Is Insulfrog better since you can't short out the point rails?
Each type has pros & cons. The main reason for the insulfrog variety is to prevent shorts at the frogs. Peco's Customline series, now on their way out(?) Insulfrog are 'power routing', meaning they can be powered only at the points end and jumpers will route the power depending on route lined at the throwbar. But, the frog itself is unpowered. Engines with small wheelbase pickup will possibly stall on those unpowered frogs. I haven't had that problem, but some report it.
The electrofrog variety power the frog based on throwbar position or the operator powers the frog via a switch, whether automatic or manually operated. Wheels out of gauge can cause shorts, but tiny switchers, say a Porter steamer, should have no trouble.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
1arfarf3 Is Insulfrog better since you can't short out the point rails?
For what it's worth, Peco is phasing out the two lines of Insulfrog and Electrofrog and merging them into Unifrog single line of turnouts. Therefore the question is becoming moot. In the code 83 line, the #6 turnouts, #6 double slip and crossings are already Unifrog. The only way buy Electro or Insulfrog would be to find old stock. Eventually Peco plans to replace all their turnouts with a single line.
One caution about some Unifrog turntouts such as the Peco code 83 #6. They can result in shorts where metal wheels tough both rails near the frog, either because they are wide or because there is no NMRA recommended 3 degree taper. I chose to go all Electrofrog on my layout and use Frog Juicers to power the frog rails.
Peco has acknowledged the shorting issue in the Unifrog #6 turnouts and stated they plan to update the engineering to mitigate the issue the future:
Thank you for your email raising concerns about short circuits on the Unifrog #6 turnouts. It is standard railway engineering practice to put a 3° taper on wheels, which normally means they only contact the rail they are sat upon and the overhanging outer edge of the wheel should pass over the top of the opposing frog rail without contact. This is what we are used to, and it works that was on our OO and N scale products. However, NMRA RP-25 only recommends a taper, and having spoken to a former colleague who is deeply into American HO scale we now realise there are ready to run models being produced without the taper on the wheels, which would of course cause the short circuiting problems as you describe and what you saw in the YouTube video. We are now looking at how we can modify the tooling to provide a longer Unifrog tip and greater gap between the frog rails. This will also be implemented on the code 70 #6 turnouts and all future HO scale Unifrog products. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I generally agree with RioGrande, But just to further clarify a point that he made, the Peco Code 83 #6 turnout that he is referring to that shorts where the rails converge, it is the Unifrog, not the older Insulfrog.
Rich
Alton Junction
I run modern designed and built locomotives, nothing older than 2008 production. They are diesels that have all wheel pickup, including shorter wheelbase switchers. Most are DCC Sound, which are a little more phinicky about having good (and not conflicting) electrical flow to the wheels.
All of my rolling stock is vintage year 2000 or newer, China produced. I don't know if they have RP25 wheels or not.
I have code 83 Peco Insulfrogs, and have never had an issue with stalling over the frog or shorting over the frog. In fact, because the frog is a bit more compact than other brands (IMO, not actually measured) owning partially to the narrowness of the two rails exiting the frog, that compactness of the frog is one of the reasons I prefer Peco Insulfrog over some other brands.
A shorter frog helps short wheel based locos not stall at the frog.
Never had a use for powered frogs. But I could see if you had older locos that maybe don't have all wheel pickup or steam locos that are short or where the pickup system is less thoughtfully designed, I can see where having powered frogs would be helpful.
- Douglas
My former club used nothing but insulfrog turnouts. The only issue we had was the gap in the guard rails would allow a wheel to pick the frog point. A ten thou styrene strip glued to the guard rails would solve it. There was never an issue with stalling. Even my test truck light would not blink the bulb rolling through. Some guys got glue on the point contacts so the point rails were insulated. A little cleaning fixed that up.
Pete.
Thanks for info everyone.
Been thinking of using Walthers new code 100 electrofrogs and power the frog using the Walthers switches. But they keep moving the due date of the switches each month from around August I believe. Its 12-28 now. Thats why Im now considering the Peco code 100 and am finding them available.
Peco's tend to be the shortest turnouts for any given turnout number. Powering frogs indisputably sounds good, but isn't always necessary.
I soldered wires to my old style Walthers #4 and #5 frogs, in case. I have only one turnout where my 45 tonner stutters at the frog, and I don't know why that frog is different than similar turnouts.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Didn't see what scale you are modelin. I'm N scale and Peco Electrofrog with the frogs powered by the Walthers switch machines. I've lots of experience with this having installed 60+ turnouts this way.
If you haven't used Walthers switch machines before, order 25% more than you need. The failure rate is very high and you'll be sending back duds.
Ive also come up with a much easier install method than Walthers gives you.
Overall I'm pleased with the combination. The electrofrog is almost mandatory in an N Scale yard with short light weight switcher models. That constant power through the turnout sure helps. On the mainline I honestly probably could have saved myself all the extra wiring.
