Kudos to Traffic Design for sticking with this issue until he got the reversing section working.
I recently suggested that he wire a DPDT switch in place of the AR-1, and that got his locos running through the reversing section in all directions. So, this verified that the gaps and wiring were correct, leaving the AR-1 as the likely culprit. At this point, we cannot say if the AR-1 is faulty or if something else on the layout is interfering with the AR-1's proper performance. But, that's a mystery to be solved at a later point.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Ahh, but it does work ! As expected, no shorts on any of the routes..... Enjoy!! Rich
Ahh, but it does work !
As expected, no shorts on any of the routes.....
Enjoy!!
And now IT DOES!!!!! I'd just like to publicly thank Rich for his tireless patience, helpful diagrams and above-and-beyond support to help this novice through what what an amazing learning experience.
This hobby is in great shape if there are experienced modellers like Rich who exhibit such generousity with their time to help others. Is there an award for this??? There should be!!!
Thank you again to Rich and all the other posters who made this long thread end happily and successfully!
Let the trains roll....
Mark R. Whoa ! Seriously ? Over six months later and this is still an on-going problem ? After six months and the OP still hadn't done any continuity testing or verified whether he had a short or an open ? Man, you guys got patience ! Mark.
Whoa ! Seriously ? Over six months later and this is still an on-going problem ?
After six months and the OP still hadn't done any continuity testing or verified whether he had a short or an open ?
Man, you guys got patience !
Mark.
This is a new issue, Mark. Obviously I wouldn't let this fester for 6 months. All seemed to be well and then it wasn't....
Not sure what went wrong but as I built out the section it stopped working. This is a mystery and I am very appreciative of all the help that I have received. The folks on this board have gone above and beyond in helping me get started in this hobby and I can only hope that when I figure it out I can share my experiences and what I have learned to help the next person figure it out.
I will be back at it in a week and hope to have it resolved then.
Truth be told, Mark, this all appeared to be settled back in January, but then the thread resurfaced six months later when the OP got around to laying track and wiring the reversing section.
None of this should be a problem, however, in that the reversing section is simple to wire and gap. The big mystery here is that the problem is less than obvious since there doesn't seem to be anything wrong. But, there obviously is something wrong.
If I lived in Toronto, I am sure that I could solve this problem in 10 minutes. You are right in that there needs to be a methodical testing process brought to bear on this problem. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication going on here.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Rich,
Now that's what I call Methodical.
Take Care! Richie.
Frank
trafficdesign It didn't work!!!!!! HELP please.... as the lengthy posts above explain I am trying to build a reversing section with an AR1. I am getting a persistent short in one location after building the reversing loop as suggested.
It didn't work!!!!!! HELP please.... as the lengthy posts above explain I am trying to build a reversing section with an AR1. I am getting a persistent short in one location after building the reversing loop as suggested.
I couldn't take it any longer, so this morning I set up a test track on the work bench, and created the reversing section that I designed for the OP back in January.
I placed the gaps exactly as I indicated back in January, and I wired it just like I told the OP to do. The outer rail of the oval has red feeders and the inner rail has blue feeders. I wired the reversing section to an auto-reverser, using just one set of feeders on the south main track between the crossovers.
Then, I ran 5 different routes and videotaped each one. You can view the results as follows:
Route 1 - East bound on north main through gap #4 and 3, returning west bound on south main through gap #2 and 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tbzrb-lDlo&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 2 - East bound on south main through gap #1 and 2, returning west bound on north main through gap #3 and 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTd65mTHXk&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 3 - West bound on the south main bypass outside of the reversing section.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeKXDyLh2V0&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 4 - West bound through the crossovers beginning and finishing on the south main with a brief visit to the north main between the crossovers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-20DaZGq0lU&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 5 - One loco east bound on south main bypass and a second loco west bound on north main.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_vJ3_KDHqM&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
As expected, no shorts on any of the routes. In fact, there could be a number of other routes and, of course, they all perform flawlessly, no shorts. You could have three locos operating simultaneously, one on the north main, one on the south main, and one on the south main bypass. Or two locos on each of the three tracks. The list of possible routes is virtually endless. Too bad that the OP doesn't have the space to add a fourth track, the north main bypass. Four or eight locos running simultaneously on four tracks.
OK, at the risk of extending this thread to a tenth page, I have prepared a pair of track diagrams to demonstrate how the reversing section will work.
I would like to throw down the following challenge. If someone will tell me why this reversing section will not work, I will stop replying to this thread.
The top diagram is how the layout is currently wired. Trace the movement of a loco heading east bound on the north main. As it crosses gap #4, polarities match and the loco proceeds to gap #3, polarities match, and the loco proceeds to gap #2. At gap #2, the polarities do not match, so as the loco crosses the gap, the AR-1 senses the short and flips the polarities to match, as shown in the bottom diagram, and the loco proceeds west bound on the south main to gap #1. At gap #1, the polarities now match, so the loco proceeds across gap #1 and on to the end of the loop.
