doctorwayne andrechapelon: ,,,,,How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering, variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"? I'd gladly do without the carpeting, power windows, power door locks (man, I hate those things), power mirrors, and cruise control on my current ride. If you'd throw in some "no draught" windows, I'd also forego the AC, and gimme rear wheel drive, and you could keep the power steering, too. You didn't mention them, but take back the airbags, too. Wayne
andrechapelon: ,,,,,How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering, variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?
,,,,,How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering, variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?
I'd gladly do without the carpeting, power windows, power door locks (man, I hate those things), power mirrors, and cruise control on my current ride. If you'd throw in some "no draught" windows, I'd also forego the AC, and gimme rear wheel drive, and you could keep the power steering, too. You didn't mention them, but take back the airbags, too.
Wayne
When my Dad bought his 1951 green Chevy, the three options were radio, heater and whitewalls. He got the heater. We never had whitewalls, but when I later "inherited" the Chevy, I added a pushbutton radio that I bought second hand at the local junk yard for old cars.
Alton Junction
andrechapelon ,,,,,How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering, variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?
Speaking of little pink houses, lest we forget:
There's a black man with a black catLivin' in a black neighborhoodHe's got an interstate runnin' through his front yardYou know he thinks that he's got it so good
And there's a woman in the kitchenCleanin' up evenin' slopAnd he looks at her and says, "Hey darlin'I can remember when you could stop a clock"
Oh, but ain't that America for you and meAin't that America somethin' to see babyAin't that America home of the free, yeahLittle pink houses for you and me
Well there's a young man in a T-shirtListenin' to a rock 'n' rollin' stationHe's got a greasy hair, greasy smileHe says, "Lord this must be my destination"
'Cause they told me when I was youngerSaid, "Boy you're gonna be President"But just like everything else those old crazy dreamsJust kinda came and went
Well there's people and more peopleWhat do they know, know, know?Go to work in some high riseAnd vacation down at the Gulf of Mexico,
And there's winners and there's losersBut they ain't no big deal'Cause the simple man baby pays the thrillsThe bills, the pills that kill
Oh, but ain't that America for you and meAin't that America somethin' to see babyAin't that America home of the free, yeahLittle pink houses for you and me,
Ain't that America for you and meAin't that America hey with somethin' to see babyAin't that America oh, the home of the free, Little pink houses made for you and me
Really now, you think I didn't already know this?
The point is that it was not ALL poor NOR was it ALL rich either..heterogeneous is what we had then..inflation included. Not all jobs were 'poorly' paid either. As Larry had stated..there were unionized shops then, also executive level jobs then as well...mmmmmm...seems to be that a certain song came out around then...something about houses made out of ticky tacky...
Oh here are some of the lyrics thereby...
Little boxes on the hillside,Little boxes made of ticky tackyLittle boxes on the hillside,Little boxes all the same, Theres a pink one & a green one And a blue one & a yellow oneAnd they are all made out of ticky tackyAnd they all look just the same. And the people in the housesAll went to the universityWhere they were put in boxesAnd they came out all the sameAnd theres doctors & lawyersAnd business executivesAnd they are all made out of ticky tackyAnd they all look just the same. And they all play on the golf courseAnd drink their martinis dryAnd they all have pretty children And the children go to school,And the children go to summer campAnd then to the universityWhere they´re put in boxes And they come out all the same. And the boys go into businessAnd marry & raise a familyIn boxes made of ticky tackyAnd they all look just the same,Theres a pink one & a green one And a blue one & a yellow oneAnd they are all made out of ticky tackyAnd they all look just the same.
Malvina Reynolds...Little Boxes....written and performed by her in 1962..became a hit for her friend Pete Seegar in 1963
A satirical song about the suburbia of the 1950's - 1960's....
Of course, I am not wishing for the 'Golden Era' here..what with no AC, no PW, no PDL...etc....not that everyone was living like these folks did ..but not everyone was living quite like....
.
either....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
May I remind some that there is a car forum that has a ridiculous number of photographic images of people who did live pretty comfortably....
Defining what "living comfortably" is changes with time. How many people today would buy cars without air conditioning, carpeting, power windows, power door locks, power mirrors, cruise control, power steering, variable speed intermittent wipers and other "necessities"?
That $2000 Chevy mentioned earlier by someone would have had bench seats, rubber floor mats, a 3 speed manual transmission on the steering column. It would have had no air conditioning, the windows would have been cranked up and down manually and the outside mirror (one) would have been manual. Steering would have been manual. There would have been no power brakes and the brakes would have been drum all around. The tires would have been bias ply. Come to think of it, a "well equipped" car in the late 50's/early 60's would be one with radio (AM), heater and white sidewall tires. Yes, Virginia, radios and heaters were once optional equipment. White sidewalls have gone the way of vinyl tops and hood ornaments.
