Your link seems to be something on this site, perhaps the Community Photo Galleries, but we can't see it. I think we are going to need a pic.
GMTRacingSometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
What changes?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Does the loco stall on turnout or on a regular stretch of track?
Maybe just do a very careful, one wire at a time, look at your bus, and feeder connections.
Yea, I know, "All the tracks all seem to be wired OK". Maybe not?
Mike.
My You Tube
GMTRacing Either yard is entered from the lower main line from a common throat. There the throat divides into the classification yard and the service yard. The classification side seems ok, but the service yard is giving me fits. All the tracks seem to be wired ok, the gaps are by cuts and insulating joiners both and with the power off, everything is isolated from the rest of the layout. When a locomotive enters the throat, it will stall when it enters the service yard lead. No breaker lights go on but once the whole thing shut off and reset. Sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
Either yard is entered from the lower main line from a common throat. There the throat divides into the classification yard and the service yard. The classification side seems ok, but the service yard is giving me fits.
All the tracks seem to be wired ok, the gaps are by cuts and insulating joiners both and with the power off, everything is isolated from the rest of the layout.
When a locomotive enters the throat, it will stall when it enters the service yard lead. No breaker lights go on but once the whole thing shut off and reset.
Sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
My first question relates to the PSX-AR. Where is the reversing section in all of this?
You say that the classification yard "seems OK". Is it OK or isn't it OK?
You say that a locomotive will stall when it enters the service yard lead. Will it "stall" or is it the result of a short?
You say that sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things. "Seems to"? How so? Does the problem occur on the turnout?
We need to know more here, and you need to pin down the problem more definitively. "Seems to" is too vague and uncertain for a precise analysis of the problem.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thank you for the responses. I will do a track diagram and get that posted as soon as I can as I'm on the road for the next week.
I looked at the drops again and cannot see a fault in either main so I concentrated on the yards. The classification yard all works. Seems to work was misleading, I don't get any stalls or short lights in there at all. It is isolated from all the rest and has its own circuit on the breaker.
I found turnout position on one end of the service yard affected the locomotive running to prove the tracks. Since the PECO turnouts are power routing, throwing the points to remove power allowed the locomotive to continue up the throat but only to the gaps for the service yard. I could hear the breaker reset in the locomotive so at that point I shut everything down and went back to checking drops and continuity. I did find a simple mistake at that point as I had two entrances to the service yard from opposite sides of the loop of track around the yard. That set up a reverse polarity issue. Oddly running into the area didn't light the short LED on the PSX. Since I didn't have the PSX/AR for the turntable hooked up, I hooked the service yard to that AR and could then enter the throat from the previous place of reverse polarity . I still have something else going on and will next time recheck continuity in the power routing turnouts and recheck drops to the buss though those are fairly simple. The gaps for the service yard show no continuity so that is correct. Is there anyway to actually check polarity on the track? When I laid out the mains, I checked and proved everything one section at a time and thought it was correct. The issues seem to be around the service yard now. Thanks again for the advice. J.R.
GMTRacing The gaps for the service yard show no continuity so that is correct. Is there anyway to actually check polarity on the track?
The gaps for the service yard show no continuity so that is correct. Is there anyway to actually check polarity on the track?
One way is to watch the D6 LED on the PSX-AR board. As a locomotive enters the reversing section, the D6 LED will either begin flashing or it will go off, depending upon the order of wiring from the output side of the PSX-AR. Let's say, the D6 LED flashes as the locomotive enters the reversing section. The D6 LED will go off when the locomotive exits the reversing section. If the locomotive then stops and changes direction, the D6 LED will remain off as the locomotive re-enters the reversing section. The D6 LED will begin flashing as the locomotive exits the reversing section. That alternating LED signal, either flashing or off, indicates the status of the polarities inside and outside the reversing section.
Another way to check polarity inside a reversing section is to use a test bulb or resistored LED. Put the two legs of the bulb or LED across the gap on the same rail. If it lights, the polarities inside and outside the reversing section are mismatched. If it doesn't light, the polarities inside and outside the reversing section are matched which can be proven by putting one leg on a rail inside the reversing section and the other leg on the opposite rail outside the reversing section to produce light.
A third method is a voltmeter. Use the probes in place of the legs of the bulb or LED.
Do you have any power routing turnouts? That one fried my brain in a yard once with peocs. You would think it wouldnt matter, but beacuse the way it powers the end rails if you have additional feeders past the turnout it can create a short or a dead spot depending on your wiring
I've never played with trip currents, but I will once my layout is back up. I have a similar problem, but only the first time through. After that it's fine until the next session.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thank you all again for the help. Yes the turnouts are all power routing Insulfrog type unmodified. I have been checking things and have found besides the polarity problem at the lower yard entrance, that the yard throat turnout from the main creates a dead short, and one turnout in the middle of the yard stops everything as well. I am stymied trying to get track layout scan from my 'puter to Flickr but will continue to try to get that done before I go out on the road tomorrow morning. Thanks again, J.R.
service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
JR I sent you a pm.
Meanwhile maybe this page will help. What the article calls "point rails" most of us call frog rails.
https://dccwiki.com/Peco_Insulfrog
Henry, I think you hit the mark with the entry throat problem. I was starting to suspect as much but didn't confirm the issue. I have the DCC tutorial saved on my 'puter but hadn't read as far as the turnouts yet. I will try to space and insulate the heel of the entry turnout frog next time I work on the layout (probably not until next week when I return from my road trip). Thanks, J.R.
Here is the layout in question. I'm on my way out the door and haven't had time to think about it.
Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
service yard track plan 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard sketch" />
It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Is the PSX-AR in the red section needed for the turntable? I'm having a hard time seeing another reversing section in tht zone.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track. service yard track plan 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard sketch" /> It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Where do you feel the reversing section is located and where are all of the gaps located to fully isolate the reversing section?
This is the only reversing section I see, but there maybe others. He does have 2 PSX-AR's From A to C, it looks short, but that may just be it is not to scale.
On the second drawing both A B and D are the same points as the 1st drawing. The shorted turnout is in the center of the star.
Comparing both drawings, I think the connections to the mainline are at the two tracks at the very bottom right and the yellow star on the top right side of the page.
Henry,
B in the first sketch is on the other side of the aisle. I tried to make things clearer by taking out most of the main lines and classification yard. B in the second sketch is the start of the green reversing section in the first sketch. A is the isolator between the service yard and the yard throat. D is the isolator between the the lower and elevated parts of the main. The star is in fact where the turnout shorts the yard. Just to the left of B in the second sketch is the second isolator for the service yard.
On a brighter note, thank you. The medium turnout at the entrance to the yard throat shorts out the system. I also found one other medium radius turnout that can short out and will now check all the rest of them. The turnouts i'm having trouble with are the oldest I have recycled from a previous layout. J.R.
I'm lost. Where is the reversing section in the second drawing? I am not saying that there isn't one. I just have no idea where it is situated in that second drawing.
Rich, it is just a stub on the lower right. I will when I return from my trip take my drafting kit, colored pencils and paper and do the whole track plan in a larger format and then figure out how to get it onto the forum. I am out of time for now as I have to get up and go at three this morning. Thank you for your patience. J.R.
richhotrainI'm lost.
The second drawing is just a close up of the center of the first drawing, that's why I put the letters in for reference. Try opening them up in different tabs and switch back and forth.
If the reversing section is simply a straight section of track between two turnouts, it would be isolated by gaps at both ends of that straight section of track. Simple enough. So, if the reversing section is correctly gapped, then there is a wiring problem inside the reversing section.
Rich,
I'm back but no drawing just yet. To update, the reversing section works just fine as built, it is a straight section with gaps at both ends. A large issue was the medium and large radius PECO turnouts I'm using. I was unaware they are prone to shorting across the gap of the frog and I'm correctiing that. I have one more issue I will explore after I have modified my turnouts. Hopefully I can start on the drawing tonight. Cheers, J.R.
If I recall correctly, these are Peco Code 100 Insulfrogs. Correct?
Yes that is correct. I didn't realize the wheels could bridge the gap at the start of the frog. I used the dremel to contour the middle down far enough back to stop that happening and will fill the contour with epoxy and finish the top back to flat. The alternative was to gap the turnouts just past the frog and I thought that not as good an idea. I had no idea the frogs were a problem until it was pointed out to me. Previously I had DC and no issues. The tutorial was a big help there. Any different ideas before I get the Dremel back out? We live and learn. J.R.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
Looking at your diagram, are the tracks above the turnout in phase with the tracks below the turnout(is the positive and ground on the same rail on all tracks) ?
I have checked the drops and buss and it all seems in order though logic dictates that they can't be if it all stops when the one turnout that connects the upper and lower yard entry is thrown. One buss feeds the whole thing and the yard is isolated from the rest of the trackage. That is the reason I have been reading the tutorial, I never knew how much I didn't know. I will try the one suggestion of using an LED with a large resistor to check polarity between the two sections of the yard. Not sure how else I can check that. Of all the issues, that now seems the most serious. J.R.
I wish that you could post a photo of the reversing section and connecting tracks.
Your most recent diagram and the one posted by Henry (Big Daddy) are dramatically different with the diagram posted by Henry showing a straight reversing section with no turnouts inside the reversing section, whereas your diagram shows any number of turnouts and connecting tracks.
It is impossible to get a sense of the overall layout, or at least the affected area.
GMTRacingI will try the one suggestion of using an LED with a large resistor to check polarity
Does that work?
Reading this thread, I would think an LED would be lit all the time
caboose lighting
Rich and Big Daddy raise a point. I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
As far as the light check, if he goes from the positive rail on the upper track to the negative rail on the lower track , it should light, if it doesn't something is backwards. He could also go + to + or - to - and it should not light. If is does light, again, something is backwards.
When I first made the suggestion to use a test lamp (incandescent or resistored LED), I was addressing the OP's question about how to determine if the reversing section is working correctly under the control of the PSX-AR.
If you put one leg of the test lamp on a rail outside of the reversing section and the other leg of the test lamp on the same rail (across the gap) inside the reversing section, it will not light if the rail segments are the same polarity. It will light if the rail segments are the opposite polarity.
Agree Rich. And if he does the same thing between the upper track in the yard and the lower track in the yard, with the dividing point being the turnout in question, he should get the same results. If he doesn't something is backwards.
floridaflyer I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
One, any and all of the feeders inside the reversing section need to be connected to the output side of the auto-reverser. If any feeders inside the reversing section are connected outside of the reversing section a dead short will occur.
Two, the reversing section needs to be completely isolated from the rest of the layout. This means that there must be enough gaps placed at the apppropriate locations to ensure complete isolation. That is why any turnouts within the reversing section become suspect when a short occurs.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track. It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Rich, it does show the complete isolation of the yard with the three vertical black lines on the right of the diagram. any shorting problem would have to be internal to the yard, however the hand drawn diagram does show the turntable lead as part of the yard, but if the PSX-AR in on the turntable only this should not be a factor, but that is not specifically shown.
I believe that the angled black line in the far lower right of the diagram is the end of the reversing section that is shown in green on the hand drawn diagram.
