Bingo, thats exactly the way I see it too! i like the idea of the 2 reversing units on each siding, that would help solve the short issues with trains going in and ot of the loop, or at least minimize it.
Ward,
I see two issues in this thread.
One, what is causing the short in your initial track diagram. The short can be eliminated by moving that one set of gaps to the divergent end of the turnout.
Two, how to operate two trains in opposite directions without causing a short. For that, you likely need two reversing sections, each with its own auto-reverser.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain CSX Robert I don't know why people keep telling you to move the gaps, where you have them is fine The reason that the gaps need to be moved is because where he has them now, a dead short is created where the ungapped divergent end of the turnout is joined to the track in the loop. Rich
CSX Robert I don't know why people keep telling you to move the gaps, where you have them is fine
I don't know why people keep telling you to move the gaps, where you have them is fine
The reason that the gaps need to be moved is because where he has them now, a dead short is created where the ungapped divergent end of the turnout is joined to the track in the loop.
The diagram you show doesn't make sense because you show the second turnout isolated from the main, yet with it's polarity matching the main. The turnout would get it's power from the loop and should not cause a short, unless...
What I strongly suspect is happening is he has power routing turnouts wihtout having them properly gapped and powered. If that is the case, then there still is no need to move the gaps for the reverse loop, but you would have to add additional gaps between the two turnouts that are facing each other and additional feeders(from the reverser, not the main bus) to the section of track between those turnouts. There are other solutions, but leaving the reversing gaps where they are only uses one reverser and is the only one that insures you never have more than one train crossing the boundaries at the same time(even the two reverser solution could still have trains crossing both ends of one reversing section at one time).
I really can not be sure what is going on unless WardR answers the list of questions I possed eralier.
WardR...i though by putting them all inside the loop and cutting the gaps after the first turnout that it would be fine, but as the other image shows from the other user the polarity does seem to fall back on itself, i traced my feeder wires and the + on one side goes into the - in that area, at least it appears to..
WardR...It looks to me like I formed another mini reverse loop when the upper siding comes back through that turnout...
WardR...The turnouts in that area are pecos and one atlas, the pecos are electro frogs...
dont the electro frogs come gapped? they pickup thier power from the points and feed the frog that way, im not sure where else i would need to cut gaps.
No, they do not come gapped. An elctrofrog turnout will cause a dead short on the leg of the turnout that it is aligned against if power is being fed from that leg.
Ward, is the turnout where the short occurs a Peco or an Atlas?
CSX Robert The diagram you show doesn't make sense because you show the second turnout isolated from the main, yet with it's polarity matching the main.
The diagram you show doesn't make sense because you show the second turnout isolated from the main, yet with it's polarity matching the main.
The diagram, although abbreviated, makes perfect sense. You are just not reading my comments correctly. It is the track arrangement that Ward drew at the beginning of this thread, and my diagram shows why and where the short is occurring because his gaps are misplaced.
This thread is a mess because the OP is feeding us piecemeal information.
First, he draws a diagram different than that drawn on his previous thread. Then, he fails to answer our questions or follow our advice. Then, he tells us that his turnouts are Pecos, Electrofrogs no less, and thinks that the Electrofrogs are gapped. Which makes me think that, perhaps, he has Insulfrogs. Who knows? Who cares? The only thing that we are getting from the OP is more and more questions without, apparently, doing anything about what we have already told him. Hopeless! Pointless!
WardR I just have to make a decision if i want to deal with trains causing possible shorts or make some serious track modifications to avert this whole thing, although that would be a royal pain. I’m at the point where I want to cut all lower feeders and just attach the loop itself and go from there.
LOL
Oh, like that is gonna work......not.
Do us and yourself a favor. Show us the entire track plan and mark the turnouts as to type (Atlas, Peco Insulfrog, Peco Electrofrog, etc., and don't guess. Otherwise, you are wasting everybody's time even though we are still trying to help you.
Rich, I think I am with Bob on this one. How is the main line power carried thru the gaps? If the turnout in question were an Atlas there should be no short. the power coming thru the autoreverser and up to the original gaps. If the turnout in question is a Peco power routing then the turnout should be gapped and the track between the original gaps and the added gaps at the turnout in question would have to be powered thru the autoreverser. Of course I won't bet the farm on this.
floridaflyer Rich, I think I am with Bob on this one. How is the main line power carried thru the gaps? If the turnout in question were an Atlas there should be no short. the power coming thru the autoreverser and up to the original gaps. If the turnout in question is a Peco power routing then the turnout should be gapped and the track between the original gaps and the added gaps at the turnout in question would have to be powered thru the autoreverser. Of course I won't bet the farm on this.
Forget about what kind of turnout it is and look at my last diagram. It shows the track, blue one rail and red the other rail. Auto-reverser or not, where the OP has placed the gaps, the reverse polarity situation remains, although flipped, when two ungapped rails of different polarities meet.
richhotrain..and my diagram shows why and where the short is occurring because his gaps are misplaced. Rich
Your diagram shows the red/blue phase of the track matching across the gaps at both ends of the reverse loop. The reverse loop phase will swap to match one end or the other, depending on which end the train is passing through. If fed correctly from the reverser, the enitire loop, including the turnout, would swap and the "short" that you show would occur at either one gap or the other(no longer being a short because of the insulated gap).
Rich, why do you show the same polarity to right of the original gaps as you do on the tracks coming into the gaps from the left? I would think the polarity to the right of the gaps would be determined by the autoreverser.
