crossthedog Okay, so there must be something wrong with my CV 143, because it definitely doesn't respond to the control. Were you able to turn yours down? What happens if you set yours to '1'?
Okay, so there must be something wrong with my CV 143, because it definitely doesn't respond to the control. Were you able to turn yours down? What happens if you set yours to '1'?
When I changed the value of CV 143 to 1, I essentially could not hear the air pump. But, as I increased the value of CV 143, the sound of the air pump became more perceptible.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainWith the Power Cab, you can make CV changes by Programming on the Main, or OPS mode. You can change the value of CV 143 that way.
Thanks for all the help. Going and testing on your layout to bring back answers is above and beyond the call of duty. Much obliged.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
crossthedog I may retry everything, but it really looks as though my decoder is declining changes to CV 143 on both Program on Main and in PT mode. I might just have to settle for lower overall volume, which is fine with me, but the air pump is still the loudest element even at lower volume.
I may retry everything, but it really looks as though my decoder is declining changes to CV 143 on both Program on Main and in PT mode. I might just have to settle for lower overall volume, which is fine with me, but the air pump is still the loudest element even at lower volume.
The range of sound values is from CV 130 to CV 152. Some of those CVs are general controls over sound, but CV 139 to CV152 relate to specific sounds of varoius steam engine parts. You may need to adjust these various CVs until you find the culprit.
I am not convinced that you have a defective decoder, at least not yet.
richhotrainThe range of sound values is from CV 130 to CV 152. Some of those CVs are general controls over sound, but CV 139 to CV152 relate to specific sounds of varoius steam engine parts. You may need to adjust these various CVs until you find the culprit.
I dropped each CV value from CV 139 to CV152 down to "001", one at a time, putting each one back up to 128 after testing to see if that flushed out the clank. But the clank persisted through each one. Then I went through the same ones again, CV 139 to CV 152, and reduced them all to "001" and kept them there. When I fired up the loco again I was not very surprised to learn that this changed nothing. Whatever sounds those are associated with (and I didn't look at the list because I didn't want the science to be biased by foreknowledge) must be very quiet or rare sounds. There was one exception: the whiney electric sound just before the headlight comes on was suddenly not happening. If there were other changes I did not notice them, but I only ran the loco for a second or two for each test.
In fact I only ever hear four sounds: the clank, the loud chuff, the headlight sound, and a sort of slow airy hiss. I can't recall if the hiss also disappeared. What I mainly remember is that the chuff and the clank never changed when everything was set to a value of "001".
I put the CVs back up to a value of "128". The headlight sound came back on with CV 150.
I don't know what to make of all this, and I've exhausted the percentage of my life that I'm willing to spend on it. I set the master (CV 133) to "20". At least it's quieter.
The one bright thing that came out of all this is that someone (Rich?) pointed me to the 28/128 button, and now my loco doesn't spasm at each speed step anymore. Win!
I am going to refer you to the manual just in case you don't have the full tech manual:
https://www.broadway-limited.com/support/manuals/P2techSteam[1.10].pdf
And the sound, I did not recall you specifying if it only happens while the engin is moving of while its idle. You mention hearing with chuffing, so I am going to assume its while moving. So I wonder if your hearing say rod knock or steam cock sounds. If steam cock sounds, then after running it for a short bit, those should go away. If its the rod knock, thats generally more aroud decelleration, etc. Steam cock volume is in the range you were messing with, but rod knock is not, the volume for that is cv198.
Something else you can try would be to raise the volume of everything else as well to "drown" it out while not being super quiet for the engine as a whole.
For the power issue, as others mentioned, DCC is much more sensitive to that, as motor is not tied directly to power but is driven from a motor controller, meaning the decoder is powered and it then powers the motor. Keep-Alives (GoPacks if you want a BLI one) help with those issues. If the engine has no smoke unit and no tender light, then the decoder could easily be swapped to Paragon 4 which has a mini built in GoPack and support for plugin of their full size one with no soldering required).
So, I have their Paragon 2 file pulled up in their sound editing software, so I can confirm every sound that would/should be on that decoder and can play them individually. I have recorded (as they are not MP3 or WAV so I can't share the file) what they have as the air pump. Is this the noise? https://recorder.google.com/share/9ad7deec-b624-485e-9d5a-55f7f5415b3e
crossthedogThe one bright thing that came out of all this is that someone (Rich?) pointed me to the 28/128 button, and now my loco doesn't spasm at each speed step anymore. Win!