So, that diagram just shows the yard where there is no reversing section. The reversing section is not really shown in the diagram except a small portion in the lower right corner of the diagram. Is that what we are saying?
I believe so. I redid my drawing in case the accidental gaps were misleading.
We are presuming the AR in the yard is somehow connected to the turntable wiring.
I think that is correct Rich
Big Daddy, the OP's diagram does show gaps behind the shed to the rear of the roundhouse.
floridaflyerBig Daddy, the OP's diagram does show gaps behind the shed to the rear of the roundhouse.
I added that to my drawing. I'm not sure what that gets us. Is his theory that polarity can be tested with an led correct?
Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard. The turnout in question is the point at which the short occurs when the divergent route is thrown. At least I think so.
floridaflyer Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard.
Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard.
Rich, I traced the same route on the latest diagram the OP provided, same result.
I see Florida's C-A-D-C path. I also remember that thread where the OP kept giving us different track plans.
OK, let me take a shot at it.
OK, I took a close look at the diagram that Henry first posted. To facilitate my analysis, I left out some tracks that I believe were not necessary to the analysis. So, that could have been a mistake, but I don't think so.
Here is what I found. The green line is, indeed, a reversing section, but the gapping is wrong. The gap at C is correct, but the gap at A is not correct. The gap to the left of the gap at A is correct.
Now, to completely isolate the reversing section, the gap at A needs to be moved down to the opposite end of the turnout, and a gap needs to be added to the other end of that second turnout because that lower yard lead track creates a point of reverse polarity.
I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard. If he wired the upper yard "outside" track and the lower "outside" the same, (either + or -) then he will have a short when the turnout is thrown as the + and - switch rails in the yard.
floridaflyer I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard
I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard
Rich, If the OP wired the "outside" rail positive in the upper yard, and the 'outside" rail positive in the lower yard, seeing as the polarity switches rails in the yard there would be a short as soon as the power routing turnout is thrown to the divergent position and the two yards, with the + on different rails at the point of connection, are indeed connected. Just trying to figure why the short in a completely isolated section of track. Have to admit I do enjoy these puzzles.
FF, are you basing your analysis on Henry's diagram or the OP's diagram?
I can use both but Henry's is clearer without the jog leading to the TT. when I say "outside" rail I am using the position of the rail as it enters from the main. Not at all sure that this is the situation but if he did use the outside rail as a reference point at both entrances then he will have a conflict at the junction point of the two yards, as the outside of one yard becomes the inside of the other
FF, if I understand you correctly, you are touching upon something that could be key to solving the OP's problem. That something would be his wiring protocol. Since the mainline folds back upon itself, via the A to C connection, the A-C track segment forms a reversing section.
When I drew out a 2-color, 2-rail, track diagram based upon Henry's drawing, I had both yards wired in parallel, so there would be no shorts inside the yard. But if the OP wired it differently, there could be a reversing section between the yards.
Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict at the turnout in question, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
floridaflyer Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
I inserted gold colored circles where the gaps should be placed. The two yards should be wired the same way as the mainline above the upper yard.
Edit Note: Remove the gaps at the location marked A. The lower most gold colored circle represents the gap moved further down from location A.
That works, keep the polarity constant off the upper main line and he should be good to go.
Also, that gap at the bottom right where the mainline branches into the lower yard is correctly placed where rails of opposite polarity meet right before that diagonal track running NW to SE. The remaining gaps are placed to the left of the Back Shop and up at the top right before the upper yard connects back to the mainline.
So, what we have is one big reversing section consisting of both the upper yard and the lower yard. That reversing section is in addition to the reversing section just out of view on the right side of the diagram.
So, because the circled turnout shorts the layout when the points are thrown, it must be a wiring problem inside that big reversing section. Or, not.
P.S. I am going golfing before I go crazy.
(duplicate reply deleted)
All,
After 24 hours driving time over two days back from Sebring, I had major issues with my one knee so didn't get much done. However, I altered the reversing block per the suggestion with the gold dots above so it now extends to the lower service yard entrance and also has gaps at the two other outer main tracks. The service yard itself is as it was with an AR feeding it via a single buss and drops all phased the same. The turntable is currently disconnected while I sort the rest of this as I used the AR for it to power the service yard. I did not yet check the phase of each track in the service yard as I just wasn't up to it yet. It shouldn't make any difference if two Auto Reverse blocks abut each other so long as they are gapped, correct? J.R.
,Extending the reversing section only partially solves the problem. the location of the turnout in question creates an electrical reversal. What is the positive on the lower yard leads to the negative on the upper yard.
Trace a rail starting with the rail coming out of the frog side of the turnout that leads into the lower yard. follow that rail thru the yard and you will find that when you get to the turnout at the top entrance the rail is not on the frog side anymore, but rather the other side. the positioning of the turnout creates this. As long as the turnout( the one that causes the short) is in the thru position the yards are not electrically connected and everything is fine. When the divergent route is thrown on the turnout, that connects both yards and a short occurs.
In order to have a continuous flow(same rail) for the positive and negative throught both yards, one of the yards will have to have the + and - reversed. Because a reversing section is at the entance to the lower yard I would reverse the feeders on the lower yard. This moves the shorting point to the entrance to the lower yard. However by expanding the existing reversing section, per Rich's suggestion, to the entrance point of the lower yard the reversing section will correct the mismatch.
By the way I live in Sebring
Doug
At this point, the most important question that I would ask the OP is, which diagram is an accurate representation of your layout - - - the one that Henry posted or the second one, the diagram that the OP posted. If we can focus on one diagram, that would help immensely.
Also, FF raises a good observation about the polarity (or wiring protocol as I call it) of the two yards. Are the two yards wired in phase? Or is the wiring reversed in the other yard?
