Walther's position on Kit vs Ready To Run freight & passenger cars.

[Anonymous]

Jsodberg, I can see what you are saying above as certainly having Merritt. You know, you ask a manufacturer for enough free replacement parts and sooner or later, you get a free model out of the deal! Unscrupulous? Absolutely!

The other point might well be if your the up and coming generation, you've never been given the abilities and skills necessary to put even simple kits together. While you can chase circles around the older modelers when it comes to video games and confusers, the methodicalness, patience and dexterity needed to work with your hands has almost ceased being developed in America. Why, because; "We hire that work done", like it's beneath us to get our hands dirty! The skills, craftsmanship and hard work ethics once so strong in America are fading. This fact scares the **** outa me when I look to the future of this country! Being 54, I know that my time of control of the direction we're heading is over as this country is so focused on being young and it's up to the young to chose the new course. As is always the case, from generation to generation, many skills are not passed on and are simply lost forever!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

I thought that most of the injection molding done for Walthers was done in Denmark? At least, that's where all their structures are made (Heljan).

RTR isn't a fad; it's been with us since the beginning of the hobby (ever heard of a Lionel boxcar kit?). One trend I see that's aiding the new success of RTR is the high quality of the models. Having a RTR Athearn car is no big deal. I personally compare those cars to that of Bachmann or the Life Like toy train stuff. But lots of modelers like the new generation of accurate models, but have neither the time, skill or motor control to build lots of them. So they buy RTR.

I buy RTR freight cars and engines. I like having proto specific equipment, but don't have the time to build hundreds of mostly accurate cars to populate my layout. So I buy mostly correct RTR cars when they come out (about half the releases qualify here. The others are still mostly wrong), weather them, and say "good enough". This leaves me lots more time to build other kits (resin and others), superdetail steam, and actually build a layout.

I'm sorry but I don't want to purchase these RTR "Proto" items with ficticious paint schemes that the manufacturers have pawned off on the average modeler. I was at a hobby shop and saw the Athearn State of Alaska covered hopper, the colors were all wrong and the car was an PS 4740 rather than a Trinity 4750. That is the typical approach of all the manufacturers. Why not do a little research and get it right. That is why I prefer to buy undecorated kits and make them at least a little prototypically correct and paint and decal them properly. That is why I want a PS 4785 Covered Hopper to match the decals I own for a PC X54 Covered Hopper. etc. Some manufacturers (read importers) do try to do a good job on their cars such as Red Caboose on their Coil Cars, who used data supplied by the Historical Societys and Modeling Groups to get the proper prototype cars and paint schemes.

By the way all the Walthers cars, kits included, are made in China, they started the movement to China before all the other importers did. You will notice I call them importers and not manufacturers as they do not make anything.



Rick

[dknelson]

By the late 1970s, early 1980s a lot of train dealers had shelves and shelves of unsold Walthers passenger car kits. Fewer modelers were really prepared to shape the wood roof, square up the sides and ends, paint and decal the car, etc. Ditto for Silver Streak, Pacific HO, Ambroid and a host of other kits of moderate difficulty. So I think the manufacturers know what they are talking about here. And as Linn Westcott pointed out years ago, there is no reason why a kit should be cheaper than RTR in fact quite the contrary because the kit creates the possibility of missing parts that someone has to inventory, etc.
I don't mind RTR cars and locomotives provided I have the ability to take them apart. It is when parts are permanently glued or riveted that would otherwise have been assembled that I get frustrated if I want to change something, or repair it.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

I believe this is just the natural evolution of things. As a hobby, it is competing with other lesiure time activities. In order for the hobby to grow, you need new people coming in, I myself am returning after 35 years. My lesiure time is precious, so I need to choose how my time and money can be spent. And that old saying is quite revelant: Time is money! There are things I will spend money on, and things I will pay for. It all depends on where that time and money line falls. For instance, I am building a layout, but as I have very little stock of cars and engines I am weighing the demands of kits vs RTR. Also I want to have an operational layout which will require more than one engine and a half dozen cars. Now where does my money and time get spent?

