I like Choice!
Just fish the Uni wire through and it works just fine without it. Later, one can hook up that wire if they choose
Especially choosing to run 0-4-0 switchers at slow speeds in yards.
TF
I'm HO scale.
Can you post your much easier install method?
Where specifically are you connecting 4 wires on the turnout?
Where are you soldering three wires on the switch machine?
Thanks.
bagal I say there is no design iissue with Insulfrog
I say there is no design iissue with Insulfrog
You can say or believe what you like, but Peco has already acknowledged the issue with the identical Unifrog frog design. They plan to re-engineer it to mitigate the issue. Others have reported shorting issues over the years here with the Insulfrog, which is going out of production bit by bit. So just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean all those other people are hallucinating.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
markie97 I have about 40 insulfrog turnouts on my HO scale layout. Both code 100 and code 83. I had to add the .01 strip to the code 100 guard rails. Did not add any insulated rail joiners and in fact added feeders at the outlet of the turnout because the turnout adds resistance at the outlet. Did experience shorting at the code 83 frogs. Fixed that by either filing a bigger gap or using nail polish.
I have about 40 insulfrog turnouts on my HO scale layout. Both code 100 and code 83. I had to add the .01 strip to the code 100 guard rails. Did not add any insulated rail joiners and in fact added feeders at the outlet of the turnout because the turnout adds resistance at the outlet. Did experience shorting at the code 83 frogs. Fixed that by either filing a bigger gap or using nail polish.
To be clear about it, shorting only occurred on a handful of my code 83 turnouts and mainly occurred with a specific manufacturer's locomotives(probably wider wheel threads IDK). My concern about insulating the outlets of the turnout is that you're relying on the point contact to pickup power. In my experience not very reliable.
bagal Like Douglas i have tried to replicate the short. Can do it by tilting a car, but that doesnt replicate real situations. I say there is no design iissue with Insulfrog
Like Douglas i have tried to replicate the short. Can do it by tilting a car, but that doesnt replicate real situations. I say there is no design iissue with Insulfrog
Rich
Alton Junction
Above I mentioned a short with a Walthers locomotive and thought it might be due to out of gauge wheelset. Turns out the second axle was about 20 thou out of gauge.
Like Douglas i have tried to replicate the short. Can do it by tilting a car, but that doesnt replicate real situations. I say there is no design iissue with Insulfrog, just a compatibility issue with some out of specs wheels.
Bagal
riogrande5761 markie97 Did experience shorting at the code 83 frogs. Whaaaat? Thought it was an urban myth.
markie97 Did experience shorting at the code 83 frogs.
Whaaaat? Thought it was an urban myth.
It would be helpful if people report shorts to describe the equipment as to help others understand the problem, because the problem is not the turnout.
Completed the test with all of my locos. Put another 20 cars on the track. Shoved them as far as I could towards the frog and slid them back and forth.
How come I can't produce a short even when I try, and others seem to have them just by running trains?
The issue must not be with the turnout.
Disclosure: I'm running cars produces after 2000 and locos produced after 2008.
But I'm an imprecise guy. I dont know what 0.10" is, or an RP-25, or a bunch of other stuff that gets discussed.
I simply buy stuff, unbox it, install it...and it all works just fine.....over 20 years now. The only thing that didn't work in the past 20 years were those old LL P2K GPs with the cracked gears...because it actually was a flaw...they all didn't work.
I must be living right some how LOL.
- Douglas
Mmmm... will update next club night.
However, last club night we did experience a consistent short from one locomotive on two particular points. The loco is a Walthers loco so unlikely to have wide or no taper wheels. I didn't have my nail polish with me but tried a bit of tape. That didn't cure the problem but is is looking like the leading axle is out of gauge.
bagal
I think the Insulfrog shorting issue is overstated. Our club layout has about 75 HO Insulfrogs, all installed with conductive joiners. Few of our members actually know about the issue and we don't experince shorts that can be attributed to the so called issue.
LastspikemikeThe isolation gap between the two point rails at the heel of the Unifrog is much narrower than in the Insulfrog. Add the power routing difference: Unifrog is not and the point rails therefore always being live, and the Unifrog is more prone to this shorting issue than was the Insulfrog.
Good points.
I will say that I wire the Peco 83s Insulfrog on all three legs since I don't care for the power routing nature of the design, so the rails at the frog are always live. Still no shorts.
There must be a difference in the gap between Unifrog and Insulfrog to where Peco quickly took notice and promised correction.
richhotrain Water Level Route Doughless 50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars. This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8 Sounds like you are also using code 83 like Rich. Like I said in an earlier post, I've got code 100. Hopefully they got it solved on the code 83 and the new unifrog on the code 100. Sounds encouraging that you were unable to recreate the issue with yours. Maybe I got lucky since I bought most of my Peco Insulfrogs during a short time frame but from several different eBay sellers. Perhaps one or more runs were flawed but not all? Dunno. Rich
Water Level Route Doughless 50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars. This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8 Sounds like you are also using code 83 like Rich. Like I said in an earlier post, I've got code 100. Hopefully they got it solved on the code 83 and the new unifrog on the code 100. Sounds encouraging that you were unable to recreate the issue with yours.
