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I'm not a rivethead

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  • Member since
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Posted by galaxy on Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:57 PM

Gee.

Boy Did I certainly cause a lot of controversy.

Wonder what would have happened to this thread if I hadn't? Probably would be buried on page 4 by now.

Geeked

-G .

Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.

 HO and N Scale.

After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:57 AM

TA462

While at the Belleville Train Show yesterday I had a vendor I know try to convince me that the Athearn Blue box kits he was selling  were just as good as the Intermountain box cars I bought from someone else.   He used the same excuse you read about here, you can't see the detail from 6 feet away.   We put one of my cars beside one of his and started asking people which one do you prefer.   While standing 6 feet away everyone under the age of fifty picked the Intermountain car and said it clearly has more detail.   The old timers were split.   I thought that was kind of weird.   I wish I had one of my super detailed Blue Box cars with me at the time just to show what they could look like.  

One thing I've notice after the car or locomotive is place on the layout the super details seems to disappear once you start focusing on operation like reading car numbers,watching signals etc.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:18 AM

Wayne wrote:The rivet counters are the ones who got us the more and more-to-scale details, and it's not their fault that the manufacturers executed some of them either improperly or using the wrong materials. ------------------------

Wayne,We go back several years on two forums so,I feel I can share this tidbit.

That didn't happen overnight and we had to badger the manufacturers who said it wouldn't be feasible due to the cost involved and turned a deaf ear to our request including Atlas and Uncle Irv stated he wanted no part of it because his main goal was to keep his products affordable...

And out of the clear blue sky..

A company that was considered as a "train set" manufacturer showed the rest that it could be done by releasing a highly detailed caboose followed by a highly detailed BL2 followed by more highly detailed locomotives..

So,the other manufacturers had to play catch up and we decided we wanted more details and more road specific details and we have arrived.

One thing the manufacturers did say that came true...It would be costly.Smile, Wink & Grin

 

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:30 AM

Marklin DB Class 44 in the 1950´s:

 

The same loco nowadays:

It´s all about detail, IMHO

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:36 AM

TA462

 BRAKIE:

One thing the manufacturers did say that came true...It would be costly.Smile, Wink & Grin

 

 

 

Larry,

When I first got into the hobby about 8 years ago now I just took it for granted that the better stuff cost more.   I didn't really know any better.  Guys like Wayne and yourself who have been in the hobby for decades now have seen the change first hand.   Do you think Companys like Intermountain, Athearns Genesis line and the Proto 2000 stuff were produced because you guys wanted it or because the people just getting into the hobby, like myself demanded it?  

To be honest I doubt I would have got as heavily into the hobby as I am now if it wasn't for the higher end, more expensive stuff.   It looks just so real.   I've got an old Athearn Blue Box CP Rail caboose on my layout, it's the first train related item my wife ever gave me.  It's parked on a caboose track with a bunch of Rapido's cabooses.  To say it looks out of place is an understatement.  The Rapido's just look so real, just as good or even better then some of my brass ones. 

No..Actually it started with brass steam engines from PFM/United,Balboa,Sunset and in the 60's brass diesels from Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc..These was the fairly detailed diesel locomotives back in the day-look at the plastic locomotives most was crudely made- it must be noted that Athearn had the best looking plastic  diesels and freight cars of that era and a top line drive...Speaking of BB cars most pale in comparison with their improved RTR brethren.

In the 60s we young modelers  had dreams of detailed diesels and freight cars and the ball ready got to rolling has the new highly detail brass diesels started showing up and in that light it took at least two generations of modelers to get where we are at today.

Looking back if todays hobby was like it was back then I honestly think there would be fewer modelers for several reasons.

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by vsmith on Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:17 AM

 

This pic seams appropriate.

The answer is obvious, switch to something in large scale like Gauge 1, model 1/32 scale and scratchbuild all your rolling stock. Then you can get hyper-rivet-ational about the correct size of everything.  Otherwise your going to have to live with compromised model, the smaller the scale, the greater the compromise. Whats next, someone complaining because the plastic shell on thier SD40 isnt to scale thickness with the sheet metal used on the real engine?