That all said, my preference would be for RTR kits; kits that could be simply "snapped" together and ready to go - or easily ( as Dave said above, nothing pre-assembled that can't be changed) super-detailed. Everybody has their own idea of what is worth the time to do, that is what makes this hobby the best. Most manufactures are driven by profits, but I hope they reinvest some of those profits, and keep the hobby skills in this hobby.

Allen

[Anonymous]

dknelson & jsodberg, You have brought up some interesting points. However, I can't give them any real due, as the cost of paying someone to build a kit will always exceed the cost f keeping some spare parts on hand. Most of the folks suppling RTR are shipping parts out of the country (out-sourcing) paying workers to assemble and then ship back in country for sale. After 25 years of being in and owning my own manufacturing company you can't sell me on providing RTR being cheaper! The reason the manufacturers like selling RTR is plain and simple; profit! They make more money on RTR then on kits.

I have been a modeler for almost 50 years. I am making the distinction of calling myself a modeler, as a BUILDER of models. In those years, I have been involved in HO model trains, R/C airplanes and cars, plastic models of all types, wooden ships and stick model airplanes. In all this time, I can't recall one time when I have bought a kit which was not complete! I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying to spend to much money on stocking parts for people whom need to have parts replaced on occasion wouldn't seem like sensible business practices to me. Given what I have been exposed to as far as kits being complete, I would have to say the manufacturers should only have offered this service if they were paid for it.

[jsoderq]

Two points Deschane:
First you are very wrong about every kit being complete. I have been a modeler more than fifty years and I guarantee you I have bought many kits missing parts. With all plastic models the parts are all molded on sprues so it is less likely there is something missing. However most railroad kits are made up of plastic and metal parts not all molded on the same sprue, and they have to be hand loaded into the kit boxes. There is always a chance to miss something or get the wrong quantity or the wrong part. So if you bought very many kits with nothing amiss you are sir indeed very lucky.
Second most of the RTR stuff is not molded here and shipped out. That would be costly and the overseas operations want/need to control the parts manufacturing part of the process.They also make more profit supplying both the tooling and the parts for the product.

[Anonymous]

Jsodberg, I would think your right about the off-shore manufacturers also building the tooling and molding the product overseas! I really hadn't thought that much about this and that's not really what I am talking about here.

However, how can I be wrong about MY experiences? Also, I wouldn't lie about my experiences to make the kit manufacturers look good, as what would be in this for me?
Nor would I postulate a trumped up position just to be diametrically opposed to your opinion. I suppose I could take a poll on the subject, but, frankly I don't give a rip.

My whole thought behind this thread was to question the direction the hobby is heading, which in my opinion is, towards RTR! In this thread and elsewhere in similar threads on this subject it has become apparent to me this is what the folks in the hobby and the manufacturers want. While I don't like this direction personally, there is nothing I can do about it. At the beginning of this thread, and again more recently, manufactures have given their opinions. If anybody should know what is going on, these folks certainly should! We still have Bowser, Branchline and few others offering kits. To keep their competitive edge, I would think these folks are also looking at offering RTR at some time in the future, but, who knows?!?

You know, there is plenty of topics posted here which don't hold any interest for me. I have never visited the Coffee Shop thread. I don't care for the football related threads as I hate football and most professional sports and because I agree with Bergie, the FORUM should be used for Model Railroading topics. When I post, I try to post topics that are interesting to me and MRR related. I mean no harm to anyone and if you take offense to something I said, I am sure if we were talking face to face you would not feel any resentment towards me. Voice inflections and facial expressions which are every bit a part of communication simply do not reproduce electronically.

[Don Gibson]

We used to build things to run - Kits, for instance.

It was cheaper.
There were less choices

Today we have cheap offshore labor (China).
Assembled kits can sell at allmost same price as unassembled.

Intermountain ships their considerable kits to China where they are assembled and shipped back - and can be sold fof $ 5 more at retail. NOW if you -as the sustomer- can buy the kit for $20 or $25 assembled (old prices}, what decision are you going to make?? (One can always use the saved time on some other needed project).

So if you buy Blue Box 'shake the box' kits, cost of assembly becmes fractional.
Oversimplified, if you could get the assembled kit for the same price, which would you buy?

I thought so.

[Anonymous]

Don, From my point of view, the hobby is building a model railroad. Charge the same for kits or RTR and I am going for the kit! Charge more for the kit and I'm going for the kit! So, in my case your " I thought so" is wrong, unless you were thinking I'd be
building kits!