Now, as the loco returns to gap #4, the polarities are reversed, as shown in the bottom diagram. The AR-1 senses the mismatch (impending short) and flips the polarities to match as shown in the top diagram, and the loco proceeds east bound on the north main. Incidentally, take a look at those crossovers and see how they work as part of the reversing section.
Am taking a week off from the trains but then I will add track feeders to all sides of the turnouts in the reversing section to insure adequate power flows to and from the AR1
The problem is in the execution of the original concept, not the concept itself. A new concept will not correct the underlying problem.
zstripe Trafficdesign, Really can't say, I blame you. Can be frustrating. BUT...You should have taken the time to find out for sure, whether it was a short or a stall. With all the advice given, it should have worked, without a methodical testing of why it didn't, it leaves many unaswered questions that may go on repeating themselves in old ways of doing things.
Trafficdesign,
Really can't say, I blame you. Can be frustrating. BUT...You should have taken the time to find out for sure, whether it was a short or a stall. With all the advice given, it should have worked, without a methodical testing of why it didn't, it leaves many unaswered questions that may go on repeating themselves in old ways of doing things.
Agreed. That would be ideal, however I was getting nowhere and my hope is that a new and fresh approach will solve the problem.
zstripe A suggestion: While you are taking a break, build yourself one of these, so when you start to assemble your trackwork and do Your wiring again you will have it ready. Not hard to build, not expensive. Keep it connected to your track, while installing and wiring, if under layout, when buzzer sounds....you have created a short and you don't have to look at a light or meter. http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2012-03-mar/audible_short_detector Take Care! Frank
A suggestion: While you are taking a break, build yourself one of these, so when you start to assemble your trackwork and do Your wiring again you will have it ready. Not hard to build, not expensive. Keep it connected to your track, while installing and wiring, if under layout, when buzzer sounds....you have created a short and you don't have to look at a light or meter.
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2012-03-mar/audible_short_detector
Take Care!
Great idea and neat device... Useful! Thanks.
rrinker It's already wired in phase, so doing the end loops is easy. It's great and all trying to save $29.95 (retail) for another AR, but this has been going on for how long now which means just a lot of frustration and no train running. Yes I'm sure it can work this way, but it is EASIER to understand if just the end loops are isolated. Which has been my point all along. Days of frustration and aggravation aren't worth it to save less than $30 in my book, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be FUN. Yes, it's a hobby so that means available funding may be tight, but rathe rmy layout up and running for the fractional part of the cost of a new loco than have the new loco but now ay to run it because I'm still troubleshooting electrical problems. --Randy
It's already wired in phase, so doing the end loops is easy.
It's great and all trying to save $29.95 (retail) for another AR, but this has been going on for how long now which means just a lot of frustration and no train running. Yes I'm sure it can work this way, but it is EASIER to understand if just the end loops are isolated. Which has been my point all along. Days of frustration and aggravation aren't worth it to save less than $30 in my book, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be FUN. Yes, it's a hobby so that means available funding may be tight, but rathe rmy layout up and running for the fractional part of the cost of a new loco than have the new loco but now ay to run it because I'm still troubleshooting electrical problems.
--Randy
New Turnout is in and no difference. Still shorts at the same point. Gap #1.
I have decided that I am taking a week off from trains as this as it's just not at all enjoyable anymore. My family is beginning to wonder why I go down to the basement and never come up... It IS supposed to be FUN, right?
After a week away from the trains, I am planning on rewiring the layout and starting from scratch with a new wiring approach. I plan to make the end loops the reversing sections and stick to 'red rear' as Randy suggested all along. Simple and easy is all I want at this point!!!!
Thanks all for your help, patience and suggestions... I owe you one!!! It's time to end this 9-pager (is this a record???). Hopefully after a couple of weeks, a couple of bottles (more than a couple I fear) and a new wiring approach, my next post will be to tell you all that the trains are running!!!!
P.S. Good news is that I learned A LOT about track polarity, wiring protocols and how to use a Multimeter to check continuity (thanks to your help) so it was time well spent... it's just time to stop troubleshooting and time to start running trains.
Added straight track and still get the short at gap #1. Trying turnout next...
trafficdesign BMMECNYC Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring. Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it. Will do as soon as the new turnout is in - assuming that it does not correct the problem.
BMMECNYC Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring. Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it.
Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring.
Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it.
Will do as soon as the new turnout is in - assuming that it does not correct the problem.
That sounds perfect.
trafficdesign richhotrain But, now you have to take it up anyhow. I don't want to see you damage your layout, but if you want to get that reversing section up and running, you have to get to the bottom of the problem. I can still run straight track in place of that one turnout before I replace it if you think that will tell us anything... I just can't remove the other three turnouts without irreversable damage.
richhotrain But, now you have to take it up anyhow. I don't want to see you damage your layout, but if you want to get that reversing section up and running, you have to get to the bottom of the problem.