Think they are out of phase to each other when connected bu the turnout . Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
floridaflyer Think they are out of phase Rich. Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
Think they are out of phase Rich. Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
FF, I think what you are suggesting is that the upper yard is wired in phase with the top of the mainline oval, and the lower yard is wired in phase with the bottom of the mainline oval, resulting in the the two yards being out of phase with one another.
Correctamundo Rich. And the cause of this is the way the turnout connects the two yards, it takes the input from the lower yard, call it + on rail A and sends it out as + on rail B to the upper yard. And as the upper yard has - on rail B ( same as the lower track has) there is a short. The turnout has reversed the phase.
When I have made my 2-color, 2-rail drawings, using both Henry's diagram and the OP's diagram, I have assumed that both yards are wired in phase to match the polarities of the top portion of the mainline oval. That assumption also limits the need for auto-reversers to one since there would only be one reversing section (A-C).
Rich, It's the way that the turnout in question connects the two yards that causes the problem, when the divergent route is thrown the +rail from the upper yard is reversed at the turnout and tries to leave on the - of the lower yard, result-short.
the phase of the lower yard needs to be reversed so as to have a smooth flow from the top entrance, on the same rail throught both yards down to the expanded reversing section at the lower turnout. As currently wired, the shorting turnout reverses the rails and the + from the upper yard tries goes out of the turnout on the - of the lower yard. and this causes the short
The turnout in question is still going to reverse the plase of the rails but by reversing the rails in the lower yard, it insures that when the turnout reverses the rails, the + input from the upper yard will still go out on the same rail as it tried to before, but because we reversed the rails on the lower yard that rail is no longer - but + and there is no conflict. It should be noted that now both yards are out of phase with the connection to the main at the entrance to the lower main and that is where the reversing section comes into play Having the rails in phase throughout both yards and the single expanded reversing section at the point where the lower yard rejoins the main will do the trick
Although the OP still has not told us how the service yard is wired in terms of polarity, I finally relented and abandoned my assumption that the upper half of the service yard is wired the same way as the lower half of the service yard.
So, I redid my analysis based upon the assumption that the polarity of the upper portion of the service yard matches the polarity of the top portion of the mainline oval, whereas the polarity of the lower portion of the service yard matches the polarity of the bottom portion of the mailine oval. That results in a polarity mismatch at the end of the divergent side of the "problem" turnout, as florida flyer has pointed out.
If, indeed, the OP wired the service yard in that manner, a simple fix would be to gap the divergent end of the "problem" turnout. That would isolate the lower portion of the service yard, requiring a second auto-reverser in addition to the auto-reverser controlling that A-C reversing section.
That said, if both portions of the service yard were wired the same way with matching polarities to the upper portion of the mainline oval, no second reversing section would be created as a result. In that event, if the three gold-colored gaps were placed as illustrated in a much earlier reply, the layout would function without a short and without the need for a second auto-reverser.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
He spends a lot time posting in the diner, I don't know why he's not cooperating more in here with his problem.
I've been following. It seems you still need a track plan for just what he has?
I dunno!
We agree 100%. Either rewire the lower yard to match the upper and use the current reversing section, or isolate the the lower(or upper for that matter) and make it a seperate reversing section. In fact he could isolate the lower and expand the current reversing section to include the lower yard. It's been fun working on this Rich.
mbinsewi He spends a lot time posting in the diner, I don't know why he's not cooperating more in here with his problem. I've been following. It seems you still need a track plan for just what he has? I dunno! Mike.
But, here is what I really wish the OP would do. Tell us how the service yard is wired. Let's say that the feeder wires are blue and red. Which rail is wired blue and which rail is wired red, in the upper portion of the yard and in the lower portion of the yard? How hard can that be to do?
floridaflyer We agree 100%. Either rewire the lower yard to match the upper and use the current reversing section, or isolate the the lower(or upper for that matter) and make it a seperate reversing section. In fact he could isolate the lower and expand the current reversing section to include the lower yard. It's been fun working on this Rich.
The OP has a real job and life can get in the way of MR. He'll last posted yesterday, so it's not like he has abandoned the thread.
We are almost due for a new electrical mystery to appear in a new thread.
For what it's worth, I started doing an entire track plan with both tracks colored differently and it is too unweildly . I can do the lower yard as a stand alone drawing - that would be doable but after two tries I came up with a mess trying to draw the entire layout. I do read what is written here and have been proceeding one step at a time. I did spend time trying to trace the fault that stops everything as it is the last real issue I see and despite advice and effort is not resolved yet. I will get the yard drawing done and it should be by tomorrow. It is not lack of cooperation so much as the 12 hours a day I spend running this shop. It sort of limits my free time a bit. J.R.
I had a long reply get eaten by the internet monster, but the gist of it was this:
There is a reason I prefer drawing my layout with a CAD program. Anything I would hand draw would be horrible to look at and attempt to decipher. Some even can automatically set one rail to one color and the other rail to another color. I have to see if mine can do that, because a friend of mine wands a wiring diagram for the layout I drew for him.
Part 2 was - to check for the right color feeders and bus, take a cheap plastic box car and paint one side the color of one bus line, and the other side the color of the other bus wire, split down the middle the long way. Put the car on the track and don't pick it up. The approriate color side is the bus that that rail should be connected to. If the car comes back to a spot that is already wired and the colors are swapped, that means you have a reverse loop. No electronics, no gadgets, just a cheap train set car and some cheap paint.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Looking at the top track in the service yard (the track right below the blue colored classification yard tracks), what color feeder wire is connected to the top rail and what color feeder wire is connected to the bottom rail?
