richhotrain CSX Robert What a nightmare! If I count correctly, Ward would need to cut 24 gaps, plus all that wiring. Ugh. I cannot help thinking that if he has not already purchased all of those Electrofrogs, he would be a lot better off with Insulfrogs or Atlas turnouts. In that event, he would only need to cut 4 gaps and a lot less wiring. If he has already purchased the Electrofrogs, sell them on eBay and use the proceeds to buy Atlas turnouts which are half the cost of Pecos. He could even run multiple trains in and out of that reversing section by simply extending that outer loop all of the way around and back to the main line feeding into those loops. Rich
CSX Robert
What a nightmare!
If I count correctly, Ward would need to cut 24 gaps, plus all that wiring. Ugh.
I cannot help thinking that if he has not already purchased all of those Electrofrogs, he would be a lot better off with Insulfrogs or Atlas turnouts. In that event, he would only need to cut 4 gaps and a lot less wiring.
If he has already purchased the Electrofrogs, sell them on eBay and use the proceeds to buy Atlas turnouts which are half the cost of Pecos.
He could even run multiple trains in and out of that reversing section by simply extending that outer loop all of the way around and back to the main line feeding into those loops.
Rich
You do not need gaps for turnout numbers 3 and 8, 9 10 11 and 12. The reverse loop wiring only needs to be in place between turnouts 2 and 4 while the rest are normal blocks. You do not need them for the turnouts that go to the dead ends such as 3 and 7 uness you are planning on running switching locos on parallel tracks. lPM me with a copy of the diagram if you would like a track circuit with switches drawn,
Regards from Oz
Trevor www.xdford.digitalzones.com for your interest
If you've done the cuts and added jumpers as shown on the back of the Electrofrog package, then they are electrically the same as a fast Tracks turnouts made according to their instructions.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
fast tracks....
Alton Junction
So here is my diagram. Since you never said which one is the Atlas, I just gapped them all as Electrofrogs, it won't hurt to do the same to the Atlas one. The green gaps are the ends of the reversing section. The green gaps have to be in both rails to completely isolate the reversing section from the main line. All of the other gaps only have to be in the rail adjacent to the frog, the other rail can be left solid. The blue gaps(turnouts 2, 3, and 4) also need to be there because if any one of these turnouts is aligned to a siding it will cause a short. The yellow gaps(turnouts 5 and 6) you might could get away without, but I would not suggest it. To not have them, the turnouts would have to be thrown together(either both to the main line or both to the siding, but never one to each) and you could not have additional feeders between the turnouts.
The red gaps are somewhat optional, but personally I would not go without them. Anywhere I have a red gap, you cannot have feeders beyond that point unless you do have the gap. That causes two issues: the track beyond the gap will be electrically dead when the turnout is thrown to the other leg and, when the turnout is thrown to that leg it's power will be fed through the turnout points(not very reliable).
What I would do is go ahead and cut all of the gaps other than the red ones and get that working and then go back and cut the rest.
thank you, Ill def take another look at that peco, Im not sure if a plastic rail joiner was used there, but i need to check on that, it sounds like it was not. I did use them near the orginal turnout on the left, after the helix and where the orginal gaps are.
WardR...Having a better understanding of reverse loops now, made this nightmare even more complex as I don’t think I could have designed a more headache reverse loop situation if I wanted to...
Actually, as far as reverse loops go, this one is really quite simple: there is only one reversing section, only one entrance at each end of the reversing section, and no concerns about a train longer than the reversing section because it is physically impossible. The problem is NOT the reverse loop, the problem is the ungapped Peco electrofrog turnouts, which will cause problems even without a reverse loop. If I have time, I'll do a diagram showing where you need to gap them.
Good to hear back from you, Ward. Keep us posted on your progress. I know from personal experience that it can be frustrating to have to put up with an unresolved layout issue.
Wow! You folks lost me about a million real miles (the 5,280-feet kind) back. If I had a loop that was this much of a headache to figure out, I would probably fall back on the old reliable "K.I.S.S." principle (Keep It Solvably Simple), and scrap that whole thing for some other solution. I applaud all those who tried to help, and indeed I am sure that most of the suggestions were heartfelt and genuine, not to mention knowledgeable, but I gotta side with the comment about the thread getting way out of hand; although I didn't offer any useable help, I also wouldn't have been too sure it would have any significant effect if I had, and as I read further and further into it, I'm still not sure what happened, and wether or not the problem got solved; this stuff is supposed to be , first and foremost, FUN...right? Keep on railroadin'!
WardR I will go back to basics and try a few things im sure in the end ill get it working.
I will go back to basics and try a few things im sure in the end ill get it working.
richhotrain WardR ok, so that short piece of track you are referring to, doesn't the reverse loop have to be able to hold your longest train in the loop? otherwise you would have part of the train in and out both sides of the loop section? Who are you asking? I think it is me! I am simply saying that if you use one loco, the short length of track should be 2 locos space at least 2 locos - three locos space etc. Regards Trevor
WardR ok, so that short piece of track you are referring to, doesn't the reverse loop have to be able to hold your longest train in the loop? otherwise you would have part of the train in and out both sides of the loop section?
Who are you asking?
I think it is me! I am simply saying that if you use one loco, the short length of track should be 2 locos space at least
2 locos - three locos space etc.
Regards
Trevor
WardRI said it was a peco, to be exact an electro frog...
No, you said all the turnouts in this area are Peco, except for one Atlas, which was followed by a question about whether or not the one where the short occurs was Peco or Atlas. You never answered that question. You also never definitely answered whether or not you have any other gaps besides at the ends of the reversing section, though I guess from your earlier response about not being sure where else you would need to cut gaps it may be safe to assume you don't.