I don't see there being NEEDED PROJECTS in a hobby, only a hobby to enjoy! Obviously I have a different philosophy about using my hobby time than a lot of the rest of you. Many of you seem to treat the hobby like it's another hurry-up and get it done project like the rest of life. I use it to get away from the hurry-up.

[Anonymous]

I don't want to sound high and mighty but I don't call Athearn, Bowser, and Accurail kits. To me a kit should take at least a couple of hours to assemble and not a couple of minutes. If your interested in kit building get a Silver Streak or Huff-N-Puff and settle in for several hours of a good time. It takes almost two days to assemble an old Central Valley kit. That's the one that's made out of wood. I haven't built one of the resen kits yet, they're on the "to do" list but haven't gotten to the top. Most kit builders are like me, we don't buy for what we're going to do tomorrrow, we buy for what we're going to build next month or next year. I've got over 100 car kits and 25 to 30 craftsman structures, and my hobby life is probably only another 10 years. But I can dream. I still buy kits because I never know when I'll need something that I don't have.

Every time we go into a hobby shop we vote for RTR or kits with every dollar we spend.

Manufacturers are profit driven (profit is not a dirty word). They have to make what sells, the hobby shops are only going to buy what thay can sell. If you want to continue to have kits built then you'd better vote for them with your dollars.

Bob

[Anonymous]

Teffy, What do you call Athearn, Bowser and Accurail kits, then?

[Anonymous]

Having recently purchased and assembled several MDC and accurail boxcar kits, I must say that the experience was enjoyable. I was not involved much in this hobby for the past twenty or so years, but I do remember building a lot of the same type of kits when I was involved way back then. My preference for these kits is that I can afford more models with my hobby dollars. When I compare a $7-10 kit with a $20-40 RTR car I can see some differences, but not enough to get me to spend what is being asked for many of these RTR items. The kits in the less than ten dollar price range work well for me, and give me some enjoyment in assembling them. They are not difficult to build and do not require vast amounts of modeling experience, but they do allow me to spend a little time with each car before I put it on the track to run it. In this manner I can spot some of the details on the cars that I otherwise might miss. I like the fact that I can build a unit train of these cars for a couple hundred dollars, yet with some of the RTR stuff, I'd only have five cars, and not be able to achieve the look I'm after while staying within my modeling budget. This is one of the reasons I like these kits. The other thing I like about the kits I've recently built is that they were produced here in the U.S., so if I can keep my money in this country, I will. I would be willing to spend a few more dollars for a U.S. made kit versus a Chinese made kit, but I am not willing to spend a lot more dollars for a Chinese made RTR item versus a U.S. made kit.

[Anonymous]

jdavid93225, I agree with you 100%. Sounds to me like you are a true modeler! Nice to know there is another one out there! Thanks for your comments. Thanks to all of you for your comments!

[dknelson]

Back when the Athearn style kits were new, modelers called them "shake the box" kits -- the implication was that if you shook the box hard enough it would put itself together. I am reminded of a letter to MR from the mid 1950s from some old timer who said basically that if you didn't need to use your soldering iron, it wasn't a kit! These old timers even objected to calling a Silver Streak or Ambroid kit a "craftsman kit" because so much of the work had been done for you.

And DeSchane, to comment a little about your posting about costs of kits/parts versus RTR, I guess I would point out that if the kit version of a car is made here in the USA, presumably at or over minimum wage, I can well understand how the RTR version of the same car made in China at, what, 37 cents an hour?, can be cheaper to make, even taking the costs of shipping into account.
Having said that, never underestimate the willingness of Americans to pay someone to do something simple that they could have done themselves. Want proof? Go the frozen food section and compare the price of frozen peas to the price of frozen buttered peas -- there is a price difference and that is what we pay for someone to butter our peas for us!
Dave Nelson

[Bikerdad]

QUOTE: Don, From my point of view, the hobby is building a model railroad.

Gee, that's the same attitude the Pennsy had. We're building a railroad, so we won't buy anything not made in our shops.