Andre
According to some here there might not have been very many people getting into much of anything because of lack of money..that appears not to be the case..
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428585&page=3
Just check out the thread...the 1950's did appear to be a pretty heterogenous era...not so poor
Point being - what the hell does this have to do with model trains?
------------------------------
Point??!!.You can't handle the point!
Sorry couldn't resist poking fun at Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men".
That's how 90% of the modelers worked and bought their models,cars and homes with...
I get tired of reading the misconception on how life was back then.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE LOL! My first car was a '55 Ford Crown Vic that I paid a whooping $50.00 for use.
LOL! My first car was a '55 Ford Crown Vic that I paid a whooping $50.00 for use.
And I had a '61 Fleetwood that cost me $500. It was already 27 years old when I bought it.
BRAKIE Back then there was thousands of high paying Union manufacturing jobs and the cost of living was low-you could buy a house for $25,000 and you could actually pay it off in about 30 years-try that today..
Back then there was thousands of high paying Union manufacturing jobs and the cost of living was low-you could buy a house for $25,000 and you could actually pay it off in about 30 years-try that today..
Too bad all those jobs went overseas (guess we can't blame the government for that - can we?) but pay off a house in 30 years - why on earth would we want to do that? Working on doing it in less than 15, and that seems like a lifetime.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
TA462 Larry, and Model Railroader was 6 bucks for a year long subscription and you could buy a brand new 57 Chevy for a little over 2 grand. I guess everybody was driving new Chevy's back then too.
Larry, and Model Railroader was 6 bucks for a year long subscription and you could buy a brand new 57 Chevy for a little over 2 grand. I guess everybody was driving new Chevy's back then too.
Don't be mislead by some that wasn't around in those days and depend on misinformed educated types that believes everybody worked for peanuts back then...If people did work for low $1.25/hr wages they was doing unskilled manual labor in a sweat shop or a service job like a filling station attendant or a store clerk.
Vic....you gonna sell that little devil?
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
Just because you have a couple of things that bug you doesn't make you an obnoxious critical rivethead nor a very artistic, tolerant, and serious rivethead.
Personally I am putting a lot of effort into trying to get my heavyweights coupled closely together (and still make it around curves and through switches) because I shudder when I see models spaced so far apart that Willie Banks couldn't make it from one car to another.
I can dig a few photos out....
Mind, not every photo I have has that kind of look about them..but there seemed to be enough prosperity around that at least some did use those new cars...
TA462 BRAKIE: No..Actually it started with brass steam engines from PFM/United,Balboa,Sunset and in the 60's brass diesels from Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc I realize brass was available back then but for 99% of model railroaders it was unattainable back then. I'm just talking plastic................
BRAKIE: No..Actually it started with brass steam engines from PFM/United,Balboa,Sunset and in the 60's brass diesels from Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc
No..Actually it started with brass steam engines from PFM/United,Balboa,Sunset and in the 60's brass diesels from Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc
I realize brass was available back then but for 99% of model railroaders it was unattainable back then. I'm just talking plastic................
First lets kill a myth..Brass was no higher then most locomotive kits and was attainable by 90% of the modelers
Check the prices:
http://hoseeker.net/ahc/ahccatalog1957pg04steamengines.jpg
Remember back then we had discount local and mail order hobby shops back then.
A Tenshodo GP7 could be had for $21.95,a United Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 could be had for as low as $34.95..A United Class B 2 Truck Shay could be had for $39.99.
Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc diesels could be had between $24.95- $34.95.
The hobby never was "cheap" and like today you had to shop around for the best price.
The best deal I ever got was a AHM IHB 0-8-0 for $3.00 and AHM freight and passenger cars for 99 cents on December 26th at Woolworth's....I had several dollars to spend..
TA462 ........you can't see the detail from 6 feet away.
........you can't see the detail from 6 feet away.
That's true, but....
TA462 We put one of my cars beside one of his and started asking people which one do you prefer. While standing 6 feet away everyone under the age of fifty picked the Intermountain car and said it clearly has more detail. The old timers were split. I thought that was kind of weird.
We put one of my cars beside one of his and started asking people which one do you prefer. While standing 6 feet away everyone under the age of fifty picked the Intermountain car and said it clearly has more detail. The old timers were split. I thought that was kind of weird.
...I wonder what triggered the split in responses. Perhaps the younger modellers simply had better eyesight. I continue to be amazed (and dismayed) by the number of people in my age group whom I know and who need glasses or need their prescription upgraded. Cost may be a factor, but I'd spend the money on glasses before I'd spend it on trains which I couldn't see, well-detailed or not.
TA462 I wish I had one of my super detailed Blue Box cars with me at the time just to show what they could look like.