With Electrofrog turnouts, you have to have gaps on the rails coming from the frog if you have power being fed to the rails on that end of the turnout.
Ward, if I have overreacted and offended you, I apologize. That was not my intent. It is not the delay in responding that bothers me. It is the frustration with making suggestions that seem to go unheeded and follow up questions that go unaswered when you do have time to respond. And, I never said that the forums are a waste. I was upset with the lack of management of this thread, such things as not stating the types of turnouts that you have installed, how the wiring inside the reverse loop is handled, etc. All of us want to help you and most of all me. But, we gotta have information from you to help solve your problem. Anyway, please accept my apology because I was not trying to offend you but rather to get needed information.
[quote user="WardR"]Rich, no comment on your remarks... and with an attitude like that guess what I don't want your help!! happy model Roading! ill figure out my issue myself, I just thought I would be able to see if anyone else had better suggestions. your the main reason why these forums are a waste, im trying to give you what information I have, unfortunately I also have a job during the day, so I cant go home and scramble through my entire layout and try everything you suggested along with everything else everyone else suggested! ive given you all the information you've asked for, you seem to be arguing with everyone on here, so I want to thank everyone for your help, I will go back to basics and try a few things im sure in the end ill get it working.
there is nothing connected to the helix side there are gaps at that first switch everything past that is wired to the reverser, i don’t think i could state that any more, there’s no complex wiring here, i wanted to put everything at that first switch to avoid the multiple trains in the loop short scenario, originally I had a gap on the far side of the upper siding and things worked, however as i mentioned in an earlier thread that was not ideal as i had situations where 2 trains hit the gap at the same time.
Its simple, everything on the right side of those gaps i listed is on the reverse loop bus, everything to the left of those gaps is on another bus, which does not short. i also determined that there is a imeediate short and its most likely due to the polarity that crosses back on itself from tat inside sidings , but thats why i posted here cause i was not sure of myself.
Thansk i will check those gaps.. and Im sure in the end ill repair what i have. Thansk for your insight and help!!!!! very much appreciated!
richhotrain Why am I still following this thread after I professed to give up ? - - - - LOL FF, I am not following what you just proposed. Can you restate it or draw it out? Rich If the turnout at the point of the short were remove and replaced with a section of track, the the point of polarity switch would be clearer and would be at the gaps, and it would be a regular simple reverse loop, triggering the reverser as the loco returned to the main over the gaps. I just think the Peco is the problem and needs to be gapped. Sure would be nice to hear from the OP. Does make for an interesting thread, although a bit long.Welcome back to the discussion.Didn't think you could stay away with the problem unresolved
Why am I still following this thread after I professed to give up ? - - - - LOL
FF, I am not following what you just proposed. Can you restate it or draw it out?
richhotrain FF, you and CSX are presuming that the OP wired the track inside the gaps "correctly"...
FF, you and CSX are presuming that the OP wired the track inside the gaps "correctly"...
I am presuming nothing of the sort, in fact, I am quite certain he did not and that is what is causing the short; however, moving the reversing section gaps does not fix the problem(although it may temporarily hide the problem). He needs to add gaps to isolate the electrofrog frogs, and he will probably need to add feeders to power sections of track that will be dead after isolating the frogs, but there is nothing wrong with the location of his reversing section gaps.
As an excercise suppose we eliminate the turnout in question and replace it with a piece of regular track. (this detached a large part of the sidings but that isn't an issue). with the turnout replaced we have a simple reverse section,( that have sidings that have no effect on the issue). OP says everything passed the gaps is routed thru the reversed With the point of polarity change being at the original gaps and the auto reverser takes care of that. By adding back in the turnout we have a short. ergo a problem with the turnout.
FF, you and CSX are presuming that the OP wired the track inside the gaps "correctly". We don't know that.
One explanation for his dead short is that he continued to wire the track below that right hand turnout in the same manner as the mainline track coming into that first turnout from the helix. He probably also wired that second turnout in phase with the single track from the helix. That being the case, a dead short will occur at the divergent end of the second turnout where the polarities will be mismatched. That would explain the short where he shows it occurring. If that second turnout is an Electrofrog, that only exacerbates the problem if left ungapped.
richhotrain floridaflyer Rich, why do you show the same polarity to right of the original gaps as you do on the tracks coming into the gaps from the left? I would think the polarity to the right of the gaps would be determined by the autoreverser. That's the nature of a reverse loop. As the track folds back onto itself, a point of reverse polarity is inevitable. That is why you need to gap that point of reverse polarity, not before it, not after it, but at it. Rich I agree with this. But i believe the point of reverse polarity is at the original gap and the auto reverser would do it's thing and everything would be fine. I believe he has an ungapped electrofrog turnout at the point he is experiencing the short, If he gapped the electrofrog and fed the track between the electrofrog turnout and the original gap with a feeder from the reverser he would be fine. Also agree Ward could be a little more forthcoming with information and answer the questions many have asked,
floridaflyer Rich, why do you show the same polarity to right of the original gaps as you do on the tracks coming into the gaps from the left? I would think the polarity to the right of the gaps would be determined by the autoreverser.
Rich, why do you show the same polarity to right of the original gaps as you do on the tracks coming into the gaps from the left? I would think the polarity to the right of the gaps would be determined by the autoreverser.
That's the nature of a reverse loop. As the track folds back onto itself, a point of reverse polarity is inevitable. That is why you need to gap that point of reverse polarity, not before it, not after it, but at it.