Youll definitely want to use Micromark suitcase connectors vs soldering as there are 4 wires connecting to the track bus per turnout and three wires soldered to the Walthers switch machine.
I think I used around 300 suitcase connector. Have fun!
The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out.
The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem.
HO.
I will be using the Walthers Layout Control System: cables, power distribution block, 2 amp power supply, 3 piece drill set, etc.
There is still all of the wire soldering?
richhotrain I generally agree with RioGrande, But just to further clarify a point that he made, the Peco Code 83 #6 turnout that he is referring to that shorts where the rails converge, it is the Unifrog, not the older Insulfrog. Rich
Specifically in this case Unifrog, but both really.
Hobbyists have reported the exact same issue with Insulfrog turnouts long before the Unifrog turnouts came out. I decided to go with Electrofrog turnouts due to this issue. I found out last fall (2020) that The Electrofrog and Insulfrog #6 turnouts had been discontinued in lieu of the Unifrog so I hunted down enough Peco #6 Electrofrog turnouts for my needs.
betamax The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out.
Eventually. The #5, #8 turnouts and #7 curved turnouts still come in both Insulfrog and Electrofrog lines.
riogrande5761 betamax The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem. Wouldn't that mean the rails leading to the frog would be dead for them to not short out if a wide tread metal wheel touched them both, or a wheel without the 3 degree taper?
betamax The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem.
If I read what you asking correctly, The frog rails in the insulfrog aren't dead, but they are the same polarity
https://wiringfordcc.com/sw_typ2.gif
To summarize, when using the Walthers control system, the only soldering would be frog turnout wire to switch machine. This applies to both Electrofrog and Unifrog?
I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not.
Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else.
Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
DoughlessI always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not. Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else. Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
I am getting ready to build my first layout in years, and have spent waaaay too much time reading about and worrying about what kind of track and turnouts to use. I finally decided to just go to the LHS and pick up a couple of different brands of flex and turnouts to judge for myself. I really like the looks of the way the Peco Unifrog is made and wired, but was also aware of what has been written about it being prone to shorts. I hooked up my meter to it, and rolled a metal Walthers wheelset all thru it (just a wheelset, not even in a truck), while purposely wobbling and sliding it around the frog area, trying for a short. No shorts. I'm sold enough to use them on the soon to come chain saw layout.
1arfarf3This applies to both Electrofrog and Unifrog?
Some recommend modifying the electrofrog.
https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Electrofrog
riogrande5761 betamax The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out. Eventually. The #5, #8 turnouts and #7 curved turnouts still come in both Insulfrog and Electrofrog lines. The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem. Wouldn't that mean the rails leading to the frog would be dead for them to not short out if a wide tread metal wheel touched them both, or a wheel without the 3 degree taper?
The position of the switch rails controls power routing. Insulated rail joiners isolate the point rails from the downstream trackage, so one is dead while the other is powered. No potential, no short.
Nice try Doughless. No, not an urban legend. Maybe lay off the Disney channel for a while
Lastspikemike Doughless I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not. Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else. Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend. We have lots of Insulfrogs and no shorting issues. My very first pair of Unifrog #6 turnouts? One turnout only shorted on one Proto 2000 SW1200 but not on any other of the same model. No other locomotive shorted on the Unifrog. Painting nail polish onto the frog rails did not prevent the one locomotive from shorting so I traded the "faulty" locomotive in for an identical model which does not short over the Unifrogs. I deduce that very few post 1990 locomotives will experience problems with Unifrog turnouts.
Doughless I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not. Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else. Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
We have lots of Insulfrogs and no shorting issues. My very first pair of Unifrog #6 turnouts? One turnout only shorted on one Proto 2000 SW1200 but not on any other of the same model. No other locomotive shorted on the Unifrog. Painting nail polish onto the frog rails did not prevent the one locomotive from shorting so I traded the "faulty" locomotive in for an identical model which does not short over the Unifrogs.
I deduce that very few post 1990 locomotives will experience problems with Unifrog turnouts.
Right. Unifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments.
Like I said, all of my loco models are made post 2008, and rolling stock are all post 2000.
I've had those Proto SW units. Nice locos, especially slow runners in DC like a switcher should run. But given the era of pre-2000 Chinese assembly, I would not be surprised if some wheels were out of gauge or tolerances from time to time. I don't think that QC was as consistent back then. JMO.
And my Proto SW switchers were the ones that would occasionally stall over my Atlas switches, when I used Atlas switches. Not short, stall. The Atlas S2/S4 and MP15 were/are excellently consistent regarding electrical pickup.
DoughlessUnifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments.
Unifrog and Insulfrog - the issue is identical. Because the Insulfrog has been around a long time, there have been numerous reports over the years here about it. I am only aware of one or two reports regarding the Unifrog - I found one on Youtube where a hobbyists was getting shorts on their Unifrog #6 and demonstrated it in the video; Peco has acklnowledged the issue.
The typical reported solution is to paint the end of the rails near the frog with finger nail polish until it eventually wears of and then repeat as needed.