I wish I had one of my super detailed Blue Box cars with me at the time just to show what they could look like.
I certainly agree with you on that: many of the old standards (Athearn, Model Die Casting, Train Miniature) can be made to look if not better than, at least comparable to the newer and more expensive offerings. I have examples of all on my layout, along with Intermountain, Red Caboose, TrueLine, etc., and all, including the latter, have been modified in one aspect or another. With the advent of more accurate and well-detailed r-t-r models, suddenly everybody could enjoy the benefits of rivet counting without the labour. It's unfortunate that some of them can't simply enjoy their countable rivets without being concerned with those of us who continue to count. I would never say that my re-detailed models are better than someone's newer r-t-r models (some may be, others definitely are not). For me, part of the attraction (or affliction) of counting rivets is that my re-detailed models are unique to my skills and tastes. We each enjoy the hobby in our own manner.
I have to admit that there is something to the old version. Cast zinc-alloy body with cast-on piping, wire hand rails with solid metal stanchions, pizza cutter flanges preventing derailing at scale speed of over 200 mph, real light bulbs as headlights, minimum speed about 30 mph. With just a tiny bit of care, those locos were made to give you a service for 50 + years.
Sir Madog Marklin DB Class 44 in the 1950´s: The same loco nowadays: It´s all about detail, IMHO
Marklin DB Class 44 in the 1950´s:
The same loco nowadays:
It´s all about detail, IMHO
I have to admit I still really like the shear chunkyness of the 50's version
Have fun with your trains
This pic seams appropriate.
The answer is obvious, switch to something in large scale like Gauge 1, model 1/32 scale and scratchbuild all your rolling stock. Then you can get hyper-rivet-ational about the correct size of everything. Otherwise your going to have to live with compromised model, the smaller the scale, the greater the compromise. Whats next, someone complaining because the plastic shell on thier SD40 isnt to scale thickness with the sheet metal used on the real engine?
The sad truth is that despite what anyone will admit, most all modern plastic model trains are still the legacy of their TOY TRAIN roots, they've gotten betterat detail and scale over the years but the basic manufacturing of the plastic models hasnt significantly changed since the 1950's, they've just better at adding details but their will always have to be some sort of compromise inherent in the manufacturing process, its just what it is.
Besides if someone doesnt like something like the handrails being out of scale on their engine theres nothing stopping them from yanking those offending rails off and replacing them with the "correct" dia wire. Sometimes if you want something that specific you're going to have to modify it yourself. The manufacturers are more concerned about providing a durable product to the many, not a delicate easy to break Fabrage Egg for the few.
I love working in large scale, handrails are just the least part of the fun:
TA462 BRAKIE: One thing the manufacturers did say that came true...It would be costly. Larry, When I first got into the hobby about 8 years ago now I just took it for granted that the better stuff cost more. I didn't really know any better. Guys like Wayne and yourself who have been in the hobby for decades now have seen the change first hand. Do you think Companys like Intermountain, Athearns Genesis line and the Proto 2000 stuff were produced because you guys wanted it or because the people just getting into the hobby, like myself demanded it? To be honest I doubt I would have got as heavily into the hobby as I am now if it wasn't for the higher end, more expensive stuff. It looks just so real. I've got an old Athearn Blue Box CP Rail caboose on my layout, it's the first train related item my wife ever gave me. It's parked on a caboose track with a bunch of Rapido's cabooses. To say it looks out of place is an understatement. The Rapido's just look so real, just as good or even better then some of my brass ones.
BRAKIE: One thing the manufacturers did say that came true...It would be costly.
One thing the manufacturers did say that came true...It would be costly.
Larry,
When I first got into the hobby about 8 years ago now I just took it for granted that the better stuff cost more. I didn't really know any better. Guys like Wayne and yourself who have been in the hobby for decades now have seen the change first hand. Do you think Companys like Intermountain, Athearns Genesis line and the Proto 2000 stuff were produced because you guys wanted it or because the people just getting into the hobby, like myself demanded it?
To be honest I doubt I would have got as heavily into the hobby as I am now if it wasn't for the higher end, more expensive stuff. It looks just so real. I've got an old Athearn Blue Box CP Rail caboose on my layout, it's the first train related item my wife ever gave me. It's parked on a caboose track with a bunch of Rapido's cabooses. To say it looks out of place is an understatement. The Rapido's just look so real, just as good or even better then some of my brass ones.
No..Actually it started with brass steam engines from PFM/United,Balboa,Sunset and in the 60's brass diesels from Alco,Hallmark and Trains Inc..These was the fairly detailed diesel locomotives back in the day-look at the plastic locomotives most was crudely made- it must be noted that Athearn had the best looking plastic diesels and freight cars of that era and a top line drive...Speaking of BB cars most pale in comparison with their improved RTR brethren.