Looking at the bottom track in the service yard (the track right above the purple colored main line track), what color feeder wire is connected to the top rail and what color feeder wire is connected to the bottom rail?
Tell us that and we can definitively solve your problem.
GMTRacing service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
- Douglas
Taking a break and heading out early to look at this some more. I am convinced you are correct and I have a polarity conflict in the middle of the yard. It's just a matter of finding it.
The service yard drawing has little black and red dots next to the left hand end of each track. They represent the colors of the drops to the buss (also color coded below the layout). I used just two color drops and tried to keep them phased properly so I could trace more easily. Also each buss is color coded differently and numbered for good measure.
I tried to prove the track as I went along but the big issue I came here for showed up after the service yard was put in this year. So yes, first thing to check is what you did last. I did just that. The shorting turnout at the yard throat is one that had no diverging track connected to it prior to this year. Obviously I didn't do myself any favours waiting several years between stints on the layout but work and life got in the way and bottom line is your discretionary time gets cut first. Not an excuse, just an observation.
As I have said before, I do appreciate the help and I do keep the forum on a tab during the day sneaking a peek between office visits and the shop. The diner has been a habit since I first came here years ago and I see some of you in and out of there as well. I am much more comfortable giving chassis setup advice than model railroad advice and DCC frequently has me flummoxed (something to do with a lifetime of dealing with Lucas electrics I think). I'm willing to learn.
Cheers, J.R.
Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered.
But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short.
GMTRacingThe service yard drawing has little black and red dots next to the left hand end of each track. They represent the colors of the drops to the buss (also color coded below the layout). I used just two color drops and tried to keep them phased properly so I could trace more easily. Also each buss is color coded differently and numbered for good measure.
So, the entire service yard is wired in phase. That being the case, if you locate the gaps where I drew gold circles in the diagram on page 2, the layout will work without shorting, regardless of the position of the point rails on the offending turnout.
By the way, that leftmost gold colored (circle) gap on the inner mainline is critical to completely isolating the reversing section. Once that is done, the service yard is no longer a reversing section. The only reversing section is that section of track that Henry designated as A-C.
richhotrain Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered. But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short. Rich
Nevermind. Still confused so I'll bow out.
Doughless richhotrain Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered. But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short. Rich Ok I get it. I didn't catch that the problem had gotten narrowed down to that.
Ok I get it. I didn't catch that the problem had gotten narrowed down to that.
The way that the layout is gapped right now, when the point rails on the offending turnout are thrown to the divergent route, a short occurs due to mismatched polarities where the inner mainline runs along the bottom of the diagram provided by the OP. That's why he needs to add a pair of gaps at the location of the mismatched polarities.
Doughless Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped. Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop.
Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped.
Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop.
richhotrain Doughless Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped. Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop. Again, as it turns out, the upper and lower portions of the service yard are wired the same way. So, the problem is located below the service yard where the inner mainline meets the connection to/from the lower portion of the service yard. The OP needs to add a pair of gaps at that location. Rich
Again, as it turns out, the upper and lower portions of the service yard are wired the same way. So, the problem is located below the service yard where the inner mainline meets the connection to/from the lower portion of the service yard. The OP needs to add a pair of gaps at that location.
Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread.
Doughless Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread.
Sure wish we would have recognized the dots earlier.
Good Morning All,
I added gaps as suggested and I think though it shouldn't be that somehow I generated an out of polarity situation with the turnout that shorted out the entire yard. Gapping the divergent route stopped the shorting. I also added all the other gaps suggested so the main is entirely isolated from the lower yard throat. With all the yard tracks powered just on the end, I now get dead spots in the yard depending on how the power routing turnouts are set so more drops are in order though this time I will connect them one at a time and prove each one one at a time. I did while going through the yard turnouts find one where I think the frog tracks were so close they actually touched. Since it was over by the back shop the tracks were frequently unpowered as the intent is to tie up MOW equipment there. switching to power that section of rail generated the short but only when the points directed power there. I've never been an ace at trackwork but i outdid myself this time. As always, slow steady and methodical would have saved the day. After I do the rest of the drops and prove them, I will report back. Thanks again to all. J.R.
J.R., thanks for that update. If you want to hold off for a few hours before adding more feeders, I will post a drawing to illustrate the location and placement of gaps and feeders now that we more fully understand what you have done with gaps and feeders. That way, you can have a more productive, and successful, weekend with your layout.
richhotrain Doughless Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread. Correct. When you think about it, most problems with reversing sections occur either due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. That sure seems to be the case here, pending the OP following up on all of our replies. Sometimes, the problem can be a faulty turnout, a trip setting on the auto-reverser, or a closed gap, but most often it is due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. Rich
Correct. When you think about it, most problems with reversing sections occur either due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. That sure seems to be the case here, pending the OP following up on all of our replies. Sometimes, the problem can be a faulty turnout, a trip setting on the auto-reverser, or a closed gap, but most often it is due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring.
Agreed, that's why my second thought in my first post was asking of the mainline loop gaps were still functioning correctly.
Thanks guys. Normally I fill the gaps with styrene held in with AC then shaped but I haven't gotten that far yet. I will look for further advice later. J.R.
OK, I spent some time reworking the J.R.'s track diagram and extended some of the rails to include more of the mainlines. Here are some thoughts and observations.
~ I placed gold colored circles where the gaps should be, some over your marks and others at different locations.
~ You need to remove the gap at Henry's position A, so that the reversing section along the right side is lengthened by moving the gap further down the line.
~ You need to add a gap on that inner mainline at the bottom to full isolate the lengthened reversing section.
