richhotrain Can you temporarily pull the two crossovers and put a section of main line track in place? Rich
Can you temporarily pull the two crossovers and put a section of main line track in place?
Rich
richhotrain Those turnouts better not be power routing or we are coming to hunt you down. Rich
Those turnouts better not be power routing or we are coming to hunt you down.
Absolutely not - there seems to be one of the 4 that is unlike the others and is causing problems. Pic attached. My guess is that it is an older version of the Atlas or is defective.
If you were yto show up it would be welcome as I could take you out and buy you all a beer as a big thank you for all of your help! :-)
Free beer??? What state do you live in?
You have pretty much convinced me that your gaps are correct and that your wiring is correct. Therefore, this should all work. If you have a faulty turnout, nothing is going to get these mainlines working, so you are pretty much doomed to remove one or more of those turnouts. If you want this layout up and running, I don't see where you have a choice.
Alton Junction
Was in in paper packaging or cardboard and plastic? If you have a rotary tool, dremel or other-wise, you can put a cut-off disc on and cut through the rail of the offending turnout. Just make sure your rolling stock is clear (sparks, other objects. when you go to put it back in just solder one in, being careful to align the rails.
trafficdesign richhotrain Those turnouts better not be power routing or we are coming to hunt you down. Rich Absolutely not - there seems to be one of the 4 that is unlike the others and is causing problems. Pic attached. My guess is that it is an older version of the Atlas or is defective.
richhotrain Free beer??? What state do you live in? Rich
i'm in the great white north!!! Toronto, Canada. Good beer up here, too!!!
OK, with the power to your layout off, you need to conduct an electrical continuity test throughout the reversing section. Which rails are receiving power and which are not? It is beginning to become clear that the polarity is mismatched and not being flipped at gaps #2, see my previous diagram. Without electrical continuity, power is being unevenly distributed on your layout. You are going to have to remove that offending turnout.
Am out now getting the kids but will diagram exactly what's happening as soon as I get home.
Here whats happening when the turnout is set to through. All track gets power.
When the turnout is set to diverge (points in pic are not set to diverge but I am just using it to illustrate) no power gets through to the rails...
Could this be my issue????
All turnouts are Atlas Code 100 #6s with dead frogs. But my understanding is that even with a non-powered frog the power is supposed to 'flow' independent of the ways that the points are thrown??? Is this correct???
Can this be fixed by soldering wires to the rails or do I need a new turnout and could this be the fix to my issues?
I don't know what is wrong with that turnout, but let's take a trip around your layout.
A loco heads east on the north main and crosses the gap at #4, no short, and continues on through the gap at #3, no short, then crosses the gap at #2. A short occurs, as expected, since the polarities are mismatched, but the AR-1 should flip the polarities and avoid a short, but it doesn't do that. I cannot explain that since there is power at that site and a working AR-1.
Now, let's say that before the loco arrived at gap #2, you throw the points on the turnouts to diverge. Without any power on the south main due to the malfunctioning turnout, the loco should stop, but there should be no short because there is no power, no mismatched polarities.
I guess that the only suggestion to be made at this point is to replace the faulty turnout because it is not working. And, then, go from there.
richhotrain I don't know what is wrong with that turnout, but let's take a trip around your layout. Now, let's say that before the loco arrived at gap #2, you throw the points on the turnouts to diverge. Without any power on the south main due to the malfunctioning turnout, the loco should stop, but there should be no short because there is no power, no mismatched polarities.
But remember that the south main had feeders to the AR1 and received power until I disconnected them. It was only then that I 'discovered' the faulty turnout. In addition, the short occured when the power from the AR1 flowed to all rails.
richhotrain I guess that the only suggestion to be made at this point is to replace the faulty turnout because it is not working. And, then, go from there.
I will replace it tomorrow and then we will see...
trafficdesign All turnouts are Atlas Code 100 #6s with dead frogs. But my understanding is that even with a non-powered frog the power is supposed to 'flow' independent of the ways that the points are thrown??? Is this correct??? Can this be fixed by soldering wires to the rails or do I need a new turnout and could this be the fix to my issues?