It was actually Robert (CSX Robert) who first suggested it. I also mentioned about adding momentum for additional smoothness between steps and prototypical starts & stops.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Why should all locomotives sound the same?
I worked with heavy equipment for decades. I could tell which Manitowoc 4600 at Harper Brothers I was near just by how it sounded. They had four machines of the same make and model, but they all had unique characteristics.
Cape Coral Hospital had four stand-by generator sets all powered by the same prime mover, but all four sounded unique when they started up and went to load transfer.
Just wondering...
-Kevin
Living the dream.
You can try CV137 as well if its relating to the "background" noise. It control the startup, shutdown, and 3 background sounds volume which may have the sound you are wanting to quiet.
I also loaded both Paragon 2 and Paragon 3/4 sound file in the software and if it is the background sound you are not liking, I did notice they are different between the 2, with the Paragon 3/4 being almost more bass/muted.
Here is a link to the recording I did, as again, they are "raw" files and not MP3 or WAV that I can simply upload for you to hear. I played Paragon 2's version and Paragon 3/4 for comparison.
https://recorder.google.com/share/f101ed67-960e-405b-b0d2-2b425b5327c7
Lastspikemike Paragon 3 included rolling thunder which may explain the perceived difference. That system was designed to also operate a directionless bass woofer, sort of Dolby surround sound for locomotives. I don't think it caught on. This thread illustrates nicely the main drawback to DCC as currently implemented. It's just too complicated to access the correct CV settings when you need to. Even with Decoderpro I'm not sure the situation is improved enough for most of us but I haven't looked at that yet.
Paragon 3 included rolling thunder which may explain the perceived difference. That system was designed to also operate a directionless bass woofer, sort of Dolby surround sound for locomotives. I don't think it caught on.
This thread illustrates nicely the main drawback to DCC as currently implemented. It's just too complicated to access the correct CV settings when you need to.
Even with Decoderpro I'm not sure the situation is improved enough for most of us but I haven't looked at that yet.
Lastspikemike This thread illustrates nicely the main drawback to DCC as currently implemented. It's just too complicated to access the correct CV settings when you need to.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I conducted tests on my layout with two separate locomotives and the decoders worked as expected when changing the values of the applicable sound CVs. I didn't put a stopwatch on it, but no more than 5 minutes elapsed to test the whole series of applicable sound CVs on both locomotives.
What this thread does illustrate is the probable failure of the OP to correctly test the applicable sound CVs (sorry crossthedog, but I can reach no other conclusion). The failure to understand how to correctly apply appropriate values to CVs, a basic and essential part of DCC operation, is often the issue as you have found out in your ESU thread.
That's why you should stick with DC.
I have an NCE system. I love it.
However ... (These are, of course, my opinions. I'm old, I have no technical or electronic background, and I can't remember my own name, let alone CV 27's settings, or was it CV 29? And don't even mention the CVs that need multiple numbers added together to get the final input numbers.)
The advantage for me of DCC was that wiring and running multiple locomotives with sound was fairly easy. I hooked up the wires and began running the trains, without worrying about blocks, turnout wiring, etc. The NCE has a horn button, a bell button, a headlight button, buttons for acceleration, etc.
The issue is that if you want to go deeper, for some of us it is very complicated and is not user friendly.
Over the past years phones, TVs, computers, my car's clock, etc., have all made great efforts to become user-friendly. Adjusting my computer is very straight forward and easy to understand. I don't need to do any math, any referring to a manual, etc.
The computer system itself is very complicated, but the makers have made the user interface so intuitive that adjustments are easy to make or change.
My locomotive, on the other hand, has a learning curve trying to adjust things to the way I want. I did it, but there are other things with the sounds and speeds that I have not adjusted, simply because I don't feel like digging into the user's manual and trying to figure out which CV setting and which function keys I need to adjust. And heaven help me if I set something, try it a while, and want to go back if I didn't write it down.
I even tried the computer system which is supposed to easily set and remember all the CV values. I could not get it to work, even after reading the manuals, consulting others on the forum, and going for online help.
I guess for some, the challenge is part of the hobby. For me, the challenge was frustrating and discouraging.
I know that to most of you, these CVs and values are second nature. To me they're not.
York1 John
LastspikemikeThis thread illustrates nicely the main drawback to DCC as currently implemented. It's just too complicated to access the correct CV settings when you need to.
Ok, so I want to change the volume of the air pump: I look up air pump volume in the manual and see that is CV143. I select the loco on the throttle, hit program, enter 143, enter a new value for the volume, and hit enter. Yes, that's just too complicated.