Perhaps Doughless's isn't happy because sometimes it is brought up more than it is reported so he trolls posts about by calling it an urban legend, or maybe fake news, using the current venacular. Whatever, troll-on.
Anyway, it's not an issue at all for some, for a few others it is and they get the finger nail polish out.
nuff said
My layout is filled with medium radius Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts. I have both locomotives and rolling stock that short crossing them. For most, it is so minor and so brief that the DCC system breaker doesn't react. You hear a snap and if dark can see ever so briefly a tiny flash. Most locomotives and rolling stock don't do this, but some do. I only have a couple pre 1990 locomotives and they have not exhibited this issue. I had a new Mantua flatcar as my worst offender until I changed the wheelsets out. Then I acquired a Trix 2-8-2 that is a huge offender. That does short enough to trip the system. Nail polish worked well to address it.
Mike
riogrande5761 Doughless Unifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments. Unifrog and Insulfrog - the issue is identical. Because the Insulfrog has been around a long time, there have been numerous reports over the years here about it. I am only aware of one or two reports regarding the Unifrog - I found one on Youtube where a hobbyists was getting shorts on their Unifrog #6 and demonstrated it in the video; Peco has acklnowledged the issue. The typical reported solution is to paint the end of the rails near the frog with finger nail polish until it eventually wears of and then repeat as needed. Perhaps Doughless's isn't happy because sometimes it is brought up more than it is reported so he trolls posts about by calling it an urban legend, or maybe fake news, using the current venacular. Whatever, troll-on. Anyway, it's not an issue at all for some, for a few others it is and they get the finger nail polish out. nuff said
Doughless Unifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments.
The subject of the thread is not about Unifrog. And if Peco is going to fix it, its going to be a moot issue relatively soon.
Most of the words typed on the internet about the Insulfrog issue come from people who are repeating what someone else said.
Repeated enough to where its gained its own critcal mass....."The Insulfrog Shorting Issue". LOL.
Its akin to modern cut and paste journalism, where, as an example, one report....one...gets repeated by 50 different media outlets, which then becomes "multiple outlets report".
No. Its one report....one...repeated on 50 different outlets.
I believe the Peco press release speaks to the Unifrog, not the previous Insulfrog, so I still don't know how much actual knowledge there is about Insulfrog shorting issues as a design flaw as opposed to "some people with some sort of locos and cars that have some kind of wheel have problems some times."
If I had a problem with shorting, I would file down the outer edge of the two rails near the frog, since the oter edge of the rails is useless. It would create a gap so the outer edge of the fat wheel won't touch the outer edge of the opposing rail. I wouldn't use nail polish.
No different than nipping tie ends to fit two turnouts close together, or clipping those useless switch stand support timbers that get in the way of almost anything.
The insulfrog point shorting is not a myth. I have first hand knowledge of the issue and a permanent fix. The gap between the frog guard rails and stock rails is too wide. This allows some locomotives and rolling stock wheels to touch the opposite point rails but not pick it enough to derail it. I fixed all mine by gluing a .010 styrene shim to the guard rails and painting it. No problems after that. I do have one small radius wye that needed .015 thick shim to keep my 0-6-0 from picking and sparking on the point.
Some guys in the club put the nail polish on but the wheel still rides up to almost a derail condition before dropping down on the right side of the frog.
The Peco turnouts are manufactured using HO/OO standards allowing a greater gap in the guard rails to accommodate the OO wheel flanges and are too wide for HO. I have not measured the thickness of the insulation of the frog points, but it is not very thick.
Myth? No. That's a fact check true.
Honestly, if I had to start over again today, I would still use my Peco turnouts. The shorting issue is that minor and I like them so much better than the other brands I've used.
Water Level Route Honestly, if I had to start over again today, I would still use my Peco turnouts. The shorting issue is that minor and I like them so much better than the other brands I've used.
richhotrain Water Level Route Honestly, if I had to start over again today, I would still use my Peco turnouts. The shorting issue is that minor and I like them so much better than the other brands I've used. I have over two dozen Peco Code 83 #6 Insufrogs on my layout. I have no shorting problems whatsoever. Rich
I have over two dozen Peco Code 83 #6 Insufrogs on my layout. I have no shorting problems whatsoever.
Last evening, I spent time putting each locomotive on the tracks, and some rolling stock (mainly Atlas and Athearn RTR trucks) and physically shoved them as far as they could go against the frog on both the tangent and diverging rails, both directions. Slid them back and forth with the power and sound on.
I couldn't produce a short even when trying to do it. 50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars.
This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8 (even narrower?)
My beef is the amount of critical mass that's created by repetitive multiple reporting of a few events where perhaps the nature of the situation contains some unreported variable that has more to do with shorting than to blame it on a manufacturer.
I don't own stock in Peco, but it might be helpful for a reader to know that I tried really hard to create a short with 50 modern diesel locomotives and couldn't do it.
Doughless50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars. This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8