of every little quirk of every little thing I buy.
Oh crap! Now I'm going to have to have words with the Monterey Sports Center for not informing me that spending 30 minutes on one of their treadmills walking as fast as I can will cause me to break into a sweat.
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This has got to be one of the strangest, if not THE STRANGEST threads I've ever read. Anywhere. On any subject. It has all the surrealistic aspects of a Salvador Dali painting, but without the artistry.
Andre
Having built many craftsman kits plus a number of scratch built kits---based on nothing but photographs---I must say that having to build a chair for the interior of a craftsman kit should not be an issue. I've even gone to the extend of building HO scale wooden pallets---piece by piece. And even a chair or two.
If for some reason I wasn't in the mood to build a chair then I would have just ordered some plastic ones, applied some weathering, and be done with it.
When purchasing a wooden or laser cut kit one should not be terribly surprised that a chair or other object might have to be put together from smaller parts. That's just part of the fun of our Hobby---there are many facets to Model Railroading and one can chose to spend more time in one area and less time in another.
I'm not a real fan of wiring so underneath my layout is a mass of spaghetti; however, the vast majority of my rolling stock and all of my buildings are hand built.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
Doughless,An artist's rendering on the outside of a laser cut wood kit? Every single one I've ever seen that has anything on the box has either a b&w (usually the old kits like Campbell) or full color picture of the completed kit. Some have no picture at all. But I can't recall any that have a rendering on the box cover.
If one is that concerned about the contents of the kit, ask the store owner if they can open it. Most store owners in my experience will say sure, especially about cardboard boxes since they're only sealed with a couple pieces of tape. A vac sealed kit, like Walthers? Well, you're out of luck. But then, they're plastic kits. And if you're ordering it online, most manufacturers, including Branchline, have multiple full color pics on their website.
I think you can forget about a laser cut wook kit in a plastic bag. The parts would be nothing but toothpicks by the time they got to the hobby shop or to your home via UPS/FedEx.
Why would you feel surprised or duped at buying an expensive craftsman kit and finding out it's hard to build? Craftsman kits are, by definition, hard to build. I learned that lesson when I was still in high school, but today, you have something available that I didn't: this forum and the internet in general. If you're thinking about laying out some serious cash for a kit you know nothing about, ask here or on any other RR forum. Someone will know. Or heck, call, write, or e-mail the manufacturer.
Andre,The best part is that you've got decades of internet experience to back up your statement. We certainly had some real doozies back in the r.m.r days, but I also can't recall such an odd thread as this one. I suppose the next thread will be about how someone is shocked, shocked I tell you, that glue is sticky, soldering irons are hot, and X-Acto knives are sharp.We've seen plenty of comments over the years about how things are too RTR and that there aren't enough kits. We've even seen ones about how RTR items still need to be put together (parts fell off in the box, etc.). This is the first time I've ever seen a thread complaining about a kit that isn't RTR enough.
Andre,The best part is that you've got decades of internet experience to back up your statement. We certainly had some real doozies back in the r.m.r days, but I also can't recall such an odd thread as this one. I suppose the next thread will be about how someone is shocked, shocked I tell you, that glue is sticky, soldering irons are hot, and X-Acto knives are sharp.
The world's gone mad, mad, I tell you. I just found out that model trains are supposed to run on electricity. I've had a Westside SP GS-8 model since they first came out in 1973. For the last 43 years, it's just been sitting there, nothing more than a pretty paper weight. Why didn't Westside put that information on the box? Why didn't they tell me that there's a motor in the firebox? For crying out loud, the pic on the box the vacuum cleaner came in showed it plugged into a wall socket. You'd at least think the locomotive manufacturers would have a pic on the box showing at least the minimum number of additional items required to get a model locomotive to run. After all, Toro told me I needed gasoline to power my lawnmower. They even had instructions on how to start the thing and keep it running. Did you know there's a handle that is connected to some kind of wire that will kill the mower's engine if you let go of the handle? What will they think of next, self-propulsion?
I keep my glue in the tube or bottle, the X-Acto knives in the knife chest and my soldering iron unplugged. That way, I don't get my fingers stuck together, cut or burned. I learned that the hard way.
Andre,
andrechapelonThe world's gone mad, mad, I tell you. I just found out that model trains are supposed to run on electricity. I've had a Westside SP GS-8 model since they first came out in 1973. For the last 43 years, it's just been sitting there, nothing more than a pretty paper weight. Why didn't Westside put that information on the box? Why didn't they tell me that there's a motor in the firebox? For crying out loud, the pic on the box the vacuum cleaner came in showed it plugged into a wall socket. You'd at least think the locomotive manufacturers would have a pic on the box showing at least the minimum number of additional items required to get a model locomotive to run. After all, Toro told me I needed gasoline to power my lawnmower. They even had instructions on how to start the thing and keep it running. Did you know there's a handle that is connected to some kind of wire that will kill the mower's engine if you let go of the handle? What will they think of next, self-propulsion?
