Rich,
The North and South Main are still electrically connected through the crossvers.
Andrew
OK, let's try to simplify this a little. Let's talk numbers.
A train will run eastbound on the north main across gaps #4 and continue on through gaps #3 without a short. Correct?
Then, when you turn it around, will it run westbound across gaps #3 and continue on through gaps #4 without a short?
For the moment, just run the loco and forget about the rest of the cars.
Rich
Alton Junction
Train runs in eastbound on the north main and exits westbound on the south main with no shorts.
Train enters south main eastbound and immediately shorts!
richhotrain OK, then follow my suggestion to disconnect the feeders from the south main to see if the train will run in both directions across the north main.
OK, then follow my suggestion to disconnect the feeders from the south main to see if the train will run in both directions across the north main.
Hooking the AR1 back up to the layout. Am going to connect track power in and connect output feeders to North Main reverse section only.
trafficdesign richhotrain By the way, that recent diagram that you drew is not what Randy is suggesting. He envisions two end loops that are gapped and isolated with no crossovers. An AR-1 is placed inside each end loop to form a reverse loop. Then the north and south mains, and the crossovers are wired in phase (i.e., red on top, blue on bottom, on both mains). Rich Unfortunately, that would not work for me as the whole idea was to turn a train from the south main that was going to be exiting the north main and having it exit instead on the south main - in effect changing its direction of travel. Also the idea was to be able to stage trains so that I could choose to have them exit this section on either the north or south mains. Another idea is to simply lock down the direction of travel eastbound (to the right) on the South Main and westbound (to the left) on the North Main and eliminate the hell of reverse loops from my life altogether
richhotrain By the way, that recent diagram that you drew is not what Randy is suggesting. He envisions two end loops that are gapped and isolated with no crossovers. An AR-1 is placed inside each end loop to form a reverse loop. Then the north and south mains, and the crossovers are wired in phase (i.e., red on top, blue on bottom, on both mains). Rich
By the way, that recent diagram that you drew is not what Randy is suggesting. He envisions two end loops that are gapped and isolated with no crossovers. An AR-1 is placed inside each end loop to form a reverse loop. Then the north and south mains, and the crossovers are wired in phase (i.e., red on top, blue on bottom, on both mains).
Unfortunately, that would not work for me as the whole idea was to turn a train from the south main that was going to be exiting the north main and having it exit instead on the south main - in effect changing its direction of travel. Also the idea was to be able to stage trains so that I could choose to have them exit this section on either the north or south mains.
Another idea is to simply lock down the direction of travel eastbound (to the right) on the South Main and westbound (to the left) on the North Main and eliminate the hell of reverse loops from my life altogether
You would still have the crossovers, but just the loops become the reversing section. If you wire the track so that you have red/blue red/blue top to bottom the crossovers cease to be the point at which polarity switches. The Loops are where the change occurs.
Now that that is said I reccommend taking Rich's suggestion and disconnecting the south main electrically from the AR-1 and running a train on the north main as he previously suggested. This will isolate the problem to a specific area.
Troubleshooting can be soul crushing, but when you discover the problem it is very rewarding, and you learn something you didnt know before.
richhotrain Any south main bypass gaps should be removed and any feeder wires from the south main bypass should be connected to the main bus. Have you done that? Rich
Any south main bypass gaps should be removed and any feeder wires from the south main bypass should be connected to the main bus.
Have you done that?
We are closing in on a solution. Take heart. Quit talking model railroad suicide.
Yes the loco is completely off the turnout when the short occurs.
If you are satisfied that the south main bypass is good, then here is the next step to get at the problem.
Disconnect the feeders to the south main from the AR-1. Then run a train across the north main from left to right.
If it makes it through, turn it around by hand and run it back through the north main from right to left.
Does it successfully run through the north main reversing section in both directions?
