rrinker It's not a holdover. If you have success with a less than train length reverse section, then you are not running loco consists longer than the reverse section, or are not using lighted passenger cars. Unless you cut gaps with laser-guided 1/10000 of an inch precision, they will never be exactly parallel and it will be very unlikely that the distance between the sets of gaps is enough to allow multiple metal wheels to exactly touch all the gaps at the same time. SO in a sense, it does work. But try building a loco consist longer than the reverse section, or jsut have 2 independent locos and try to cross both sets of gaps at the same time. It won't work - it CAN'T work because the reverser would have to set the phase of the reversing section in both directions at the same time. --Randy
It's not a holdover. If you have success with a less than train length reverse section, then you are not running loco consists longer than the reverse section, or are not using lighted passenger cars. Unless you cut gaps with laser-guided 1/10000 of an inch precision, they will never be exactly parallel and it will be very unlikely that the distance between the sets of gaps is enough to allow multiple metal wheels to exactly touch all the gaps at the same time. SO in a sense, it does work. But try building a loco consist longer than the reverse section, or jsut have 2 independent locos and try to cross both sets of gaps at the same time. It won't work - it CAN'T work because the reverser would have to set the phase of the reversing section in both directions at the same time.
--Randy
Wont the OP have the same problem now if 2 trains are running? 1 on south bound, one on nortbound, following the other around the loops? One locomotive exiting, one entering?
He will have a problem if one train is entering while the other is exiting.
That is why I suggested that third track, what the OP calls the South Main Bypass, to at least reduce the possibility of conflicting traffic in and out of the reversing section.
Rich
Alton Junction
What was the objection to putting 2 reversers, 1 at each loop? Given a 24" Radius, that would allow a 9ft reversing section with minimal headache. Granted I do like a challenge. Additionally were are we with the OPs original problem of the dead short? Good news about the about the south main bypass is that the OP now has a passing siding or MOW siding if he goes with the loop reverser idea. However I suspect that we will find the location of the short momentarily when he finishes his test loop.
Theoretically you only need a 3ft piece of track stapled to a 2x4 to test your reverser. Cut it into 3 gapped blocks 1 ft long. the outside 2 sections have opposite polarity ie Blue to right hand rail on 1 section, blue to LH rail on 3rd section. Middle section connected to output of AR-1.
I believe that it was Randy who first suggested two auto-reversers, one in each end loop. It is just another option.
The OP is building a test loop right now to verify operation of the AR-1.
It seems to me that his gaps are appropriately placed and his wiring is correct. So, not sure why it isn't working.
I suspect the AR-1 is either malfunctioning or outright faulty.
It is very likely, I also agree with you on the wirings apparent correctness. I would ask however if there are other feeder drops. Could it be that there is enough power loss through the rail joiners that the AR-1 isnt sensing the polarity mismatch before it becomes shorted or trips CB.
I know nothing about these turnouts that he is using, could it also be that the diverging rails exiting the points are being shorted. I have had this problem with PECO turnouts. The plastic insert does not extend far enought down the middle of the 2 diverging rails and shorts when wide metal wheel treads hit them.
BMMECNYC It is very likely, I also agree with you on the wirings apparent correctness. I would ask however if there are other feeder drops. Could it be that there is enough power loss through the rail joiners that the AR-1 isnt sensing the polarity mismatch before it becomes shorted or trips CB.
I do wonder if there are any misplaced feeders though that might cause the AR-1 to go beserk.
I have to get out of the habbit of editing my posts. Do the rails on the atlas turnouts he is using have power on the diverging end, and are the 2 inside rails (the ones that connect to the frog) on the diverging end close enough that there is a short the AR-1 cannot correct? The op might also check his track work/wiring with a volt meter with a continuity setting to see if there is a dead short somewhere.
One thing about the two auto-reverser issue with one in each end loop.
The only point of reverse polarity is at the site of the two crossovers. So the only reason to turn the two end loops into reversing sections is to be able to wire the rest of the layout in phase. But, then you need two auto-reversers instead of one, seems kind of a waste when one will do.
The main objection to to treating the two crossovers as a reversing section is the possibility of two trains simultaneously entering and exiting the reversing section. So, we came up with the idea of the third track, the so-called bypass, to minimize that possibility and, I might add, to provide some additional operating interest.
BMMECNYC Do the rails on the atlas turnouts he is using have power on the diverging end, and are the 2 inside rails (the ones that connect to the frog) on the diverging end close enough that there is a short the AR-1 cannot correct? The op might also check his track work/wiring with a volt meter with a continuity setting to see if there is a dead short somewhere.
Do the rails on the atlas turnouts he is using have power on the diverging end, and are the 2 inside rails (the ones that connect to the frog) on the diverging end close enough that there is a short the AR-1 cannot correct? The op might also check his track work/wiring with a volt meter with a continuity setting to see if there is a dead short somewhere.
The Atlas Custom Line turnouts have an isolated dead frog, and they are not power routing. So all of the rails are powered at all times. I have tons of Atlas Custom Line turnouts on my layout, and the rails are not close enough for wheel shorts to occur, at least not on the standard RH and LH turnouts.