At the end of the day, a boxcar from the Altoona Shops carried just as much as a boxcar from Pullman. Pullman is still making boxcars. Pennsy? hmmmm

Specialization is a wonderful economic concept. If you enjoy building kits, and you consider the personal construction of everything in your empire to be important, then go for it, enjoy yourself, and dazzle the rest of us with your handiwork. Just please don't make the mistake of thinking that the wealthy guy who goes out, hires somebody to build his layout, buys all of his rolling stock RTR, and then sits there watching his trains go round and round rather than running prototypical operating sessions doesn't have a "model railroad." He does, and he's probably having a lot of fun with it.

There will always be opportunity to build things yourself. The market may come to a place where that opportunity means scratchbuilding, but hey, if its from a "kit" then you aren't really making it yourself, now are you? You're only assembling it.

Regardless of whether you're the "buy everything ready to go" or "build everything from scratch", or (as is most likely) somewhere in between, you can have fun. So go forth and have fun.

[Anonymous]

Bikerdad, Where did I say you can't enjoy yourself anywhere in this thread? Where did I say I'm not enjoying myself? What does my preference for building kits have to do with the shops at Altoona building their own box cars? When did I say that someone whom pays to have a model railroad built for himself by a professional builder isn't a model railroader?

Seems like a lot of words been have been put in my mouth, here! I simply said; "From my point of view, the hobby is BUILDING a model railroad". This does not mean my opinion is; If you don't like building a model railroad my way, your wrong!

Even on this forum, where we are all involved in the same basic hobby, have the same general interest and enjoy mostly the same thing, we seem to be so polarized! There is never a middle road it's always us and them, my way or the highway! What's up with that?

[Anonymous]

I think what DeShane's problem is, and mine, is that the Ready to Run crowd has skewed the purchasing of new Model Railroad items away from kits to the point where kits will no longer be offered.

Again I have no objection to those who want Ready to Run, all I want is the "opportunity" to purchase kits and build and modify them to my operating standards. This "opportunity" is being taken from me because I can no longer purchase kits.

I realize as I get older (Now 57) I may not be able to physically do the construction of kits and or scratchbuilding as I once did. But while I can I want to build, paint and decal my own cars, engines, buildings etc.

Another telling fact, my wife accompanied me to the LHS last week while I picked up some scratchbuilding supplies and detail parts. She asked if there were any undecorated kits around and the owner told her he only special orders them for me as I am the only one who builds, paints and decals his own cars.

Rick

[Anonymous]

I enjoy building (assembling) kits for my model railroad. At this time, I don't yet have my layout built and am waiting for warmer weather and longer days so I have more daylight in which to do so. Since my layout is going to be in a shed, rather than in the house, I am spending some of my winter evenings building the models that will go on the layout. I'm with a few of the others who feel that the building or assembly of the kits is a major part of the hobby that we thoroughly enjoy. That's not to say that running our trains is not fun. I personally enjoy building things as much as I do using the things I've built. Seeing the result of the work I've done is one of the most satisfying parts of this hobby (and several others) for me. I don't think I would like to run my trains on a layout that was built for me nearly as much as running them on one I built myself. There's just more satisfaction for me in knowing that I built it!
-Joe

[jimrice4449]

place yourself in the mnfctr's shoes. Once you pay for the dies you've got three cost factors. The price to cast the parts and packaging, the cost of shipping and the cost of having Mama-San assemble the car. The casting and packaging and the transportation are all irrelevant if the car is being produced in China since they would be the same whether the car's marketed as a kit or RTR. The variable is the cost of having it assembled. If Mama-San gets $1.00US for each car (probably a gross over-estimate) and rhe RTR car sells for $20 more than a kit you don't need a Harvard MBA in marketing to figure out the way to go.
If you're talking about a car made in USA you have to figure shipping cost round trip plus cost of inventory in transit/process or pay somebody US wages to assemble it here. Once again it's not rocket science to to figure out the way to go.

