,Extending the reversing section only partially solves the problem. the location of the turnout in question creates an electrical reversal. What is the positive on the lower yard leads to the negative on the upper yard.
Trace a rail starting with the rail coming out of the frog side of the turnout that leads into the lower yard. follow that rail thru the yard and you will find that when you get to the turnout at the top entrance the rail is not on the frog side anymore, but rather the other side. the positioning of the turnout creates this. As long as the turnout( the one that causes the short) is in the thru position the yards are not electrically connected and everything is fine. When the divergent route is thrown on the turnout, that connects both yards and a short occurs.
In order to have a continuous flow(same rail) for the positive and negative throught both yards, one of the yards will have to have the + and - reversed. Because a reversing section is at the entance to the lower yard I would reverse the feeders on the lower yard. This moves the shorting point to the entrance to the lower yard. However by expanding the existing reversing section, per Rich's suggestion, to the entrance point of the lower yard the reversing section will correct the mismatch.
By the way I live in Sebring
Doug
At this point, the most important question that I would ask the OP is, which diagram is an accurate representation of your layout - - - the one that Henry posted or the second one, the diagram that the OP posted. If we can focus on one diagram, that would help immensely.
Also, FF raises a good observation about the polarity (or wiring protocol as I call it) of the two yards. Are the two yards wired in phase? Or is the wiring reversed in the other yard?
Rich
Alton Junction
Think they are out of phase to each other when connected bu the turnout . Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
floridaflyer Think they are out of phase Rich. Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
Think they are out of phase Rich. Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
FF, I think what you are suggesting is that the upper yard is wired in phase with the top of the mainline oval, and the lower yard is wired in phase with the bottom of the mainline oval, resulting in the the two yards being out of phase with one another.
Correctamundo Rich. And the cause of this is the way the turnout connects the two yards, it takes the input from the lower yard, call it + on rail A and sends it out as + on rail B to the upper yard. And as the upper yard has - on rail B ( same as the lower track has) there is a short. The turnout has reversed the phase.
When I have made my 2-color, 2-rail drawings, using both Henry's diagram and the OP's diagram, I have assumed that both yards are wired in phase to match the polarities of the top portion of the mainline oval. That assumption also limits the need for auto-reversers to one since there would only be one reversing section (A-C).
Rich, It's the way that the turnout in question connects the two yards that causes the problem, when the divergent route is thrown the +rail from the upper yard is reversed at the turnout and tries to leave on the - of the lower yard, result-short.
the phase of the lower yard needs to be reversed so as to have a smooth flow from the top entrance, on the same rail throught both yards down to the expanded reversing section at the lower turnout. As currently wired, the shorting turnout reverses the rails and the + from the upper yard tries goes out of the turnout on the - of the lower yard. and this causes the short
The turnout in question is still going to reverse the plase of the rails but by reversing the rails in the lower yard, it insures that when the turnout reverses the rails, the + input from the upper yard will still go out on the same rail as it tried to before, but because we reversed the rails on the lower yard that rail is no longer - but + and there is no conflict. It should be noted that now both yards are out of phase with the connection to the main at the entrance to the lower main and that is where the reversing section comes into play Having the rails in phase throughout both yards and the single expanded reversing section at the point where the lower yard rejoins the main will do the trick
Although the OP still has not told us how the service yard is wired in terms of polarity, I finally relented and abandoned my assumption that the upper half of the service yard is wired the same way as the lower half of the service yard.
So, I redid my analysis based upon the assumption that the polarity of the upper portion of the service yard matches the polarity of the top portion of the mainline oval, whereas the polarity of the lower portion of the service yard matches the polarity of the bottom portion of the mailine oval. That results in a polarity mismatch at the end of the divergent side of the "problem" turnout, as florida flyer has pointed out.
If, indeed, the OP wired the service yard in that manner, a simple fix would be to gap the divergent end of the "problem" turnout. That would isolate the lower portion of the service yard, requiring a second auto-reverser in addition to the auto-reverser controlling that A-C reversing section.
That said, if both portions of the service yard were wired the same way with matching polarities to the upper portion of the mainline oval, no second reversing section would be created as a result. In that event, if the three gold-colored gaps were placed as illustrated in a much earlier reply, the layout would function without a short and without the need for a second auto-reverser.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
He spends a lot time posting in the diner, I don't know why he's not cooperating more in here with his problem.
I've been following. It seems you still need a track plan for just what he has?
I dunno!
Mike.
My You Tube
We agree 100%. Either rewire the lower yard to match the upper and use the current reversing section, or isolate the the lower(or upper for that matter) and make it a seperate reversing section. In fact he could isolate the lower and expand the current reversing section to include the lower yard. It's been fun working on this Rich.
mbinsewi He spends a lot time posting in the diner, I don't know why he's not cooperating more in here with his problem. I've been following. It seems you still need a track plan for just what he has? I dunno! Mike.
But, here is what I really wish the OP would do. Tell us how the service yard is wired. Let's say that the feeder wires are blue and red. Which rail is wired blue and which rail is wired red, in the upper portion of the yard and in the lower portion of the yard? How hard can that be to do?
floridaflyer We agree 100%. Either rewire the lower yard to match the upper and use the current reversing section, or isolate the the lower(or upper for that matter) and make it a seperate reversing section. In fact he could isolate the lower and expand the current reversing section to include the lower yard. It's been fun working on this Rich.
The OP has a real job and life can get in the way of MR. He'll last posted yesterday, so it's not like he has abandoned the thread.
We are almost due for a new electrical mystery to appear in a new thread.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
For what it's worth, I started doing an entire track plan with both tracks colored differently and it is too unweildly . I can do the lower yard as a stand alone drawing - that would be doable but after two tries I came up with a mess trying to draw the entire layout. I do read what is written here and have been proceeding one step at a time. I did spend time trying to trace the fault that stops everything as it is the last real issue I see and despite advice and effort is not resolved yet. I will get the yard drawing done and it should be by tomorrow. It is not lack of cooperation so much as the 12 hours a day I spend running this shop. It sort of limits my free time a bit. J.R.
I had a long reply get eaten by the internet monster, but the gist of it was this:
There is a reason I prefer drawing my layout with a CAD program. Anything I would hand draw would be horrible to look at and attempt to decipher. Some even can automatically set one rail to one color and the other rail to another color. I have to see if mine can do that, because a friend of mine wands a wiring diagram for the layout I drew for him.
Part 2 was - to check for the right color feeders and bus, take a cheap plastic box car and paint one side the color of one bus line, and the other side the color of the other bus wire, split down the middle the long way. Put the car on the track and don't pick it up. The approriate color side is the bus that that rail should be connected to. If the car comes back to a spot that is already wired and the colors are swapped, that means you have a reverse loop. No electronics, no gadgets, just a cheap train set car and some cheap paint.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
Looking at the top track in the service yard (the track right below the blue colored classification yard tracks), what color feeder wire is connected to the top rail and what color feeder wire is connected to the bottom rail?
Looking at the bottom track in the service yard (the track right above the purple colored main line track), what color feeder wire is connected to the top rail and what color feeder wire is connected to the bottom rail?
Tell us that and we can definitively solve your problem.
GMTRacing service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
- Douglas
All,
Taking a break and heading out early to look at this some more. I am convinced you are correct and I have a polarity conflict in the middle of the yard. It's just a matter of finding it.
The service yard drawing has little black and red dots next to the left hand end of each track. They represent the colors of the drops to the buss (also color coded below the layout). I used just two color drops and tried to keep them phased properly so I could trace more easily. Also each buss is color coded differently and numbered for good measure.
I tried to prove the track as I went along but the big issue I came here for showed up after the service yard was put in this year. So yes, first thing to check is what you did last. I did just that. The shorting turnout at the yard throat is one that had no diverging track connected to it prior to this year. Obviously I didn't do myself any favours waiting several years between stints on the layout but work and life got in the way and bottom line is your discretionary time gets cut first. Not an excuse, just an observation.
As I have said before, I do appreciate the help and I do keep the forum on a tab during the day sneaking a peek between office visits and the shop. The diner has been a habit since I first came here years ago and I see some of you in and out of there as well. I am much more comfortable giving chassis setup advice than model railroad advice and DCC frequently has me flummoxed (something to do with a lifetime of dealing with Lucas electrics I think). I'm willing to learn.
Cheers, J.R.
Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered.
But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short.
GMTRacingThe service yard drawing has little black and red dots next to the left hand end of each track. They represent the colors of the drops to the buss (also color coded below the layout). I used just two color drops and tried to keep them phased properly so I could trace more easily. Also each buss is color coded differently and numbered for good measure.
So, the entire service yard is wired in phase. That being the case, if you locate the gaps where I drew gold circles in the diagram on page 2, the layout will work without shorting, regardless of the position of the point rails on the offending turnout.
By the way, that leftmost gold colored (circle) gap on the inner mainline is critical to completely isolating the reversing section. Once that is done, the service yard is no longer a reversing section. The only reversing section is that section of track that Henry designated as A-C.
richhotrain Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered. But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short. Rich
Nevermind. Still confused so I'll bow out.
Doughless richhotrain Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered. But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short. Rich Ok I get it. I didn't catch that the problem had gotten narrowed down to that.
Ok I get it. I didn't catch that the problem had gotten narrowed down to that.
The way that the layout is gapped right now, when the point rails on the offending turnout are thrown to the divergent route, a short occurs due to mismatched polarities where the inner mainline runs along the bottom of the diagram provided by the OP. That's why he needs to add a pair of gaps at the location of the mismatched polarities.
Doughless Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped. Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop.
Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped.
Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop.
richhotrain Doughless Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped. Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop. Again, as it turns out, the upper and lower portions of the service yard are wired the same way. So, the problem is located below the service yard where the inner mainline meets the connection to/from the lower portion of the service yard. The OP needs to add a pair of gaps at that location. Rich
Again, as it turns out, the upper and lower portions of the service yard are wired the same way. So, the problem is located below the service yard where the inner mainline meets the connection to/from the lower portion of the service yard. The OP needs to add a pair of gaps at that location.
Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread.
Doughless Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread.
Sure wish we would have recognized the dots earlier.
Good Morning All,
I added gaps as suggested and I think though it shouldn't be that somehow I generated an out of polarity situation with the turnout that shorted out the entire yard. Gapping the divergent route stopped the shorting. I also added all the other gaps suggested so the main is entirely isolated from the lower yard throat. With all the yard tracks powered just on the end, I now get dead spots in the yard depending on how the power routing turnouts are set so more drops are in order though this time I will connect them one at a time and prove each one one at a time. I did while going through the yard turnouts find one where I think the frog tracks were so close they actually touched. Since it was over by the back shop the tracks were frequently unpowered as the intent is to tie up MOW equipment there. switching to power that section of rail generated the short but only when the points directed power there. I've never been an ace at trackwork but i outdid myself this time. As always, slow steady and methodical would have saved the day. After I do the rest of the drops and prove them, I will report back. Thanks again to all. J.R.
J.R., thanks for that update. If you want to hold off for a few hours before adding more feeders, I will post a drawing to illustrate the location and placement of gaps and feeders now that we more fully understand what you have done with gaps and feeders. That way, you can have a more productive, and successful, weekend with your layout.
richhotrain Doughless Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread. Correct. When you think about it, most problems with reversing sections occur either due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. That sure seems to be the case here, pending the OP following up on all of our replies. Sometimes, the problem can be a faulty turnout, a trip setting on the auto-reverser, or a closed gap, but most often it is due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. Rich
Correct. When you think about it, most problems with reversing sections occur either due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. That sure seems to be the case here, pending the OP following up on all of our replies. Sometimes, the problem can be a faulty turnout, a trip setting on the auto-reverser, or a closed gap, but most often it is due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring.
Agreed, that's why my second thought in my first post was asking of the mainline loop gaps were still functioning correctly.