In this case it didn't work. He's clearly doing the correct steps because he was able to adjust the dynamo sound. There are a few possibilities for why it didn't work: he could have misidentified the sound, it could be incorrect documentation, or it could be the decoder not responding correctly (possibly due to bad or failing EEPROM). None of these issues are caused by DCC as currently implemented.
York1The issue is that if you want to go deeper, for some of us it is very complicated and is not user friendly.
That's how it is with a lot of technology. If I want to use my PC for writing some documents, browsing some websites, reading and responding to email, it's pretty simple and user-friendly; however, if I'm writing my own programs, it's much more complicated.
With DCC, if all I want to do is give each engine an address, some simple speed adjustments, momentum adjustments, and adjust a few volumes if you have sound, then it's pretty simple. The more detail and fine-tuning you get in to; however, the more complicated it gets.
My gosh, I step away for ten minutes and the thread is literally in flames, and the boys are throwing punches.
richhotrainWhat this thread does illustrate is the probable failure of the OP to correctly test the applicable sound CVs (sorry crossthedog, but I can reach no other conclusion). The failure to understand how to correctly apply appropriate values to CVs, a basic and essential part of DCC operation, is often the issue as you have found out in your ESU thread.
However... and all fisticuffs and personal defense aside... I do like the idea of trying CV 198, which I have not yet tested. I will try that in a while, and even though I feel this thread has gone past its sell-by date, I will report back whether it works or fails, for the benefit of future potential posters not capable of testing sound CVs.
And yes...
tsdIs this the noise? https://recorder.google.com/share/9ad7deec-b624-485e-9d5a-55f7f5415b3e
crossthedog richhotrain What this thread does illustrate is the probable failure of the OP to correctly test the applicable sound CVs (sorry crossthedog, but I can reach no other conclusion). The failure to understand how to correctly apply appropriate values to CVs, a basic and essential part of DCC operation, is often the issue as you have found out in your ESU thread. Ouch! To paraphrase Donkey "You cut me, Rich, you cut me deep."
richhotrain What this thread does illustrate is the probable failure of the OP to correctly test the applicable sound CVs (sorry crossthedog, but I can reach no other conclusion). The failure to understand how to correctly apply appropriate values to CVs, a basic and essential part of DCC operation, is often the issue as you have found out in your ESU thread.
Ouch! To paraphrase Donkey "You cut me, Rich, you cut me deep."
But, as I understand it, you cannot lower the volume of that particular sound other than to lower the master volume at the same time, and the sound of the air pump changes only in proportion to the master volume. That is not supposed to be how the individual sounds work.
tsdI also loaded both Paragon 2 and Paragon 3/4 sound file in the software and if it is the background sound you are not liking, I did notice they are different between the 2, with the Paragon 3/4 being almost more bass/muted. Here is a link to the recording I did, as again, they are "raw" files and not MP3 or WAV that I can simply upload for you to hear. I played Paragon 2's version and Paragon 3/4 for comparison. https://recorder.google.com/share/f101ed67-960e-405b-b0d2-2b425b5327c7
And whoever asked about "when" I was hearing it: A: All the time. As soon as I quit programming and go back to the regular train running mode (which means I have to hit Inc or jiggle the throttle wheel slightly) the train starts in with the chuffing, hissing and clanking. Both at idle and at speed, the clanking will abate for stretches of a few seconds or so.
richhotrain I just don't think that you are testing correctly. Again, sorry, but there would seem to be no other conclusion to draw.
It could very well could be a problem with the decoder itself, such as bad or failing eeprom memory.
richhotrainI just don't think that you are testing correctly. Again, sorry, but there would seem to be no other conclusion to draw.
@York, my man. I hear you. More companies need to hire user experience experts before releasing products. Every erg of effort that goes into UX pays off with happy, loyal and even delighted customers.
CSX Robert richhotrain I just don't think that you are testing correctly. Again, sorry, but there would seem to be no other conclusion to draw. It could very well could be a problem with the decoder itself, such as bad or failing eeprom memory.
crossthedog tsd, I'm not sure what the difference was supposed to be between this link and the last one you sent, except that it's different versions of Paragon? It's still the correct sound. All of those recordings are the same sound as the one I'm hearing. And whoever asked about "when" I was hearing it: A: All the time. As soon as I quit programming and go back to the regular train running mode (which means I have to hit Inc or jiggle the throttle wheel slightly) the train starts in with the chuffing, hissing and clanking. Both at idle and at speed, the clanking will abate for stretches of a few seconds or so.
tsd, I'm not sure what the difference was supposed to be between this link and the last one you sent, except that it's different versions of Paragon? It's still the correct sound. All of those recordings are the same sound as the one I'm hearing.
OK so then it may be either CV that I mentioned because the second recording I did, yes I did it of both Paragon 2 and Paragon 3/4 but the recording I did was on Background sound on the decoder which is a seperate file/sound. So you may need/want to adjust CV 198 and 137 as both of them are sounding the same to you, but are indeed for different sounds.
CSX RobertIt could very well could be a problem with the decoder itself, such as bad or failing eeprom memory.
crossthedog richhotrain I just don't think that you are testing correctly. Again, sorry, but there would seem to be no other conclusion to draw. Rich, I'm not horribly offended, just so you know. I don't take things personally.
Rich, I'm not horribly offended, just so you know. I don't take things personally.
tsdSo you may need/want to adjust CV 198 and 137 as both of them are sounding the same to you, but are indeed for different sounds.
crossthedog CSX Robert It could very well could be a problem with the decoder itself, such as bad or failing eeprom memory. Ha! I wasn't going to throw Rich under the bus, but that was the other potential conclusion that I would have pointed out. It may be unlikely, but it's still a possibility.
CSX Robert It could very well could be a problem with the decoder itself, such as bad or failing eeprom memory.
Ha! I wasn't going to throw Rich under the bus, but that was the other potential conclusion that I would have pointed out. It may be unlikely, but it's still a possibility.
richhotrain crossthedog richhotrain I just don't think that you are testing correctly. Again, sorry, but there would seem to be no other conclusion to draw. Rich, I'm not horribly offended, just so you know. I don't take things personally. That is good to know, Matt, and at this point I apologize for even bringing your screen name into the discussion
Thanks all. It's been a riot. Like... almost literally a riot.
crossthedog tsd So you may need/want to adjust CV 198 and 137 as both of them are sounding the same to you, but are indeed for different sounds. Yikes. Not only incapable of handling the IQ requirements of DCC, but deaf as well? It's really not looking good for me here. Check please!
tsd So you may need/want to adjust CV 198 and 137 as both of them are sounding the same to you, but are indeed for different sounds.
Yikes. Not only incapable of handling the IQ requirements of DCC, but deaf as well? It's really not looking good for me here. Check please!
No problem. I honestly had to listen to them again to realize they both sounded very close, as I did them with some time between the two. So not just you, but got me! lol
Lastspikemike I'm pretty sure the clanking sound is not the same as the air pump sound.
I'm pretty sure the clanking sound is not the same as the air pump sound.
Yeah your right, Got the stuff crossed. So yes CV for rod knock would not be it as the recordings I took was of the air pump and background noise. So CV143 for air pump noise, and CV137 which is background, startup and shutdown sound effects, which if you listen to both recordings, 1 is for the air pump noise and the other has the background noise, how close they sound:
Air Pump:
https://recorder.google.com/share/9ad7deec-b624-485e-9d5a-55f7f5415b3e
Background noise (which has how it sounds on both Paragon 2 and Paragon 3/4):
Just as a side note, that CV137 does impact 3 sound sets, but includes the background noise which sounds much like the air pump as well. So that may be why when you change CV143 it did not seem to do anything, because CV137 sounds very close and would play when idle too I believe.
tsdJust as a side note, that CV137 does impact 3 sound sets, but includes the background noise which sounds much like the air pump as well. So that may be why when you change CV143 it did not seem to do anything, because CV137 sounds very close and would play when idle too I believe.
crossthedog It was CV 137. I turned it down to '60' and all is well. I even like it a little bit, when I can hear it underneath the hiss and flow and chuff of the other sounds. Mystery SOLVED. Thanks team.
It was CV 137. I turned it down to '60' and all is well. I even like it a little bit, when I can hear it underneath the hiss and flow and chuff of the other sounds. Mystery SOLVED. Thanks team.
Glad to hear it! If I had to guess, the engine just was not tuned well for that production run or engine when in Paragon 2, that the default for that CV should have been lower.
One thing that people don't always get is that the manual is for say every steam engine. So it may say a default is say 100, that does not mean that is the default for every engine. BLI will tweak default CV's for different engines and at that point is partly the peference of the person tuning the engine for the production run as to what CV's get set to for their default.
Of course this is also why almost everything is customizable via CV :)