The sad truth is that despite what anyone will admit, most all modern plastic model trains are still the legacy of their TOY TRAIN roots, they've gotten betterat detail and scale over the years but the basic manufacturing of the plastic models hasnt significantly changed since the 1950's, they've just better at adding details but their will always have to be some sort of compromise inherent in the manufacturing process, its just what it is.

Besides if someone doesnt like something like the handrails being out of scale on their engine theres nothing stopping them from yanking those offending rails off and replacing them with the "correct" dia wire. Sometimes if you want something that specific you're going to have to modify it yourself. The manufacturers are more concerned about providing a durable product to the many, not a delicate easy to break Fabrage Egg for the few.

I love working in large scale, handrails are just the least part of the fun:

 

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by vsmith on Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:29 AM

Sir Madog

Marklin DB Class 44 in the 1950´s:

http://tischbahn.de/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/dsc04509b.JPG

 

The same loco nowadays:

http://www.marklin-users.net/upload/Community/Layoutconst/steamfriend/BR44test2.JPG

It´s all about detail, IMHO

I have to admit I still really like the shear chunkyness of the 50's version Smile, Wink & Grin

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:11 AM

I have to admit that there is something to the old version. Cast zinc-alloy body with cast-on piping, wire hand rails with solid metal stanchions, pizza cutter flanges preventing derailing at scale speed of over 200 mph, real light bulbs as headlights, minimum speed about 30 mph. With just a tiny bit of care, those locos were made to give you a service for 50 + years.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:58 AM

TA462

........you can't see the detail from 6 feet away. 

That's true, but....

TA462

   We put one of my cars beside one of his and started asking people which one do you prefer.   While standing 6 feet away everyone under the age of fifty picked the Intermountain car and said it clearly has more detail.   The old timers were split.   I thought that was kind of weird.  

...I wonder what triggered the split in responses.  Perhaps the younger modellers simply had better eyesight.  I continue to be amazed (and dismayed) by the number of people in my age group whom I know and who need glasses or need their prescription upgraded.  Cost may be a factor, but I'd spend the money on glasses before I'd spend it on trains which I couldn't see, well-detailed or not. Sigh

 

TA462

I wish I had one of my super detailed Blue Box cars with me at the time just to show what they could look like.  

I certainly agree with you on that:  many of the old standards (Athearn, Model Die Casting, Train Miniature) can be made to look if not better than, at least comparable to the newer and more expensive offerings.  I have examples of all on my layout, along with Intermountain, Red Caboose, TrueLine, etc., and all, including the latter, have been modified in one aspect or another.    With the advent of more accurate and well-detailed r-t-r models, suddenly everybody could enjoy the benefits of rivet counting without the labour.   It's unfortunate that some of them can't simply enjoy their countable rivets without being concerned with those of us who continue to count.  Smile, Wink & Grin
I would never say that my re-detailed models are better than someone's newer r-t-r models (some may be, others definitely are not).   For me, part of the attraction (or affliction) Smile, Wink & Grin of counting rivets is that my re-detailed models are unique to my skills and tastes.  We each enjoy the hobby in our own manner.

 

Wayne

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Posted by BRAKIE on Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:17 PM

TA462

 BRAKIE:

 

No..Actually it started with brass steam engines from PFM/United,Balboa,Sunset and in the 60's brass diesels from Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc

I realize brass was available back then but for 99% of model railroaders it was unattainable back then.   I'm just talking plastic................

First lets kill a myth..Brass was no higher then most locomotive kits and was attainable by 90% of the modelers

Check the prices:

http://hoseeker.net/ahc/ahccatalog1957pg04steamengines.jpg

Remember back then we had discount local and mail order hobby shops back then.

A Tenshodo GP7 could be had for $21.95,a United Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 could be had for as low as $34.95..A United Class B 2 Truck Shay could be had for $39.99.

Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc diesels could be had between $24.95- $34.95.

The hobby never was "cheap" and like today you had to shop around for the best price.