[Anonymous]

I am an old fart and truly enjoy the current squabble over kits or RTR. In the dark ages, just after we were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, we had real kits. Little boxes with lots of wood, a few nails, some more or less pre-painted sides, some staples to insert as grab irons. There was cutting, drilling, fitting, sometimes soldering, and two or three evenings later, voila, the finished product. And the finished product resembled nothing specific. The end product was generic, you identified the road it came from by using the appropriate decals. Folks screamed when plastic kits hit the market. Model railroading was over. Plastic was junk. Today the attitude is much different. The trend away from mass produced kits? No real loss. The only difference between Athearn's 40 boxcar kits was the color of the paint and the, dare I say it, decals. Hmmmmm. The really high end stuff now is railroad specific in detail as well as decals. So it comes RTR, so what? You want an equivalent kit? Sunshine, Funaro and Camerlingo, Westerfield and others product some magnificent kits that are ultra high zoot, correct down to the size of the rivet heads. I do not see a loss to model railroading, I see a new dawn, a time of true fidelity to prototype, a time of super-size selection. I do not understand the doom and gloom I read. These are the very best of times, truly the golden age of model railroading as far as kits and supplies are concerned. What a great hobby, what a great time to be in the hobby.

Tom

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpaulsen

The trend away from mass produced kits? No real loss. The only difference between Athearn's 40 boxcar kits was the color of the paint and the, dare I say it, decals. Hmmmmm. The really high end stuff now is railroad specific in detail as well as decals. So it comes RTR, so what? You want an equivalent kit? Sunshine, Funaro and Camerlingo, Westerfield and others product some magnificent kits that are ultra high zoot, correct down to the size of the rivet heads. I do not see a loss to model railroading, I see a new dawn, a time of true fidelity to prototype, a time of super-size selection. I do not understand the doom and gloom I read. Tom

If you don't see the point of contention, then you don't understand the problem. Those modelers who want to build kits and frown on RTR because that market is steadily eliminating kits with modest price tags, ones that can be purchased cheaply, easily modified, repainted and decaled to the modeler's wishes, are being slowly being shut out of the market. High priced flat (and other such) resin kits by Sunshine, F&C, or Westerfield in no way represent a substitute. At $30-$40 each, these resin kits are as expensive as much of the RTR stuff and often not very adaptable. I've been in the hobby many years too and built Binkley, Laconia, and Ambroid kits, as well as modifying many modern kits, and I don't find the resin kits nearly as nice to work with, fun to build, or a substitude for plastic kits.

In short, to many the disappearance of affordable kits will suck a lot of the life out of our hobby, just as the spiraling prices are already doing. The hobby as we know it can not maintain itself for any length of time into the future unless the current trends change. One needs only look at the steadily declining number of hobbyists to see this.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

This is the best of times? Well, what the___, I did not know this!!

[Anonymous]

Well, we can separate the glass-half-full from the glass-half-empty crowd on this thread.

I just wonder which group has the largest stock of unbuilt freight car kits on their basement shelves.

[Anonymous]

So, in the end all my hard work and study on this issue, my opinions which are also backed up by manufacturers and hobby shop owners opinions, can simply be boiled down to the glass being half full or the glass being half empty! This is truly amazing stuff! So, also then, what your saying is; There are really only two types of people on this Earth: Those whom see the glass half full and those whom see the glass half empty! Can I assume, because I see RTR supplanting kits, that I must be one of the people whom see the glass half empty? Conversely then, because this issue is not anything of note for you, You must be one of those whom sees the glass half full.

Simply breath taking!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

I don't see there being NEEDED PROJECTS in a hobby, only a hobby to enjoy! Obviously I have a different philosophy about using my hobby time than a lot of the rest of you. Many of you seem to treat the hobby like it's another hurry-up and get it done project like the rest of life. I use it to get away from the hurry-up.

I help out occaisionally at a local Hobbytown. Frequently, when showing people some hobby item that needs assembly, they will say "Doesn't that take a lot of time?" My reply to them is "Its a hobby, not a job. You won't get fired from the hobby if you don't get it done by Thursday. A hobby is very patient. It may take some time but it never demands your time. If you don't work on it for a week or a month, it will still be there when you do have time." Its amazing how many people at that point nod and start to smile, and they usually walk out with something in thier bag. You just have to make them realize that there are alternatives to 'right now-hurry up'.

[markpierce]

Well then, your obvious choice in heavyweight Pullmans in HO is to buy the Branchline kits. The Branchlines are more accurate models too.

[Anonymous]

That's correct I have five of the Branchline Coaches - Pullmans left to build.

Rick