Power flows across the turnout regardless of the way the point rails are thrown. However, if one or more of the jumpers are loose, broken, or missing, there will not be electrical continuity across the turnout. It is possible to repair a faulty turnout where continuity is lacking, if you are good with a soldering iron.
If this were my layout, I would temporarily remove the two crossovers and add a straight track on each main to test the entire operation of the reversing section.
BMMECNYC Was in in paper packaging or cardboard and plastic?
Was in in paper packaging or cardboard and plastic?
Honestly don't remember. Would it make a difference to the design of the turnout and they way it routed power?
BMMECNYC If you have a rotary tool, dremel or other-wise, you can put a cut-off disc on and cut through the rail of the offending turnout. Just make sure your rolling stock is clear (sparks, other objects. when you go to put it back in just solder one in, being careful to align the rails.
If you have a rotary tool, dremel or other-wise, you can put a cut-off disc on and cut through the rail of the offending turnout. Just make sure your rolling stock is clear (sparks, other objects. when you go to put it back in just solder one in, being careful to align the rails.
Good suggestion. Thanks!
BMMECNYC Would you mind satisfying a curiosity of mine real quick? Could you set your volt meter to 200 range AC volts and touch the leads to the track at the shorting location and tell me what voltage you get? It should read either approximately 14.5V +0/-2 or 32V +1/-1, depending on how your voltmeter interperets the AC voltage, dont worry if it does read around 30V, thats just your voltmeter not understanding the DCC signal in the track.
Would you mind satisfying a curiosity of mine real quick? Could you set your volt meter to 200 range AC volts and touch the leads to the track at the shorting location and tell me what voltage you get? It should read either approximately 14.5V +0/-2 or 32V +1/-1, depending on how your voltmeter interperets the AC voltage, dont worry if it does read around 30V, thats just your voltmeter not understanding the DCC signal in the track.
Happy to try this but not sure I understand where you'd like me to check it. Do I put the probes on either side of the gap on the same rail (red, gap, red) or on opposite rails. (red, blue)?
trafficdesign But remember that the south main had feeders to the AR1 and received power until I disconnected them. It was only then that I 'discovered' the faulty turnout. In addition, the short occured when the power from the AR1 flowed to all rails.
Once again, what I would do would be to temporarily remove the crossovers and replace them with straight track on each main. Put back the feeders on the south main. Then, test the reversing section.
This is crazy. We have an 8-page thread but very little progress.
I am including my track diagram once again. This setup definitely should work.
But, it assumes several conditions.
1. The AR-1 is working correctly. This has been confirmed.
2. The gaps are correctly placed. This has been confirmed.
3. The feeders are appropriately wired. This has been confirmed.
4. There are sufficient feeders to provide electrical continuity across the entire reversing section. This is suspect because every end of every turnout is not wired.
5. The turnouts that form the crossovers are all functioning properly and provide electrical continuity. We now know that at least one turnout is faulty.
The paper packaging is an old style of packaging, the plastic and cardboard is newer.
trafficdesign BMMECNYC Would you mind satisfying a curiosity of mine real quick? Could you set your volt meter to 200 range AC volts and touch the leads to the track at the shorting location and tell me what voltage you get? It should read either approximately 14.5V +0/-2 or 32V +1/-1, depending on how your voltmeter interperets the AC voltage, dont worry if it does read around 30V, thats just your voltmeter not understanding the DCC signal in the track. Happy to try this but not sure I understand where you'd like me to check it. Do I put the probes on either side of the gap on the same rail (red, gap, red) or on opposite rails. (red, blue)?
Track voltage at the point where the short is occuring, with track power on and no locomotive. 1 lead from the voltmeter touching each of the 2 rails. Additionally check the voltage at several points througout the north and south mains with the power on. This may show if you are losing power due to resistance from rail joiners, the rail, etc.