ROTFLMAO!
Thanks for the laugh!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
You're welcome.
Remind me to tell you about the time my wife tossed a package of dehydrated mashed potatoes into the garbage disposal, turned on the water and then the disposal and couldn't figure out why the sink backed up.
I'll figure out some way to relate it to the hobby, probably by pointing out that the manufacturer didn't warn the customer that doing the above was not in the best interests of either the customer or the customer's plumbing.
I still chuckle about that event and it happened over 30 years ago. You know, back in the age of the Classic Model Railroader when boxes were blue, kits were cheap (not to mention plentiful), and the living was easy.
The concept is simple. Time is money, even my own. I want to be able to judge how much time i need to spend assembling (or maintianing) something BEFORE I decide how much money I want to spend.
....or else I might buy an alternative product.
That last part is why they don't show you the content of the box.
Edit: As far as kit manufacturers, it seems to me their websites spend many, many, resources on showing us professional renderings orf completed kits, but not more than two cents showing us the content of package.....exactly what we buy.
That's ommision is not by accident.
In modest defense of our OP I think it is fair to point out two things.
First there are self-billed craftsman kits that do have windows and doors that are pre-fab. You could build a fair number of such "craftsman kits," think "hey I can do this" and fairly assume that was part of the deal before encountering one that takes you to places you would prefer not to go for reasons of time, decreased dexterity, failing eyesight or whatever. As I said in an earlier reply to this thread, there is really no standard or threshhold for what constitutes a "craftsman kit" other than it is presumably more challenging --by intention and design - than just a "kit." A kit means assembly of pieces and parts. Craftsman kit presumably by the very use of words means something more than mere assembly of pieces and parts. How much more? Sorry, you're on your own.
The other observation, and this perhaps speaks more to Neal B's editorial mention of this thread, is that Model Railroader used to regularly review craftsman kits and go into quite a bit of detail as to just where in the spectrum of challenge and difficulty they fell. Sometimes it was a member of the MR staff who did the building and wrote the review, and other times it was from a group of modelers mostly in the midwest that were regularly called on to help out in this way.
Back then if you bought a Suydam or Campbell or Ambroid or Arvid Anderson or FSM or La Belle kit you had a clear sense of exactly what lay in front of you because MR's Trade Topics reviews (which often contained useful tips and improvements on the kit instructions) told you what to expect, and you would purchase or avoid accordingly. So, how about it MR? Review (or find someone to review) some craftsman kits from time to time, or sample the offerings from the major suppliers and write up a comparative article about what each of them involved.
Having said that, what we are left with is that if something is called a "craftsman kit" and someone knowingly wants it and buys it, they should expect to be called upon to do difficult, time consuming things which by the very nature of the kit name could all be avoided if someone else, such as the manufacturer, did it for you.
Dave Nelson
All this rant over having to put chairs together !!! Get over it and dont buy anymore craftman kits if you dont want to have to assemble lots of pieces. As in its name craft- to make yourself. Doesnt make sense to dis a company over your inabilities to assemble their product. Common sense about things has gotta come into play somewhere and trying to dis this company for not showing what is in the kit is ridiculous, What I think you need to do is sit back down and learn how to do them, all the energy spent complaining and you could have them done by now. My dad says never give up and stop complaining, lifes to short, spend the time learning as its much more rewarding.
Shanny10
B&O, C&O, PRR
Just lovin trains
It ain't that difficult and I'm 71, wear glasses and need magnifying glasses:
Hi again Dave!
dknelsonHaving said that, what we are left with is that if something is called a "craftsman kit" and someone knowingly wants it and buys it, they should expect to be called upon to do difficult, time consuming things which by the very nature of the kit name could all be avoided if someone else, such as the manufacturer, did it for you.
I think you left out a few words such as "entertaining", "challenging", "rewarding", "satisfying" and so forth.
The OP is disappointed with certain aspects of the kits. Many of us want to change some aspects of our kits, and we just go ahead and do it. It's called scratchbuilding. To reject the entire kit because some minor aspect is not to your liking is to cut yourself off from a major portion of the hobby.
I give up!!! Scratchbuilt though!!
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
How many parts are in the kit?
JaBear...nice looking chair with realistic weathering, much better than mine.
Uhh, I don't see the bolts holding the seat and back to the frame?
(ducking!!)
areibelUhh, I don't see the bolts holding the seat and back to the frame?
Flush countersunk screws.
For my HO scale chairs mortise and tenon joints are used. Dowels are utilized to strengthen the chair followed by wood putty, sanding and then painting.
I'd attach a photo of these chairs but my camera isn't working today.