Good idea on the possibility of a dead short. If any feeders are inadvertently reversed, a dead short can result.
richhotrain BMMECNYC Do the rails on the atlas turnouts he is using have power on the diverging end, and are the 2 inside rails (the ones that connect to the frog) on the diverging end close enough that there is a short the AR-1 cannot correct? The op might also check his track work/wiring with a volt meter with a continuity setting to see if there is a dead short somewhere. The Atlas Custom Line turnouts have an isolated dead frog, and they are not power routing. So all of the rails are powered at all times. I have tons of Atlas Custom Line turnouts on my layout, and the rails are not close enough for wheel shorts to occur, at least not on the standard RH and LH turnouts. Good idea on the possibility of a dead short. If any feeders are inadvertently reversed, a dead short can result. Rich
The part of track after the frog but before the insulated rail joiners should be dead then if I am understanding you correctly. What about on the crossover? Are those rails powered?
Each and every rail on the Atlas Custom Line turnout is powered at all times.
Each crossover is simply two turnouts connected together, so each and every rail is powered.
If I were doing something similar (track plan wise), the only way I would be able to keep the wiring straight is to have the wiring the same starting from the farthest wire, ie the wire farthest is red, the closer one is blue, and have that consistancy everywhere except the loops, which would then revert to left rail/right rail top down/or bottom up color coding and connected to the reverser. This would require a second reverser.
I have to keep things simple because I am a simple minded 3-rail O-guage guy with my NYC stuff and reverser is a word that just arrived inn my model railroading vocabulary.
I hear ya.
I suppose that among experienced users of reversing sections, there are two schools of thought: those who want everthing outside of the reversing section wired the same way and those for whom it doesn't matter as long as the "outer rail" is wired one way and the "inner rail" is wired the other way.
BMMECNYC I have to keep things simple because I am a simple minded 3-rail O-guage guy
I have to keep things simple because I am a simple minded 3-rail O-guage guy
What do you mean as a kid, its sitting in my closet right now, only reason Im running HO scale is I cant fit O72 curves everywhere I need them for my Hudsons and Niagara. Also the live-in girlfriend/fellow model railroader said I couldn't use that much space
LOL
For 45 years, my American Flyer trains were holed up in a cardboard box in the attic until I rescued them and restored them four years ago.
I set up a small AF layout on a 8' x 16' table adjacent to my HO scale layout for a couple of years, but I took it down last year to open up the space.
Hey, where is trafficdesign?
How long does it take to set up a reverse loop anyhow?
The straight piece of track that i described earlier 15min, an physical loop longer. Also he may have discovered that the AR-1 was faulty and went directly to the LHS to get a new one.
richhotrain The OP is building a test loop right now to verify operation of the AR-1. I suspect the AR-1 is either malfunctioning or outright faulty.
Do you have a volt meter with a continuity checker? If so turn off layout power, commince finding shorts. Do you have any other feeders than the ones shown in the picture earlier?
Is the locomotive shorting while touching any part of a turnout? Are you using the standard 202S caboose industries ground throw or a different one?
Check continuity on both same rail and across rails (left/right). Try throwing turnouts (one at a time). Check continuity (short) across rails after each line up modification.
BMMECNYC Is the locomotive shorting while touching any part of a turnout? Are you using the standard 202S caboose industries ground throw or a different one?
Loco shorts on straight track. yes I am using standard caboose industry ground throws.
trafficdesign richhotrain The OP is building a test loop right now to verify operation of the AR-1. I suspect the AR-1 is either malfunctioning or outright faulty. Test complete and AR1 is functioning perfectly. Now what???
That said, at least we know that you have a good AR-1.
BMMECNYC Do you have a volt meter with a continuity checker? If so turn off layout power, commince finding shorts. Do you have any other feeders than the ones shown in the picture earlier?
yep. I have a multimeter with a continuity setting but I've never used it before. I gather that it reads 1.0 and continuity would be a 0.0 which means that it is the same polarity. If I get a 1.9 that is a short... Correct?
Problem is I am not sure where to test or what I am looking for??????
It's already wired in phase, so doing the end loops is easy.
It's great and all trying to save $29.95 (retail) for another AR, but this has been going on for how long now which means just a lot of frustration and no train running. Yes I'm sure it can work this way, but it is EASIER to understand if just the end loops are isolated. Which has been my point all along. Days of frustration and aggravation aren't worth it to save less than $30 in my book, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be FUN. Yes, it's a hobby so that means available funding may be tight, but rathe rmy layout up and running for the fractional part of the cost of a new loco than have the new loco but now ay to run it because I'm still troubleshooting electrical problems.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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I took some time this morning to prepare a diagram of the affected part of your layout, straightening out the right side loop. The black dots represent the feeder wire connections from the output side of the AR-1. The circles represent the rail gaps. I numbered the pairs of gaps, from 1 to 4, moving from left to right on the south main and then moving from right to left on the north main to make it easier to discuss possible trouble points. Can you confirm that this is how you track wiring and gaps are set up?
Randy, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, on the other hand, with a known good AR-1, the gaps appropriately placed, and the wiring apparently correct, something is strangely wrong, in which case, the OP may just be doubling up on his trouble by purchasing a second AR-1 and creating two reverse loops.
At this point, we ought to solve whatever problem is affecting his layout.
True, the thread was started in January, but it has only been 24 hours since the OP brought this problem to our attention.
While Im 100% in Randy's camp on the method of wiring for this, I agree with Rich, we need to fix this, otherwise the problem still exists.
It is possible that he misplaced a gap or misplaced a feeder wire, but if the layout is wired per my latest diagram, it has to work.