Hello everyone,
I created this section over 2 years ago, it was my first section before i totally understood the reverse loop issues, i have had issue in the past and have tried certain gaps in different areas, the problem is I would like to keep the gaps close near each other , so that i don’t run the risk of 2 trains hitting the gaps at the same time, which was happening, so when i moved the gaps like they are now in the photo, I get short, I’m pretty sure it like a reverse loop within a reverse loop issue, following the + and - it looks like after it goes through the loop it comes back in on itself and shorts where that last turnout is converging with the sidings. i don’t know how I would fix this issue, add another reversing unit, or pull out the track in the back that comes back on the reverse loop return, either way i would like to not have to rip anything out, but i may have no choice. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!! The outside track outside rail is +.
Thanks!!
Image below:
the reverser is an psx-ar and the entire reverse loop and inside sidings are powered by the reverser, the power on the left side of gaps is the only area not in the loop.
just an fyi the top siding that looks cut off ends there, the lower track to the left of the gaps is where the mainline comes in.
If you have both rails gapped at both locations shown, your entire yard area is being reversed. I'd move the upper gap to beyond the turnout that is causing the short, to a location beyond the next turnout where you show a single line at the top of your sketch. There's no need to reverse all the yard tracks like you're presently doing, since they're not really part of the loop.
If you continue getting a short, you have your feeder wires crossed somewhere withiin the yard.
The problem is the track segment covered by the red dot...
Your gaps need to isolate this little section. You can get your power from the upper track or the lower track but not both. Gap both ends of this segment so that the sidings get their power always from the lower segment. The cutoff gets its power from either switch A or switch B but never both.
You have enough room to move an engine, or perhaps an engine with one car across the gap, but no more.
A better solution would be to re track things so that the outer loop would exit to the north main line, but that the inner loop would not, this way a whole train can tie up on the inner loop while the switches are re aligned for loop movement. Switches B and C are removed, and gaps placed as I show them here. The whole train can arrive on the turning loop, and the switches are then aligned for the exit movement and for working the yard.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Hi Ward
If that top left track forms a loop and comes back to the bottom left track then it would have to be gapped. If i'm reading this right. IMHO
Have fun.
Lee
Thanks for your help!! the onlyissue is that top north track is not my main line thats just a dead end siding, the only track coming inand out of the loo would be the bottom (left of the gaps) i though about bringing the upper loop all the way down to that first switch. i can gap things in certain areas , but that runs the risk of shorting out things if 2 trains are in the gapos at the same time. thats why i tried to put the gaps after a turnout, that would never happen as the trains would have to collide for a short to occur. crazy how I have over complicated this, I wish there was a simple fix, i though of adding an addiitonal reversing unit to the inside yard area.
thats how I had the gaps at one point and it seemed to work the issue ran into was that if a train hits the loop sections at the same time i short, That was not favorable as it happened a few times.
him, so what your saying is gap the track in that little section near the red dot, this way that little piece of straight track becomes my reverse loop section? i see you have one red gap in that area , but the other one is all the way down at the bottom, would that need to be down there?
thanks!!!!
Yeah, I was trying to illustrate two things at once and so made a mud pie.
The track with the dot on it is gapped at each end of the segment, but I did not show the gaps.
The gaps I did draw will alow you to bring a train into and through the loop, where it must stop before re entering the main line. The position of the switch determines which way the power enters the loop.
thanbsk for your reply!!!! and help!! the gaps you did draw that will allow a train to enter and leave the loop, will that be automatics, you say i will have to stop? if the switch is thrown open for the rain to leave the loop, it will just run through no? I would say the other option where i gap the small area maybe the best option, trains cant occupy that tohgether or they will collide.
From an electrical standpoint, if you re-draw the diagram and leave out all tracks that dead end, it looks to me like everything is OK with the green gaps as they are.
The possible problem that I see with the turnout that is shorting out is that it may be an electro-frog type or a shinohara type with a live frog. If that is the case, gaps need to be cut on both rails coming from the frog. This would be true if the turnout shorts all the time when thrown in one direction. OR, there could be a wiring problem on either side of the turnout.
If the short occurs only when a train (locomotive) is crossing it, then the problem could be that the rails coming from the frog are too close together and the locomotive wheels are making the short because it is touching both frog rails at the same time. This occurs most on Peco insul-frog turnouts that have plastic frogs. To correct it, you can apply some paint to both rails as they go in to, or are at, the frog.