~ Check the marked gap at the entry to the upper portion of the service yard to make sure it is open. I suspect a problem there that permitted the short to carry around to the bottom of the lower mainline.
~ In the service yard, all of the black feeders should be on the top rail, and all of the red feeders should be on the bottom rail.
~ On the upper mainlines, all of the black feeders should be on the top rail, and all of the red feeders should be on the bottom rail. This will result in the opposite effect as the mainlines circle around so that the bottom mainlines will appear to have the red feeders on the top rail and the black feeders on the bottom rail.
By the way, since the service yard will not be a reversing section, you really don't need to gap the entries to the classification yard and the upper portion of the service yard, unless you want each yard to be a separate power district.
I might add that dead spots are more common in yards with power routing turnouts like Peco. Unless you purposely want to kill power to a siding or spur, it makes sense to add feeders to all three ends of every turnout to ensure power at all times, not just when the points are thrown. These actions should result in flawless operation without any shorts.
Good luck!
Thank you Rich. I'll let you all know how it turned out Sunday (looks like I have to work Saturday. J.R.
guys, given that the upper yard and the lower yard are in phase, it shouldn't matter which way the turnout connecting the two yards is thrown, yet is does. The upper yard is in phase with the upper main, no problem, the lower yard is not in phase with the lower main and Rich's solution corrects that, but yet when the two "in phase" yards are connected, it shorts, and it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how things shake out tomorrow.
floridaflyer guys, given that the upper yard and the lower yard are in phase, it shouldn't matter which way the turnout connection the two yards is thrown, yet is does. The upper yard is in phase with the upper main, no problem, the lower yard is not in phase with the lower main and Rich's solution corrects that, but yet when the two "in phase" yards are connected, it shorts, and it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how things shake out tomorrow.
guys, given that the upper yard and the lower yard are in phase, it shouldn't matter which way the turnout connection the two yards is thrown, yet is does. The upper yard is in phase with the upper main, no problem, the lower yard is not in phase with the lower main and Rich's solution corrects that, but yet when the two "in phase" yards are connected, it shorts, and it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how things shake out tomorrow.
According to the OP, the offending turnout in the service yard was shorting out the layout when the points were thrown to the divergent route. My conclusion was that the mismatched polarities on the lower portion of the mainline triggered a short when the divergent route was selected. But, then, I recalled that the service yard was totally isolated, so no short should occur regardless of the route selected on that offending turnout.
So, now I am thinking that one of the gaps, either at the top or bottom of the service yard is not fully open, letting current through. If that is the case, simply adding those gaps where i indicated with the gold colored circles may not end his shorting problem.
In other words, those three gold colored circles at the bottom of the track diagram represent the location of gaps to fully isolate the A-C reversing section. By placing gaps in those locations, the A-C reversing section will not short the layout. That's a certainty.
But, the shorting problem may remain in the service yard because it is already fully gapped and isolated, even though it is not a reversing section. Yet, when the points are thrown on that offending turnout, a dead short occurs when it shouldn't. So, my concern is that there is still an issue inside the service yard.
Am I making sense?
Agree Rich. Maybe there is something with the turnout. If the short persists tomorrow, which I think it will, perhaps he could do the following, have the turnout in the tangent position(no short), then jumper from the + rail on the upper yard to the + rail on the lower yard, do the same with the -. Do not jumper from any part of the turnout, but rather the rails leading to the turnout, this would transfer power between yards and not go thru the turnout. If this does not cause a short then the problem is in, or at, the turnout. If this does cause a short then it's back to square one my friend.
Here is something else to consider. When gaps are placed at the location of the gold colored circles, the result is a lengthened reversing section on the far right in the diagram that is completely isolated from the mainlines as well as from the service yard.
Once those gaps are in place, the service yard is no longer a reversing section. In fact, that gap at the entry point to the upper portion of the service yard (with the arrow pointing upward to it) is no longer needed.
Since the entire service yard is wired in phase (both the upper portion and the lower portion), throwing the point rails to the divergent route should not cause a short, with or without that gap at the top of the service yard.
Rich, I think that the OP wants the yards to be a separate power district so the gaps with the arrow would be necessary to do that.
floridaflyer Rich, I think that the OP wants the yards to be a separate power district so the gaps with the arrow would be necessary to do that.
He must also want the classification yard to be a separate power district since he has gaps there as well.
Don't think it matters, the upper yard is in phase with the upper main. At least that is what the diagram indicates, I think.
My only point is that in the original diagram provided by the OP, the service yard was fully isolated by the gaps at the top and bottom of the yard, along with the gap behind the back shop. And, the entire service yard is wired in phase. So, when that turnout inside the service yard was thrown to the divergent route, no way should there be a dead short.
GMTRacing I have been unable to sort out some odd electric gremlins on my layout. As background, it is medium size with 4 blocks protected by an early PSX 4 and a pair of PSX AR, one for auto reverse, the other to a turntable (unconnected at this time). Operating system is an MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 and an MRC 8 amp booster. Track is Atlas code 100 with PECO Insulfrog turnouts unmodified. The layout has two blocks for a mainline half of which rises to an elevated section while the rest is at surface level. I have two yards side by side one for rolling stock, one for service with a turntable, roundhouse and backshop. I have busses for each section, and that seems to be where the problem arises. I have an unfindable short between the two "mainline" sections. That doesn't seem to make any difference in operations. The issue arose when I finished and hooked up the yards. Either yard is entered from the lower main line from a common throat. There the throat divides into the classification yard and the service yard. The classification side seems ok, but the service yard is giving me fits. All the tracks seem to be wired ok, the gaps are by cuts and insulating joiners both and with the power off, everything is isolated from the rest of the layout. When a locomotive enters the throat, it will stall when it enters the service yard lead. No breaker lights go on but once the whole thing shut off and reset. Sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
I have been unable to sort out some odd electric gremlins on my layout. As background, it is medium size with 4 blocks protected by an early PSX 4 and a pair of PSX AR, one for auto reverse, the other to a turntable (unconnected at this time). Operating system is an MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 and an MRC 8 amp booster. Track is Atlas code 100 with PECO Insulfrog turnouts unmodified.
