DoughlessI always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not. Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else. Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
I am getting ready to build my first layout in years, and have spent waaaay too much time reading about and worrying about what kind of track and turnouts to use. I finally decided to just go to the LHS and pick up a couple of different brands of flex and turnouts to judge for myself. I really like the looks of the way the Peco Unifrog is made and wired, but was also aware of what has been written about it being prone to shorts. I hooked up my meter to it, and rolled a metal Walthers wheelset all thru it (just a wheelset, not even in a truck), while purposely wobbling and sliding it around the frog area, trying for a short. No shorts. I'm sold enough to use them on the soon to come chain saw layout.
I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not.
Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else.
Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
- Douglas
To summarize, when using the Walthers control system, the only soldering would be frog turnout wire to switch machine. This applies to both Electrofrog and Unifrog?
riogrande5761 betamax The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem. Wouldn't that mean the rails leading to the frog would be dead for them to not short out if a wide tread metal wheel touched them both, or a wheel without the 3 degree taper?
betamax The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem.
If I read what you asking correctly, The frog rails in the insulfrog aren't dead, but they are the same polarity
https://wiringfordcc.com/sw_typ2.gif
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
betamax The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out.
The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out.
Eventually. The #5, #8 turnouts and #7 curved turnouts still come in both Insulfrog and Electrofrog lines.
The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
richhotrain I generally agree with RioGrande, But just to further clarify a point that he made, the Peco Code 83 #6 turnout that he is referring to that shorts where the rails converge, it is the Unifrog, not the older Insulfrog. Rich
I generally agree with RioGrande, But just to further clarify a point that he made, the Peco Code 83 #6 turnout that he is referring to that shorts where the rails converge, it is the Unifrog, not the older Insulfrog.
Rich
Specifically in this case Unifrog, but both really.
Hobbyists have reported the exact same issue with Insulfrog turnouts long before the Unifrog turnouts came out. I decided to go with Electrofrog turnouts due to this issue. I found out last fall (2020) that The Electrofrog and Insulfrog #6 turnouts had been discontinued in lieu of the Unifrog so I hunted down enough Peco #6 Electrofrog turnouts for my needs.
HO.
I will be using the Walthers Layout Control System: cables, power distribution block, 2 amp power supply, 3 piece drill set, etc.
There is still all of the wire soldering?
Didn't see what scale you are modelin. I'm N scale and Peco Electrofrog with the frogs powered by the Walthers switch machines. I've lots of experience with this having installed 60+ turnouts this way.
If you haven't used Walthers switch machines before, order 25% more than you need. The failure rate is very high and you'll be sending back duds.
Ive also come up with a much easier install method than Walthers gives you.
Overall I'm pleased with the combination. The electrofrog is almost mandatory in an N Scale yard with short light weight switcher models. That constant power through the turnout sure helps. On the mainline I honestly probably could have saved myself all the extra wiring.
Youll definitely want to use Micromark suitcase connectors vs soldering as there are 4 wires connecting to the track bus per turnout and three wires soldered to the Walthers switch machine.
I think I used around 300 suitcase connector. Have fun!
Peco's tend to be the shortest turnouts for any given turnout number. Powering frogs indisputably sounds good, but isn't always necessary.
I soldered wires to my old style Walthers #4 and #5 frogs, in case. I have only one turnout where my 45 tonner stutters at the frog, and I don't know why that frog is different than similar turnouts.
Thanks for info everyone.
Been thinking of using Walthers new code 100 electrofrogs and power the frog using the Walthers switches. But they keep moving the due date of the switches each month from around August I believe. Its 12-28 now. Thats why Im now considering the Peco code 100 and am finding them available.
My former club used nothing but insulfrog turnouts. The only issue we had was the gap in the guard rails would allow a wheel to pick the frog point. A ten thou styrene strip glued to the guard rails would solve it. There was never an issue with stalling. Even my test truck light would not blink the bulb rolling through. Some guys got glue on the point contacts so the point rails were insulated. A little cleaning fixed that up.
Pete.
I run modern designed and built locomotives, nothing older than 2008 production. They are diesels that have all wheel pickup, including shorter wheelbase switchers. Most are DCC Sound, which are a little more phinicky about having good (and not conflicting) electrical flow to the wheels.
All of my rolling stock is vintage year 2000 or newer, China produced. I don't know if they have RP25 wheels or not.
I have code 83 Peco Insulfrogs, and have never had an issue with stalling over the frog or shorting over the frog. In fact, because the frog is a bit more compact than other brands (IMO, not actually measured) owning partially to the narrowness of the two rails exiting the frog, that compactness of the frog is one of the reasons I prefer Peco Insulfrog over some other brands.
A shorter frog helps short wheel based locos not stall at the frog.
Never had a use for powered frogs. But I could see if you had older locos that maybe don't have all wheel pickup or steam locos that are short or where the pickup system is less thoughtfully designed, I can see where having powered frogs would be helpful.
Alton Junction
1arfarf3 Is Insulfrog better since you can't short out the point rails?
Is Insulfrog better since you can't short out the point rails?
For what it's worth, Peco is phasing out the two lines of Insulfrog and Electrofrog and merging them into Unifrog single line of turnouts. Therefore the question is becoming moot. In the code 83 line, the #6 turnouts, #6 double slip and crossings are already Unifrog. The only way buy Electro or Insulfrog would be to find old stock. Eventually Peco plans to replace all their turnouts with a single line.
One caution about some Unifrog turntouts such as the Peco code 83 #6. They can result in shorts where metal wheels tough both rails near the frog, either because they are wide or because there is no NMRA recommended 3 degree taper. I chose to go all Electrofrog on my layout and use Frog Juicers to power the frog rails.
Peco has acknowledged the shorting issue in the Unifrog #6 turnouts and stated they plan to update the engineering to mitigate the issue the future:
Thank you for your email raising concerns about short circuits on the Unifrog #6 turnouts. It is standard railway engineering practice to put a 3° taper on wheels, which normally means they only contact the rail they are sat upon and the overhanging outer edge of the wheel should pass over the top of the opposing frog rail without contact. This is what we are used to, and it works that was on our OO and N scale products. However, NMRA RP-25 only recommends a taper, and having spoken to a former colleague who is deeply into American HO scale we now realise there are ready to run models being produced without the taper on the wheels, which would of course cause the short circuiting problems as you describe and what you saw in the YouTube video. We are now looking at how we can modify the tooling to provide a longer Unifrog tip and greater gap between the frog rails. This will also be implemented on the code 70 #6 turnouts and all future HO scale Unifrog products. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Each type has pros & cons. The main reason for the insulfrog variety is to prevent shorts at the frogs. Peco's Customline series, now on their way out(?) Insulfrog are 'power routing', meaning they can be powered only at the points end and jumpers will route the power depending on route lined at the throwbar. But, the frog itself is unpowered. Engines with small wheelbase pickup will possibly stall on those unpowered frogs. I haven't had that problem, but some report it.
The electrofrog variety power the frog based on throwbar position or the operator powers the frog via a switch, whether automatic or manually operated. Wheels out of gauge can cause shorts, but tiny switchers, say a Porter steamer, should have no trouble.