Doughless 50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars. This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8
Sounds like you are also using code 83 like Rich. Like I said in an earlier post, I've got code 100. Hopefully they got it solved on the code 83 and the new unifrog on the code 100. Sounds encouraging that you were unable to recreate the issue with yours.
Maybe I got lucky since I bought most of my Peco Insulfrogs during a short time frame but from several different eBay sellers. Perhaps one or more runs were flawed but not all? Dunno.
I once got a bunch of Atlas Custom Line turnouts that had the tangent track bowed so badly it made the turnout look like a wye. Try making a yard ladder or laser straigth mainline with a bowed out tangent track.
Then another bunch of the same Atlas turnouts were laser straight.
I chalked it up to the variables that can occur and the minor issues that need to be solved once in a while.
Along with having to file down the pot metal frogs on Atlas turnouts when one seems too high once in a while.
Its an imprecise hobby.
AEP528 Peco, the manufacturer, has investigated and decided to make changes. The continued arguement over whether or not the issue exists is pointless.
Peco, the manufacturer, has investigated and decided to make changes. The continued arguement over whether or not the issue exists is pointless.
I dont believe that Peco has said anything about the Insulfrog having design issues. Not in the decade or so the turnouts have been around.
Doughless50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars. This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8
Mike
richhotrain Water Level Route Honestly, if I had to start over again today, I would still use my Peco turnouts. The shorting issue is that minor and I like them so much better than the other brands I've used. I have over two dozen Peco Code 83 #6 Insufrogs on my layout. I have no shorting problems whatsoever. Rich
Water Level Route Honestly, if I had to start over again today, I would still use my Peco turnouts. The shorting issue is that minor and I like them so much better than the other brands I've used.
Honestly, if I had to start over again today, I would still use my Peco turnouts. The shorting issue is that minor and I like them so much better than the other brands I've used.
I have over two dozen Peco Code 83 #6 Insufrogs on my layout. I have no shorting problems whatsoever.
Last evening, I spent time putting each locomotive on the tracks, and some rolling stock (mainly Atlas and Athearn RTR trucks) and physically shoved them as far as they could go against the frog on both the tangent and diverging rails, both directions. Slid them back and forth with the power and sound on.
I couldn't produce a short even when trying to do it. 50 different locomotives and about a dozed cars.
This was over Peco Insulfrog #6 and Peco Insulfrog #8 (even narrower?)
My beef is the amount of critical mass that's created by repetitive multiple reporting of a few events where perhaps the nature of the situation contains some unreported variable that has more to do with shorting than to blame it on a manufacturer.
I don't own stock in Peco, but it might be helpful for a reader to know that I tried really hard to create a short with 50 modern diesel locomotives and couldn't do it.
The insulfrog point shorting is not a myth. I have first hand knowledge of the issue and a permanent fix. The gap between the frog guard rails and stock rails is too wide. This allows some locomotives and rolling stock wheels to touch the opposite point rails but not pick it enough to derail it. I fixed all mine by gluing a .010 styrene shim to the guard rails and painting it. No problems after that. I do have one small radius wye that needed .015 thick shim to keep my 0-6-0 from picking and sparking on the point.
Some guys in the club put the nail polish on but the wheel still rides up to almost a derail condition before dropping down on the right side of the frog.
The Peco turnouts are manufactured using HO/OO standards allowing a greater gap in the guard rails to accommodate the OO wheel flanges and are too wide for HO. I have not measured the thickness of the insulation of the frog points, but it is not very thick.
Myth? No. That's a fact check true.
Pete.
riogrande5761 Doughless Unifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments. Unifrog and Insulfrog - the issue is identical. Because the Insulfrog has been around a long time, there have been numerous reports over the years here about it. I am only aware of one or two reports regarding the Unifrog - I found one on Youtube where a hobbyists was getting shorts on their Unifrog #6 and demonstrated it in the video; Peco has acklnowledged the issue. The typical reported solution is to paint the end of the rails near the frog with finger nail polish until it eventually wears of and then repeat as needed. Perhaps Doughless's isn't happy because sometimes it is brought up more than it is reported so he trolls posts about by calling it an urban legend, or maybe fake news, using the current venacular. Whatever, troll-on. Anyway, it's not an issue at all for some, for a few others it is and they get the finger nail polish out. nuff said
Doughless Unifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments.
Unifrog and Insulfrog - the issue is identical. Because the Insulfrog has been around a long time, there have been numerous reports over the years here about it. I am only aware of one or two reports regarding the Unifrog - I found one on Youtube where a hobbyists was getting shorts on their Unifrog #6 and demonstrated it in the video; Peco has acklnowledged the issue.
The typical reported solution is to paint the end of the rails near the frog with finger nail polish until it eventually wears of and then repeat as needed.