CSX Robert Your diagram shows the red/blue phase of the track matching across the gaps at both ends of the reverse loop. The reverse loop phase will swap to match one end or the other, depending on which end the train is passing through. If fed correctly from the reverser, the enitire loop, including the turnout, would swap and the "short" that you show would occur at either one gap or the other(no longer being a short because of the insulated gap).
The way that it is wired and gapped, a dead short will occur when he powers up the layout.
floridaflyer Rich, why do you show the same polarity to right of the original gaps as you do on the tracks coming into the gaps from the left? I would think the polarity to the right of the gaps would be determined by the autoreverser.
In your diagram where is the second turnout getting it's power? You show it arbitrarily reversed from the rest of the loop. In your second diagram above, moving the gaps wouldn't help because you would still get a short where the gaps were originally.
Which turnout is the "second" turnout?
Let me correct something that I said in my last reply. I didn't mean to say as the loco crosses the gaps. Crossing the gaps would have no effect. The problem is that there is a dead short which must be gapped where I placed the arrows.
I am referring to the turnout iniside the loop as the "second" turnout.
CSX Robert In your diagram where is the second turnout getting it's power?
In your diagram where is the second turnout getting it's power?
I don't know. It is not my thread, and the OP so far has failed to tell us much about his wiring. If you look at the track diagram at the beginning of this thread, he shows the "second turnout" inside the reverse loop so, presumably it is wired to the output side of the auto-reverser. But the gaps are outside the reversing loop, so a reverse polarity situation occurs where the end of the divergent track on that second turnout connects to the next section of track. If left ungapped, a dead short will occur as he powers up the layout. And, in fact, that is exactly what he says is happening.
Rich, how is the incoming power from the left bridging the gaps and continuing on to the point that you show a short. the only way that would occur is if the op wired the section to the right of the gaps with power from the main buss not routed thru the reverser.
The gaps are not outside the loop, the "first" turnout(the one on the left in your diagram) is the one that forms the loop.
I give up.
I am simply trying to replicate the short that the OP shows occurring in his initial diagram. That is what my diagram does, it shows him why he has the short, where the short occurs, and how to resolve it by moving the gaps.
The OP refuses to tell us how he has wired the track inside the gaps that he has created. He only recently mentioned that he is using at least one Electrofrog and, if that is true, we need to know that for certain and which turnout is the Electrofrog. And, of course, you have to question the wisdom of using an Electrofrog in this particular situation.
But, as I say, I give up. I will leave it to others to debate the issue and continue to ask questions that go unanswered. Have fun!
richhotrain floridaflyer Rich, why do you show the same polarity to right of the original gaps as you do on the tracks coming into the gaps from the left? I would think the polarity to the right of the gaps would be determined by the autoreverser. That's the nature of a reverse loop. As the track folds back onto itself, a point of reverse polarity is inevitable. That is why you need to gap that point of reverse polarity, not before it, not after it, but at it. Rich I agree with this. But i believe the point of reverse polarity is at the original gap and the auto reverser would do it's thing and everything would be fine. I believe he has an ungapped electrofrog turnout at the point he is experiencing the short, If he gapped the electrofrog and fed the track between the electrofrog turnout and the original gap with a feeder from the reverser he would be fine. Also agree Ward could be a little more forthcoming with information and answer the questions many have asked,
That's the nature of a reverse loop. As the track folds back onto itself, a point of reverse polarity is inevitable. That is why you need to gap that point of reverse polarity, not before it, not after it, but at it.
FF, you and CSX are presuming that the OP wired the track inside the gaps "correctly". We don't know that.
One explanation for his dead short is that he continued to wire the track below that right hand turnout in the same manner as the mainline track coming into that first turnout from the helix. He probably also wired that second turnout in phase with the single track from the helix. That being the case, a dead short will occur at the divergent end of the second turnout where the polarities will be mismatched. That would explain the short where he shows it occurring. If that second turnout is an Electrofrog, that only exacerbates the problem if left ungapped.
As an excercise suppose we eliminate the turnout in question and replace it with a piece of regular track. (this detached a large part of the sidings but that isn't an issue). with the turnout replaced we have a simple reverse section,( that have sidings that have no effect on the issue). OP says everything passed the gaps is routed thru the reversed With the point of polarity change being at the original gaps and the auto reverser takes care of that. By adding back in the turnout we have a short. ergo a problem with the turnout.
Why am I still following this thread after I professed to give up ? - - - - LOL
FF, I am not following what you just proposed. Can you restate it or draw it out?
richhotrain FF, you and CSX are presuming that the OP wired the track inside the gaps "correctly"...
FF, you and CSX are presuming that the OP wired the track inside the gaps "correctly"...
I am presuming nothing of the sort, in fact, I am quite certain he did not and that is what is causing the short; however, moving the reversing section gaps does not fix the problem(although it may temporarily hide the problem). He needs to add gaps to isolate the electrofrog frogs, and he will probably need to add feeders to power sections of track that will be dead after isolating the frogs, but there is nothing wrong with the location of his reversing section gaps.
richhotrain Why am I still following this thread after I professed to give up ? - - - - LOL FF, I am not following what you just proposed. Can you restate it or draw it out? Rich If the turnout at the point of the short were remove and replaced with a section of track, the the point of polarity switch would be clearer and would be at the gaps, and it would be a regular simple reverse loop, triggering the reverser as the loco returned to the main over the gaps. I just think the Peco is the problem and needs to be gapped. Sure would be nice to hear from the OP. Does make for an interesting thread, although a bit long.Welcome back to the discussion.Didn't think you could stay away with the problem unresolved