Rich you keep color coding your wires opposite from what was shown in the OP's photo of his AR-1. He has the red rail to the rear (top) on BOTH mains.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Rich you keep color coding your wires opposite from what was shown in the OP's photo of his AR-1. He has the red rail to the rear (top) on BOTH mains. --Randy
Only in the isolated (gapped) reversing sections. The rest of the layout is red outer rail, blue/black inner rail.
richhotrain rrinker Rich you keep color coding your wires opposite from what was shown in the OP's photo of his AR-1. He has the red rail to the rear (top) on BOTH mains. --Randy I am showing it the way that the OP says he has done it, he has confirmed it, and it is the correct way to wire it. What else can I say? Rich
I am showing it the way that the OP says he has done it, he has confirmed it, and it is the correct way to wire it. What else can I say?
The outer rail is fed by red feeder wires, and the inner rail is fed by blue feeder wires. So, at points on the layout, the blue feeder wire appears to be the top wire.
On the other hand, the reversing section has the red feeder wire on the top rail on both mains and the blue feeder wire on the bottom rail on both mains.
On the south main bypass, the blue feeder wire is on the top rail and the red feeder wire is on the bottom rail. The south main bypass is wired just like the south main outside of the reversing section.
I'm beginning to suspect....that what you are calling a short, is not a short, but a loss of power/rail continuity. I see that you are using manual ground throws and you say everthing works, until you throw that switch that is supposed to be defective. I believe the points on that switch are not conducting any power flow, so it is open, not a short. If you fed your power to the point end and relied on rail joiners to carry power, that will happen on a Atlas switch. Set it up again and switch that switch, if it shorts like you say again, hold the points against that rail and see if it works. To eliminate that problem, put feeders past thr frog on both the straight and diverging tracks. I just have this feeling that is what is happening.
Good Luck!
Frank
Frank, I have ben wondering the same thing.
It makes sense because when the loco is headed west bound on the south main and crosses gap #2, the AR-1 should reverse the polarity. On the other hand, if there is no power, the loco should stop, as the OP says it does.
If that is the case, the only question is whether that turnout is faulty, a lack of electrical continuity, or whether there are insufficient feeders.
I think that the next move must come from the OP.
richhotrain If that is the case, the only question is whether that turnout is faulty, a lack of electrical continuity, or whether there are insufficient feeders. I think that the next move must come from the OP. Rich
The OP is now back from the LHS with a new Atlas #6 LH turnout that will be installed tonight. I am also going to do some continuity testing (and perhaps some soldering) to insure that the new Atlas will route power correctly. Fingers crossed!!!!
trafficdesign The OP is now back from the LHS with a new Atlas #6 LH turnout that will be installed tonight. I am also going to do some continuity testing (and perhaps some soldering) to insure that the new Atlas will route power correctly. Fingers crossed!!!!
Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring.
Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it.
I believe You will find that will solve your problem. Put your feeders at the point end and at the rails past the frog. Those turnouts especially the one on the left, with the grommets, lose contact at the stock rail and then rely on the points to carry power, there are also jumpers under the isolated frog, but if the point rails are dead, you will not get power after the frog, unless you have feeders there. I believe that has been Your problem all along. Not a short...but no power.
Take Care!
Eight pages??
It may still make it to nine, on the off chance that we havent solved the problem, which I believe is unlikely. Either its no power and/or that turnout is faulty.
Also note to OP, even though Andy Sperandeo uses them (he puts feeder drops on every single piece of rail), I cannot ever reccommend the use of suitcase connectors (the things that you are using to attach your feeders to your busses). They have a tendancy of breaking/not always cutting through the insulation of both wires, or not making good contact with both wires (this is something else you could check). Personnally I solder and use wirenuts or shrink tubing. This is just my opinion, not something must do or necessarily need to do (your results may vary).
Whatever the outcome tonight, I wish that the OP had taken up my suggestion yesterday to remove the two crossovers and test the two mains to verify that everything else is working according to plan. At least then we would know that the reversing sections are working as designed and that the AR-1 is doing its job. At the moment, we don't know any of that for sure.
And, I might add, we don't really even know if that turnout is faulty or just lacking sufficient feeder wires. Did it need to be replaced? A simple continuity test would have answered that question.
Come to think of it, we don't even know if we have a short or a stall.