The layout has two blocks for a mainline half of which rises to an elevated section while the rest is at surface level. I have two yards side by side one for rolling stock, one for service with a turntable, roundhouse and backshop.
I have busses for each section, and that seems to be where the problem arises. I have an unfindable short between the two "mainline" sections. That doesn't seem to make any difference in operations. The issue arose when I finished and hooked up the yards.
Either yard is entered from the lower main line from a common throat. There the throat divides into the classification yard and the service yard. The classification side seems ok, but the service yard is giving me fits. All the tracks seem to be wired ok, the gaps are by cuts and insulating joiners both and with the power off, everything is isolated from the rest of the layout.
When a locomotive enters the throat, it will stall when it enters the service yard lead. No breaker lights go on but once the whole thing shut off and reset. Sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
Extending the reversing section and installing gaps on the inner mainline should eliminate any short when the service yard is entered from the bottom. But, if a locomotive enters the service yard from the top, those gaps will not resolve a short in the service yard. Something else is going on there.
I did not get as far as i wanted as I spent most of the weekend dealing with a flare up of bursitis in my knee. This required a lot of time spent with the knee elevated and iced as per Drs orders.
To recap, the dead loco issue from the initial post was the wheel shorting across the Peco turnout. I have ground and filled the offending turnout and a few more from the same batch of medium radius insulfrog turnouts. The main lines operate correctly.
With the turnout on the yard throat fixed, I can run into the classification yard without issues.
I wasn't obviously able to spend a lot of time under the layout but I did add the gaps and drops as advised. A short still exists in the area of the turnout in the middle of the service yard. I have isolated the area by gapping it all around, i.e. at the frog of the turnout, at the back shop, and between the tracks out of the backshop and the first three tracks of the lower service yard. The 3 lower service yard tracks I have added to the extended reversing section and it has no issues. Next work will be to check the section of the track where the short occurs. All the gaps seem proper and I can insert a piece of plastic through them into the road bed. I will retrace the drops again as I still feel I have a phase reversal somewhere. The track is now gapped to the right of the black circle in the middle of the yard, at the gold circle by the back shop and on the diagonal going up to the track from the back shop. CUL, J.R.
A few comments and observations about these latest modifications.
1. It is not at all surprising that the service yard is still shorting out because, as has been mentioned before, there is no obvious reason for a short to occur based upon the track diagram. So, a fix is impossible without determining a cause.
2. You really didn't need to extend the reversing section by including the three lower service yard tracks, but at least it further isolates the problem to the upper portion of the service yard.
With the addition of those extra gaps, the upper portion of the service yard now looks like this.
So, the problem is somewhere between the divergent end of that circled turnout and the gap at the top right end of the service yard (where the red colored track connects to the purple colored track). There are two diagonal tracks and four straight tracks in that gapped and isolated section of the service yard.
It could be a bad turnout, crossed feeder wires, or a bus problem. Too bad that some knowledgeable guy can't pay you a visit, crawl under the layout and find the problem in a manner of minutes.
Can you swap out that offending turnout and replace it with a known good one? If a short still occurs, the only thing left is a wiring problem.
One last thing. For some reason, I am still wondering about that gap marked "Check this gap to be sure it is open". That gap wouldn't even be necessary except for the fact that you want to treat the service yard as a separate power district. If I were there, I would check the polarities on either side of that gap. The polarities should match based upon the diagram. What electronic board are you using to control the service yard as a power district, a PSX or a PSX-AR?
I believe the OP has a electrofrog Peco power routing turnout. If that is the case. the turnout wiring requires some wire modification and gaps are necessary on the frog rails. Google "Pico turnout wiring" and the last diagram will show what I believe the OP has, and the steps to modify the turnout.
floridaflyer I believe the OP has electrofrog Peco power routing turnouts.
I believe the OP has electrofrog Peco power routing turnouts.
If it is indeed an insulfrog, I am at a loss to explain what is going on. The wiring in both yards is correct, in phase, and your fix with the expanded reversing section will correct the out of phase condition at the junction of the lower yard and the lower main.
I guess my next move would be to isolate, or remove, the turnout and jumper between the the rails of both yards, red to red, black to black, and see if that power connection still produces a short. If not than there is something with the turnout connection. If it still shorts then wiring is screwed up somewhere.,
That's pretty much the only explanation for the position of the turnout to matter. Insulfrogs are not power routing, so it shouldn't matter which way the points are thrown. Electrofrogs are, so it WILL matter which way the points are thrown.
It's easy to tell just by looking which it is, just look at the frog area.
The turnouts are indeed Insulfrogs. Insulfrogs are in fact power routing with the head of the frog in plastic and the rest in metal the rails at the point are very close together with just a sliver of plastic between them. I did find one a while ago where the point rails off the frog were shorted together. I plan on isolating the turnouts one at a time until I find the problem.
I see now that PECO is offering something called a Uni-Frog. They are not what I have nor are they electrofrogs. Pretty sure I mentioned that previously. J.R.