Both tracks at the green gaps should have both rails gapped. (Four gaps total at this point.) The output of the auto reverser should start feeding power at the right of these gaps before the turnout that shorts. All other tracks inside the loop should also have feeders every three feet or so, also from the output of the auto reverser.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
WardR if the switch is thrown open for the rain to leave the loop, it will just run through no?
No. In the case of this loop you have a single switch which will select enter (say counter clockwise). The train then stops, (put a home signal there if you like),
When you through the switch the train will be able to continue, but if you throw the switch while the train is moving it will suddenly start moving backwards.
Think of that lower lead as and east west track. The train is moving east bound into the loop. when you align the switch for the train to leave the loop it is now heading westbound. You will have to move the reversing switch from eastbound to westbound.
this is the case if i have an auto reversing unit, I have the psx-ar?
In your first question you say you are using a PSX-ar reversing unit. Are you using a DCC system to power your track? Nowhere in your postings do you mention that. You do mention that your track is + and -. The PSX-ar's are for DCC only. I think the best place to put the AR is at the top single track on your diagram If you are using DCC. You do not need to reverse all the stub ended tracks to traverse the loop.
This thread is too long. I just came across it and I am exhausted from trying to read through it.
OK, so you have a PSX-AR hooked up.
Are you running in DCC?
Is the track diagram only part of your layout? Where does that upper track go? What is beyond what you show to the left?
If that upper track is just a dead end siding and if you wired the PSX-AR correctly, then the two sets of gaps you show should be sufficient and no short should occur. Just move that upper set of gaps to the divergent end of that LH turnout where the short is occurring.
How is this all different from yesterday's thread. I am confused.
Rich
Alton Junction
Yes i thought that i was using a dcc system was obvious using the psx ar. Sorry left that out.
WardR Yes i thought that i was using a dcc system was obvious using the psx ar. Sorry left that out.
Yes i am using dcc system with the psx ar, this is a lower level area , the lower track before the gaps goes to a helix and up to other areas. This lower area is just a reverse loop with staging tracks inside, at least that was the purpose. The upper track is a dead end siding, it goes No where. I was thinking my gaps should be fine also, but if you follow the track around from the lower area to the top once the track hits that trouble turnout, the polarity crosses with the dead end sidings, i guess o should draw this all. Out with both rails.
thank you all for your input. I trily appreciate It!
OK, if the upper track dead ends, then here is a simplified track diagram with the gaps correctly place to avoid any shorts.
As I said you do not need to have the yard tracks in the reversing section. Try putting the AR in that single track at the top of your diagram between the switches. I did something similar for a friend and it worked perfectly. You won't be able to have two trains in the reversing section at the same time. But you will be able to use the yard tracks while another train is traversing the loop.
WardRRich, thanks for drawing that up, makes sense, but what happens if two trains enter the loop at different ends? Is there a way to avoid this? The reason i tried to put the gaps where i did was to avoid a short based on the fact that only one train can go through a turnout at a time. If this is the only way than ill have to try and see how to avoid this or modify the track to avoid this all together.
Well, then, lengthen the passing siding and add a second auto-reverser to create a second reversing section. In the following diagram, one set of gaps are colored red and one set of gaps are colored black. In between the red colored gaps is one reversing section, and in between the black colored gaps is the other reversing section.
I don't know why people keep telling you to move the gaps, where you have them is fine and, as you have already mentioned, with them there there is no possibility of crossing both ends of the reversing section at the same time.
Some questions: When do you get the short and why do you show it at the turnout? Is it because you get a short when you throw the turnout, when a loco crosses the turnout, anytime power is on? What kind of tunrouts do you have? Are they power routing? Are both sets of gaps in both rails? Are there any other gaps?
CSX Robert I don't know why people keep telling you to move the gaps, where you have them is fine
I don't know why people keep telling you to move the gaps, where you have them is fine
The reason that the gaps need to be moved is because where he has them now, a dead short is created where the ungapped divergent end of the turnout is joined to the track in the loop.
I wrote a piece about growing a layout with a return loop and a simple "fix" I have a problem getting graphics to show but ttransposing what I have written, the short length of track between A and B is double insulated in the reverse fashion to mine. This might help you and feel free to contact offline should you need clarification
http://www.meltonmrc.org.au/newsletters/issue22-september13.pdf
Hope this helps
Regards from Australia
Trevor www.xdford.digitalzones.com for yor interest
WardRok, so that short piece of track you are referring to, doesn't the reverse loop have to be able to hold your longest train in the loop? otherwise you would have part of the train in and out both sides of the loop section?
Who are you asking?