In the 60s we young modelers had dreams of detailed diesels and freight cars and the ball ready got to rolling has the new highly detail brass diesels started showing up and in that light it took at least two generations of modelers to get where we are at today.
Looking back if todays hobby was like it was back then I honestly think there would be fewer modelers for several reasons.
Wayne wrote:The rivet counters are the ones who got us the more and more-to-scale details, and it's not their fault that the manufacturers executed some of them either improperly or using the wrong materials. ------------------------
Wayne,We go back several years on two forums so,I feel I can share this tidbit.
That didn't happen overnight and we had to badger the manufacturers who said it wouldn't be feasible due to the cost involved and turned a deaf ear to our request including Atlas and Uncle Irv stated he wanted no part of it because his main goal was to keep his products affordable...
And out of the clear blue sky..
A company that was considered as a "train set" manufacturer showed the rest that it could be done by releasing a highly detailed caboose followed by a highly detailed BL2 followed by more highly detailed locomotives..
So,the other manufacturers had to play catch up and we decided we wanted more details and more road specific details and we have arrived.
TA462 While at the Belleville Train Show yesterday I had a vendor I know try to convince me that the Athearn Blue box kits he was selling were just as good as the Intermountain box cars I bought from someone else. He used the same excuse you read about here, you can't see the detail from 6 feet away. We put one of my cars beside one of his and started asking people which one do you prefer. While standing 6 feet away everyone under the age of fifty picked the Intermountain car and said it clearly has more detail. The old timers were split. I thought that was kind of weird. I wish I had one of my super detailed Blue Box cars with me at the time just to show what they could look like.
While at the Belleville Train Show yesterday I had a vendor I know try to convince me that the Athearn Blue box kits he was selling were just as good as the Intermountain box cars I bought from someone else. He used the same excuse you read about here, you can't see the detail from 6 feet away. We put one of my cars beside one of his and started asking people which one do you prefer. While standing 6 feet away everyone under the age of fifty picked the Intermountain car and said it clearly has more detail. The old timers were split. I thought that was kind of weird. I wish I had one of my super detailed Blue Box cars with me at the time just to show what they could look like.
One thing I've notice after the car or locomotive is place on the layout the super details seems to disappear once you start focusing on operation like reading car numbers,watching signals etc.
Gee.
Boy Did I certainly cause a lot of controversy.
Wonder what would have happened to this thread if I hadn't? Probably would be buried on page 4 by now.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Ah! To grow up and be rich. The dream of every Rivet Head.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
I have been dreaming of an O scale layout for years, yet space limitations and the lack of the necessary funds have kept me from realizing this dream. Why O scale? Just for the detail - so I am a rivet head!
I am into N scale right now, and I am impressed by the detail my locos have. It´s only a fraction of a scale inch away from what HO scale offers today, but
I have to take pictures to be able to see that detail!
One of these days, when I grow up and get rich, I´ll go into O scale modeling. I am 55 now, so I hope that will happen soon.
IRONROOSTER If the size of those teeny details bothers you, you should move up to S scale. The details are just naturally bigger SO you can see them. Paul
If the size of those teeny details bothers you, you should move up to S scale.
The details are just naturally bigger SO you can see them.
Paul
Which is why I'm praying for the day I have room for an O scale layout. One of the things that has kept me from modeling D&RG narrow gauge has been the fact that, in HO scale, the details I've seen and that most appeal to me on those trains, are invisible to non-existent when scaled down.
Rivet counters are those of us who prefer to operate more detailed looking trains...
Boors are not rivet counters..they act condescending towards others, are generally obnoxious around their fellow hobbyists and are, most of the time, in all hobbies to one extent or t'other...
Let us not paste all rivet counters with the same broadbrush that in other circles is called...stereotyping.
tschwarz galaxy: If you are worried something is not accurately to scale, then that might just make you a rivet counter. This reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy's "You might be a redneck" so I read this as: "If you are worried that something is not accurately to scale then you might be a Rivet Counter" Maybe that could be a whole new thread...."You might be a Rivet Counter"
galaxy: If you are worried something is not accurately to scale, then that might just make you a rivet counter.
If you are worried something is not accurately to scale, then that might just make you a rivet counter.
This reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy's "You might be a redneck" so I read this as:
"If you are worried that something is not accurately to scale then you might be a Rivet Counter"
Maybe that could be a whole new thread...."You might be a Rivet Counter"
Great Idea!!! Now what Comdiaen model railroaderis going to start it
"Mess with the best, die like the rest" -U.S. Marine Corp
MINRail (Minessota Rail Transportaion Corp.) - "If they got rid of the weeds what would hold the rails down?"
And yes I am 17.
Great Idea!!! Now what Comdiaen modle railroaderis going to start it