The open side frog rail on insulfrogs is dead, not electrically connected to anything, so it can;t short. On an Electrofrog, both frog rails have the same polarity which is why you need to gap them to prevent a short. AN Insulfrog can have power applied to the frog end without any gaps, just ike an Atlas turnout. Electrofrog, this is a no no. But pretty sure the Peco Code 83 Insulfrogs were never power routing. The Code 100 may have been, newer ones are not supposed to be either.
Unifrog looks like an Insulfrog but that plastic point of the frog is metal and has a lead running from it which can be powered. Depending on how you cut the jumpers on the bottom, it will behave either like an Insulfrog on an Electrofrog.
I am using only Electrofrog, unless they get switched to Unifrog by the time I start buying turnouts. Why? Because then there is always power, there are no dead areas, and no issues needing to put some nail polish on the point of the frog to keep wheels from bridging the gap and causing a short. Unifrog used as Electrofrog will also be this way, no issues with continuous power for DCC.
I have a fair number of Peco Code 83 Insulfrogs, and they are power routing. I don't have any Peco Code 100 Insulfrogs, but my understanding is that they are also power routing.
True, the plastic frogs on the Insulfrogs cannot be powered, but the frog rails are powered when the point rails are thrown against the stock rails. However, as Randy says, no shorts occur because power is not carried through the frogs as is the case with Electrofrogs. But, Insulfrogs are power routing.
Thanks guys. Now all i have to do is find out what I messed up. At least it is down to about a square foot area and 4 turnouts. I will leave early (5:00 Drs orders) tonight and try to spend some more time on this. J.R.
I haven't noticed before, but yes, Insulfrogs are power routing. I have many for my new layout. I just experimented by hooking up leads to the tail. The tangent and diverging routs are powered only when the points are thrown respectively.
Well that's certainly interesting since it goes against everything I've seen posted about them. But I don't have any to test with, I only bought a few Electrofrogs to try out because I have no interest in using Insulfrogs.
The only way I can see these working this way is if the ONLY power through the points and closure rail up through the diverging frog rails is through the point rail contacting the stock rail. If at any point, power from the stock rail is applied to the closure rail (like that large mass of metal at the hinge of an Atlas) then the diverging frog rails would always be powered, exactly like an Atlas turnout. So this all seems a bit unreliable to me. As soon as you add a jumper from the closure to the adjacent stock rail, now the diverging rails all always powered, same as Atlas, and the position of the points will not matter.
Randy, I have always understood the Peco Insulfrog to be power routing.
I took a spare Peco Code 83 Insulfrog and connected an 18 volt power pack to the rails at the tail end of the turnout and a 12 volt incandescent bulb to the the rails at the divergent end of the turnout. I set the route to straight through, no light. I threw the point rails to the divergent route, light.
Then, I moved the light to the straight end of the turnout and kept the points on the divergent route, no light. I threw the points to the straight through route, light.
I guess that's why they come sprung from the factory, so the points are held closely to the respective rails.
All things considered, I would have used something else knowing what I know now. I liked the power routing and the spring that holds the mechanism in position when I had just a DC layout. It seems any run around you create with these turnouts creates a loop that makes a short. I think my best plan is Ricks idea of gapping after all the points and adding power after the gaps. the short moved again but it really shouldn't with the yard gapped in the middle and the auto reverse section abutting the yard.
What can I use besides epoxy to try to insulate the top of the point rails. If need be I'll cut them all and fill with epoxy but it seems pretty tedious. At least I feel I'm making progress. J.R.
I give up. This thread should be allowed to die a peaceful death. I thought that this mystery would be solved for sure tonight.
There are only two diagonal tracks and four straight tracks in that gapped and isolated section of the service yard. It'a either a bad turnout, crossed feeder wires, or a bus problem. How hard can that be to solve?
Earlier, I suggested that the offending turnout be swapped out and replaced with a known good turnout. Did you try this? If a short still occurs, the only thing left is a wiring problem. How about checking the polarity of the adjacent track(s)?
I don't understand what steps you are taking to try to resolve the problem. What exactly did you do tonight in terms of troubleshooting? The only thing you said about the problem in your latest post is that "the short moved again". What does that mean?
The way the Insulfrog power routes, they should never create a short unless you actually make a reverse loop. Either the diverging frog rail has the same polarity that an all power turnout like Atlas has, OR it is connected to nothing. This should never cause a short. You should be able to hook feeders right to the diverging frog rails with no problem, same as an Atlas.
You can NOT do this with an Electrofrog, as both diverging frog rails assume the same polarity as the points move, which is completely opposite what happens with an all-power turnout and WILL short if one turnout for a siding is set for the main and the other is set to the siding with no gaps.
Randy, Rich, et all, I agree we should let this die a natural death. I will continue to work using the advice I have been given and again my thanks. J.R.
Having invested half my retired life in this thread, I would like to have feedback from the OP as to how things are going. Don't think he needs any more input but progress reports now and then would be appreciated.
floridaflyer Having invested half my retired life in this thread, I would like to have feedback from the OP as to how things are going. Don't think he needs any more input but progress reports now and then would be appreciated.
Will do
Well between health issues and a looming race deadline I haven't had as much time as I would like. I have been reworking turnouts and proving things one turnout at a time. I did find the fault that has eluded me thanks to Florida Flyer. I isolated the dead short but couldn't find a reason for it so I cut turnout out and pulled it up. The two little feeders under the frog were touching enough to cause a short. I replaced the turnout with a new one I had and - no more short. I owe you all another thank you for sticking through all this. It was systematically implementing your suggestions that gave the result. I am now going through to finish the turnout mods and putting some to the things back together one at a time so I can go back to one power district for the upper main line, one for the lower main plus seperate power districts for each yard and the auto reverse section. Once that is done, on to the turntable. J.R.
Thanks for the feedback. Glad you found the problem