Perhaps Doughless's isn't happy because sometimes it is brought up more than it is reported so he trolls posts about by calling it an urban legend, or maybe fake news, using the current venacular. Whatever, troll-on.
Anyway, it's not an issue at all for some, for a few others it is and they get the finger nail polish out.
nuff said
The subject of the thread is not about Unifrog. And if Peco is going to fix it, its going to be a moot issue relatively soon.
Most of the words typed on the internet about the Insulfrog issue come from people who are repeating what someone else said.
Repeated enough to where its gained its own critcal mass....."The Insulfrog Shorting Issue". LOL.
Its akin to modern cut and paste journalism, where, as an example, one report....one...gets repeated by 50 different media outlets, which then becomes "multiple outlets report".
No. Its one report....one...repeated on 50 different outlets.
I believe the Peco press release speaks to the Unifrog, not the previous Insulfrog, so I still don't know how much actual knowledge there is about Insulfrog shorting issues as a design flaw as opposed to "some people with some sort of locos and cars that have some kind of wheel have problems some times."
If I had a problem with shorting, I would file down the outer edge of the two rails near the frog, since the oter edge of the rails is useless. It would create a gap so the outer edge of the fat wheel won't touch the outer edge of the opposing rail. I wouldn't use nail polish.
No different than nipping tie ends to fit two turnouts close together, or clipping those useless switch stand support timbers that get in the way of almost anything.
My layout is filled with medium radius Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts. I have both locomotives and rolling stock that short crossing them. For most, it is so minor and so brief that the DCC system breaker doesn't react. You hear a snap and if dark can see ever so briefly a tiny flash. Most locomotives and rolling stock don't do this, but some do. I only have a couple pre 1990 locomotives and they have not exhibited this issue. I had a new Mantua flatcar as my worst offender until I changed the wheelsets out. Then I acquired a Trix 2-8-2 that is a huge offender. That does short enough to trip the system. Nail polish worked well to address it.
DoughlessUnifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments.
Lastspikemike Doughless I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not. Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else. Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend. We have lots of Insulfrogs and no shorting issues. My very first pair of Unifrog #6 turnouts? One turnout only shorted on one Proto 2000 SW1200 but not on any other of the same model. No other locomotive shorted on the Unifrog. Painting nail polish onto the frog rails did not prevent the one locomotive from shorting so I traded the "faulty" locomotive in for an identical model which does not short over the Unifrogs. I deduce that very few post 1990 locomotives will experience problems with Unifrog turnouts.
Doughless I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not. Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else. Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
I always read comments about the notorious Peco shorting at the frog issue. And I think it applied to Insulfrog. So many comments made, like its a common thing. Which it is not.
Its talked about a lot, but the comments always seem to repeat what someone said someone said happened to somebody else.
Having been a part of these convos, I don't think I've ever read a comment that expressed direct experience with the issue. Kind of an Urban Legend.
We have lots of Insulfrogs and no shorting issues. My very first pair of Unifrog #6 turnouts? One turnout only shorted on one Proto 2000 SW1200 but not on any other of the same model. No other locomotive shorted on the Unifrog. Painting nail polish onto the frog rails did not prevent the one locomotive from shorting so I traded the "faulty" locomotive in for an identical model which does not short over the Unifrogs.
I deduce that very few post 1990 locomotives will experience problems with Unifrog turnouts.
Right. Unifrog has the issue. Insulfrog is more of the Legend, at least judging from the amount of second hand comments compared to first hand comments.
Like I said, all of my loco models are made post 2008, and rolling stock are all post 2000.
I've had those Proto SW units. Nice locos, especially slow runners in DC like a switcher should run. But given the era of pre-2000 Chinese assembly, I would not be surprised if some wheels were out of gauge or tolerances from time to time. I don't think that QC was as consistent back then. JMO.
And my Proto SW switchers were the ones that would occasionally stall over my Atlas switches, when I used Atlas switches. Not short, stall. The Atlas S2/S4 and MP15 were/are excellently consistent regarding electrical pickup.
Nice try Doughless. No, not an urban legend. Maybe lay off the Disney channel for a while
riogrande5761 betamax The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out. Eventually. The #5, #8 turnouts and #7 curved turnouts still come in both Insulfrog and Electrofrog lines. The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem. Wouldn't that mean the rails leading to the frog would be dead for them to not short out if a wide tread metal wheel touched them both, or a wheel without the 3 degree taper?
betamax The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out.
The Insulfrog vs Electrofrog debate is moot anyway, as those two products are being phased out.
Eventually. The #5, #8 turnouts and #7 curved turnouts still come in both Insulfrog and Electrofrog lines.
The issue of the Insulfrog is usually related to installation. Insulated rail joiners in the right places and there is no problem.
The position of the switch rails controls power routing. Insulated rail joiners isolate the point rails from the downstream trackage, so one is dead while the other is powered. No potential, no short.
1arfarf3This applies to both Electrofrog and Unifrog?
Some recommend modifying the electrofrog.
https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Electrofrog
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley