Rich and Big Daddy raise a point. I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
As far as the light check, if he goes from the positive rail on the upper track to the negative rail on the lower track , it should light, if it doesn't something is backwards. He could also go + to + or - to - and it should not light. If is does light, again, something is backwards.
When I first made the suggestion to use a test lamp (incandescent or resistored LED), I was addressing the OP's question about how to determine if the reversing section is working correctly under the control of the PSX-AR.
If you put one leg of the test lamp on a rail outside of the reversing section and the other leg of the test lamp on the same rail (across the gap) inside the reversing section, it will not light if the rail segments are the same polarity. It will light if the rail segments are the opposite polarity.
Rich
Alton Junction
Agree Rich. And if he does the same thing between the upper track in the yard and the lower track in the yard, with the dividing point being the turnout in question, he should get the same results. If he doesn't something is backwards.
floridaflyer I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
One, any and all of the feeders inside the reversing section need to be connected to the output side of the auto-reverser. If any feeders inside the reversing section are connected outside of the reversing section a dead short will occur.
Two, the reversing section needs to be completely isolated from the rest of the layout. This means that there must be enough gaps placed at the apppropriate locations to ensure complete isolation. That is why any turnouts within the reversing section become suspect when a short occurs.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track. It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Rich, it does show the complete isolation of the yard with the three vertical black lines on the right of the diagram. any shorting problem would have to be internal to the yard, however the hand drawn diagram does show the turntable lead as part of the yard, but if the PSX-AR in on the turntable only this should not be a factor, but that is not specifically shown.
I believe that the angled black line in the far lower right of the diagram is the end of the reversing section that is shown in green on the hand drawn diagram.
So, that diagram just shows the yard where there is no reversing section. The reversing section is not really shown in the diagram except a small portion in the lower right corner of the diagram. Is that what we are saying?
I believe so. I redid my drawing in case the accidental gaps were misleading.
We are presuming the AR in the yard is somehow connected to the turntable wiring.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I think that is correct Rich
Big Daddy, the OP's diagram does show gaps behind the shed to the rear of the roundhouse.
floridaflyerBig Daddy, the OP's diagram does show gaps behind the shed to the rear of the roundhouse.
I added that to my drawing. I'm not sure what that gets us. Is his theory that polarity can be tested with an led correct?
Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard. The turnout in question is the point at which the short occurs when the divergent route is thrown. At least I think so.
floridaflyer Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard.
Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard.
Rich, I traced the same route on the latest diagram the OP provided, same result.
I see Florida's C-A-D-C path. I also remember that thread where the OP kept giving us different track plans.
OK, let me take a shot at it.
OK, I took a close look at the diagram that Henry first posted. To facilitate my analysis, I left out some tracks that I believe were not necessary to the analysis. So, that could have been a mistake, but I don't think so.
Here is what I found. The green line is, indeed, a reversing section, but the gapping is wrong. The gap at C is correct, but the gap at A is not correct. The gap to the left of the gap at A is correct.
Now, to completely isolate the reversing section, the gap at A needs to be moved down to the opposite end of the turnout, and a gap needs to be added to the other end of that second turnout because that lower yard lead track creates a point of reverse polarity.
I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard. If he wired the upper yard "outside" track and the lower "outside" the same, (either + or -) then he will have a short when the turnout is thrown as the + and - switch rails in the yard.
floridaflyer I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard
I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard
Rich, If the OP wired the "outside" rail positive in the upper yard, and the 'outside" rail positive in the lower yard, seeing as the polarity switches rails in the yard there would be a short as soon as the power routing turnout is thrown to the divergent position and the two yards, with the + on different rails at the point of connection, are indeed connected. Just trying to figure why the short in a completely isolated section of track. Have to admit I do enjoy these puzzles.
FF, are you basing your analysis on Henry's diagram or the OP's diagram?
I can use both but Henry's is clearer without the jog leading to the TT. when I say "outside" rail I am using the position of the rail as it enters from the main. Not at all sure that this is the situation but if he did use the outside rail as a reference point at both entrances then he will have a conflict at the junction point of the two yards, as the outside of one yard becomes the inside of the other
FF, if I understand you correctly, you are touching upon something that could be key to solving the OP's problem. That something would be his wiring protocol. Since the mainline folds back upon itself, via the A to C connection, the A-C track segment forms a reversing section.
When I drew out a 2-color, 2-rail, track diagram based upon Henry's drawing, I had both yards wired in parallel, so there would be no shorts inside the yard. But if the OP wired it differently, there could be a reversing section between the yards.
Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict at the turnout in question, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
floridaflyer Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
I inserted gold colored circles where the gaps should be placed. The two yards should be wired the same way as the mainline above the upper yard.
Edit Note: Remove the gaps at the location marked A. The lower most gold colored circle represents the gap moved further down from location A.
That works, keep the polarity constant off the upper main line and he should be good to go.
Also, that gap at the bottom right where the mainline branches into the lower yard is correctly placed where rails of opposite polarity meet right before that diagonal track running NW to SE. The remaining gaps are placed to the left of the Back Shop and up at the top right before the upper yard connects back to the mainline.
So, what we have is one big reversing section consisting of both the upper yard and the lower yard. That reversing section is in addition to the reversing section just out of view on the right side of the diagram.
So, because the circled turnout shorts the layout when the points are thrown, it must be a wiring problem inside that big reversing section. Or, not.
P.S. I am going golfing before I go crazy.
(duplicate reply deleted)
All,
After 24 hours driving time over two days back from Sebring, I had major issues with my one knee so didn't get much done. However, I altered the reversing block per the suggestion with the gold dots above so it now extends to the lower service yard entrance and also has gaps at the two other outer main tracks. The service yard itself is as it was with an AR feeding it via a single buss and drops all phased the same. The turntable is currently disconnected while I sort the rest of this as I used the AR for it to power the service yard. I did not yet check the phase of each track in the service yard as I just wasn't up to it yet. It shouldn't make any difference if two Auto Reverse blocks abut each other so long as they are gapped, correct? J.R.