The best deal I ever got was  a AHM IHB 0-8-0   for $3.00 and AHM freight and passenger cars for 99 cents on December 26th at Woolworth's....I had several dollars to spend..

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, December 5, 2011 5:07 PM

I can dig a few photos out....Whistling

Mind, not every photo I have has that kind of look about them..but there seemed to be enough prosperity around that at least some did use those new cars...

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by St Francis Consolidated RR on Monday, December 5, 2011 7:49 PM

 

   Just because you have a couple of things that bug you doesn't make you an obnoxious critical rivethead nor a very artistic, tolerant, and serious rivethead.

    Personally I am putting a lot of effort into trying to get my heavyweights coupled closely together (and still make it around curves and through switches)  because I shudder when I see models spaced so far apart that Willie Banks couldn't make it from one car to another.

 

The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies

Denver, Colorado


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Posted by St Francis Consolidated RR on Monday, December 5, 2011 7:55 PM

  Vic....you gonna sell that little devil?

The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies

Denver, Colorado


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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:59 AM

TA462

Larry, and Model Railroader was 6 bucks for a year long subscription and you could buy a brand new 57 Chevy for a little over 2 grand.   I guess everybody was driving new Chevy's back then too.Indifferent

 

LOL! My first car was a '55 Ford Crown Vic that I paid a whooping $50.00 for use.

Don't be mislead by some that wasn't around in those days and depend on misinformed educated types that believes  everybody worked for peanuts back then...If people did work for low $1.25/hr wages they was doing  unskilled  manual labor in a sweat shop or a service job like a filling station attendant or a store clerk.

Back then there was thousands of high paying Union manufacturing jobs and the cost of living was low-you could buy a house for $25,000 and you could actually pay it off in about 30 years-try that today..

 

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by Scarpia on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:37 AM

BRAKIE

 

LOL! My first car was a '55 Ford Crown Vic that I paid a whooping $50.00 for use.

And I had a '61 Fleetwood that cost me $500. It was already 27 years old when I bought it.

BRAKIE

Back then there was thousands of high paying Union manufacturing jobs and the cost of living was low-you could buy a house for $25,000 and you could actually pay it off in about 30 years-try that today..

Too bad all those jobs went overseas (guess we can't blame the government for that - can we?) but pay off a house in 30 years - why on earth would we want to do that?  Working on doing it in less than 15, and that seems like a lifetime.

Point being - what the hell does this have to do with model trains?

 

I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:34 PM

Point being - what the hell does this have to do with model trains?

------------------------------

Point??!!.You can't handle the point! LaughLaughLaugh

Sorry couldn't resist poking fun at Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men".

That's how 90% of the modelers worked and bought their models,cars and homes with...

I get tired of reading the misconception on how life was back then.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 4:15 PM

May I remind some that there is a car forum that has a ridiculous number of photographic images of people who did live pretty comfortably....

 

According to some here there might not have been very many people getting into much of anything because of lack of money..that appears not to be the case..

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428585&page=3

Just check out the thread...the 1950's did appear to be a pretty heterogenous era...not so poor

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by andrechapelon on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 4:47 PM

May I remind some that there is a car forum that has a ridiculous number of photographic images of people who did live pretty comfortably....

Defining what "living comfortably" is changes with time. How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering,  variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?

That $2000 Chevy mentioned earlier by someone would have had bench seats, rubber floor mats, a 3 speed manual transmission on the steering column. It would have had no air conditioning, the windows would have been cranked up and down manually and the outside mirror (one) would have been manual. Steering would have been manual. There would have been no power brakes and the brakes would have been drum all around. The tires would have been bias ply. Come to think of it, a "well equipped" car in the late 50's/early 60's would be one with radio (AM), heater and white sidewall tires. Yes, Virginia, radios and heaters were once optional equipment. White sidewalls have gone the way of vinyl tops and hood ornaments.

 

Andre

 

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
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Posted by blownout cylinder on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 6:01 PM

LaughMischief

Really now, you think I didn't already know this?

The point is that it was not ALL poor NOR was it ALL rich either..heterogeneous is what we had then..inflation included. Not all jobs were 'poorly' paid either. As Larry had stated..there were unionized shops then, also executive level jobs then as well...mmmmmm...seems to be that a certain song came out around then...something about houses made out of ticky tacky...

Oh here are some of the lyrics thereby...

Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky tacky
Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes all the same, 
Theres a pink one & a green one 
And a blue one & a yellow one
And they are all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same. 

And the people in the houses
All went to the university
Where they were put in boxes
And they came out all the same
And theres doctors & lawyers
And business executives
And they are all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same. 

And they all play on the golf course
And drink their martinis dry
And they all have pretty children 
And the children go to school,
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university
Where they´re put in boxes 
And they come out all the same. 

And the boys go into business
And marry & raise a family
In boxes made of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same,
Theres a pink one & a green one 
And a blue one & a yellow one
And they are all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

Malvina Reynolds...Little Boxes....written and performed by her in 1962..became a hit for her friend Pete Seegar in 1963

A satirical song about the suburbia of the 1950's - 1960's....

Of course, I am not wishing for the 'Golden Era' here..what with no AC, no PW, no PDL...etc....not that everyone was living like these folks did ..but not everyone was living quite like....

.

either....Smile, Wink & GrinWhistling

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 6:16 PM

Speaking of little pink houses, lest we forget:

There's a black man with a black cat
Livin' in a black neighborhood
He's got an interstate runnin' through his front yard
You know he thinks that he's got it so good

And there's a woman in the kitchen
Cleanin' up evenin' slop
And he looks at her and says, "Hey darlin'
I can remember when you could stop a clock"

Oh, but ain't that America for you and me
Ain't that America somethin' to see baby
Ain't that America home of the free, yeah
Little pink houses for you and me

Well there's a young man in a T-shirt
Listenin' to a rock 'n' rollin' station
He's got a greasy hair, greasy smile
He says, "Lord this must be my destination"

'Cause they told me when I was younger
Said, "Boy you're gonna be President"
But just like everything else those old crazy dreams
Just kinda came and went

Oh, but ain't that America for you and me
Ain't that America somethin' to see baby
Ain't that America home of the free, yeah
Little pink houses for you and me

Well there's people and more people
What do they know, know, know?
Go to work in some high rise
And vacation down at the Gulf of Mexico,

And there's winners and there's losers
But they ain't no big deal
'Cause the simple man baby pays the thrills
The bills, the pills that kill

Oh, but ain't that America for you and me
Ain't that America somethin' to see baby
Ain't that America home of the free, yeah
Little pink houses for you and me,

Ain't that America for you and me
Ain't that America hey with somethin' to see baby
Ain't that America oh, the home of the free,
Little pink houses made for you and me

Alton Junction

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Posted by doctorwayne on Tuesday, December 6, 2011 9:10 PM

andrechapelon

,,,,,How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering,  variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?

 

I'd gladly do without the carpeting, power windows, power door locks (man, I hate those things), power mirrors, and cruise control on my current ride.  If you'd throw in some "no draught" windows, I'd also forego the AC, and gimme rear wheel drive, and you could keep the power steering, too.  Smile, Wink & Grin  You didn't mention them, but take back the airbags, too. Laugh

Wayne

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, December 7, 2011 4:57 AM

doctorwayne

 andrechapelon:

,,,,,How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering,  variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?

 

 

I'd gladly do without the carpeting, power windows, power door locks (man, I hate those things), power mirrors, and cruise control on my current ride.  If you'd throw in some "no draught" windows, I'd also forego the AC, and gimme rear wheel drive, and you could keep the power steering, too.  Smile, Wink & Grin  You didn't mention them, but take back the airbags, too. Laugh

Wayne

When my Dad bought his 1951 green Chevy, the three options were radio, heater and whitewalls.  He got the heater.  We never had whitewalls, but when I later "inherited" the Chevy, I added a pushbutton radio that I bought second hand at the local junk yard for old cars.

Alton Junction

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