But, now you have to take it up anyhow. I don't want to see you damage your layout, but if you want to get that reversing section up and running, you have to get to the bottom of the problem.
I can still run straight track in place of that one turnout before I replace it if you think that will tell us anything... I just can't remove the other three turnouts without irreversable damage.
[quote user="trafficdesign"]
[quote user="richhotrain"]
Whatever the outcome tonight, I wish that the OP had taken up my suggestion yesterday to remove the two crossovers and test the two mains to verify that everything else...
Unfortunately that was not possible without causing much damage.
richhotrain Whatever the outcome tonight, I wish that the OP had taken up my suggestion yesterday to remove the two crossovers and test the two mains to verify that everything else...
I can still run straight track in place of that one turnout Before I replace it. I just can't remove the other three turnouts.
Whatever the outcome tonight, I wish that the OP had taken up my suggestion yesterday to remove the two crossovers and test the two mains to verify that everything else is working according to plan. At least then we would know that the reversing sections are working as designed and that the AR-1 is doing its job. At the moment, we don't know any of that for sure.
And, I might add, we don't really even know if that turnout is faulty or just lacking sufficient feeder wires. Did it need to be replaced? A simple continuity test would have answered that question.
Come to think of it, we don't even know if we have a short or a stall.
It may still make it to nine, on the off chance that we havent solved the problem, which I believe is unlikely. Either its no power and/or that turnout is faulty.
Also note to OP, even though Andy Sperandeo uses them (he puts feeder drops on every single piece of rail), I cannot ever reccommend the use of suitcase connectors (the things that you are using to attach your feeders to your busses). They have a tendancy of breaking/not always cutting through the insulation of both wires, or not making good contact with both wires (this is something else you could check). Personnally I solder and use wirenuts or shrink tubing. This is just my opinion, not something must do or necessarily need to do (your results may vary).
I believe You will find that will solve your problem. Put your feeders at the point end and at the rails past the frog. Those turnouts especially the one on the left, with the grommets, lose contact at the stock rail and then rely on the points to carry power, there are also jumpers under the isolated frog, but if the point rails are dead, you will not get power after the frog, unless you have feeders there. I believe that has been Your problem all along. Not a short...but no power.
Eight pages??
trafficdesign The OP is now back from the LHS with a new Atlas #6 LH turnout that will be installed tonight. I am also going to do some continuity testing (and perhaps some soldering) to insure that the new Atlas will route power correctly. Fingers crossed!!!!
The OP is now back from the LHS with a new Atlas #6 LH turnout that will be installed tonight. I am also going to do some continuity testing (and perhaps some soldering) to insure that the new Atlas will route power correctly. Fingers crossed!!!!
richhotrain If that is the case, the only question is whether that turnout is faulty, a lack of electrical continuity, or whether there are insufficient feeders. I think that the next move must come from the OP. Rich
If that is the case, the only question is whether that turnout is faulty, a lack of electrical continuity, or whether there are insufficient feeders.
I think that the next move must come from the OP.
Frank, I have ben wondering the same thing.
It makes sense because when the loco is headed west bound on the south main and crosses gap #2, the AR-1 should reverse the polarity. On the other hand, if there is no power, the loco should stop, as the OP says it does.
I'm beginning to suspect....that what you are calling a short, is not a short, but a loss of power/rail continuity. I see that you are using manual ground throws and you say everthing works, until you throw that switch that is supposed to be defective. I believe the points on that switch are not conducting any power flow, so it is open, not a short. If you fed your power to the point end and relied on rail joiners to carry power, that will happen on a Atlas switch. Set it up again and switch that switch, if it shorts like you say again, hold the points against that rail and see if it works. To eliminate that problem, put feeders past thr frog on both the straight and diverging tracks. I just have this feeling that is what is happening.
Good Luck!
richhotrain rrinker Rich you keep color coding your wires opposite from what was shown in the OP's photo of his AR-1. He has the red rail to the rear (top) on BOTH mains. --Randy I am showing it the way that the OP says he has done it, he has confirmed it, and it is the correct way to wire it. What else can I say? Rich
rrinker Rich you keep color coding your wires opposite from what was shown in the OP's photo of his AR-1. He has the red rail to the rear (top) on BOTH mains. --Randy
Rich you keep color coding your wires opposite from what was shown in the OP's photo of his AR-1. He has the red rail to the rear (top) on BOTH mains.
I am showing it the way that the OP says he has done it, he has confirmed it, and it is the correct way to wire it. What else can I say?
The outer rail is fed by red feeder wires, and the inner rail is fed by blue feeder wires. So, at points on the layout, the blue feeder wire appears to be the top wire.
On the other hand, the reversing section has the red feeder wire on the top rail on both mains and the blue feeder wire on the bottom rail on both mains.
On the south main bypass, the blue feeder wire is on the top rail and the red feeder wire is on the bottom rail. The south main bypass is wired just like the south main outside of the reversing section.