Is the locomotive completely off the turnout when the shorts occur?
trafficdesign South Main Bypass was never a part of the reversing section and was never connected to the AR1. All power feeds to the south bypass come directly from the main bus and are wired red outside and black inside.
South Main Bypass was never a part of the reversing section and was never connected to the AR1. All power feeds to the south bypass come directly from the main bus and are wired red outside and black inside.
Before you do that, I have a suggestion.
Remove the gaps on the south main bypass and make sure that any feeders on the south main bypass are connected to the main bus, not the output side of the AR-1. The south main bypass should not be part of the reversing section, as I have mentioned before.
richhotrain Can you confirm that this is how you track wiring and gaps are set up? Rich
Can you confirm that this is how you track wiring and gaps are set up?
Confirmed. Wiring diagram is correct.
I am going to scrap this track and start over and go with the end loop option as I just can not troubleshoot this anymore. It is zapping my soul.
Is this what I should be shooting for if I want to make the entire inside of the end loop the reverse loop?????
Re-install your AR-1 and double-triple check your wiring.
Then
start by checking across a set of rails on the same piece of track.
Test the rails on the turnouts. make sure you dont have a short between top and bottom rail of each track. check all possible paths, note where shorts occur and the positions of turnouts when the shorts occur.
If there are no shorts with track power off, you are looking of something with the locomotives shorting across adjacent rails (wide wheel tread will do it on PECO turnouts). Some diesels have metal side frame trucks that overhang just enough to cause a short.
With track power off, place your locomotive at the exact point the short occurs and note everything the wheels touch. Lightly push the locomotive to one side or the other (side to side on the track), check that wheel treads are not touching opposite polarity rail.
Check frogs of turnouts dead (no continuity with anything), on those turnouts that have metal frogs (if any).
Hey, no problem, I'm bored, our club is closed today for a private outing, so I can't play golf.
richhotrain I took some time this morning to prepare a diagram of the affected part of your layout, straightening out the right side loop.
I took some time this morning to prepare a diagram of the affected part of your layout, straightening out the right side loop.
Wow Rich! I am very thankful for the amount of time that you and the rest of the forum is spending helping me. It is appreciated!!!!
richhotrain Can you confirm that this is how you track wiring and gaps are set up?
Yes I believe so but I am going to go downstairs and stare at it one more time to confirm.... hang tight...
trafficdesign BMMECNYC Do you have a volt meter with a continuity checker? If so turn off layout power, commince finding shorts. Do you have any other feeders than the ones shown in the picture earlier? yep. I have a multimeter with a continuity setting but I've never used it before. I gather that it reads 1.0 and continuity would be a 0.0 which means that it is the same polarity. If I get a 1.9 that is a short... Correct? Problem is I am not sure where to test or what I am looking for??????
BMMECNYC Do you have a volt meter with a continuity checker? If so turn off layout power, commince finding shorts. Do you have any other feeders than the ones shown in the picture earlier?
Do you have a volt meter with a continuity checker? If so turn off layout power, commince finding shorts. Do you have any other feeders than the ones shown in the picture earlier?
yep. I have a multimeter with a continuity setting but I've never used it before. I gather that it reads 1.0 and continuity would be a 0.0 which means that it is the same polarity. If I get a 1.9 that is a short... Correct?
Problem is I am not sure where to test or what I am looking for??????
I dont know what brand of multi-meter you have, but the setting you need to use should say OL or 0 when there is no short and some number and possibly a beep when there is (test this by shorting the probes together).
It is possible that he misplaced a gap or misplaced a feeder wire, but if the layout is wired per my latest diagram, it has to work.
While Im 100% in Randy's camp on the method of wiring for this, I agree with Rich, we need to fix this, otherwise the problem still exists.
Randy, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, on the other hand, with a known good AR-1, the gaps appropriately placed, and the wiring apparently correct, something is strangely wrong, in which case, the OP may just be doubling up on his trouble by purchasing a second AR-1 and creating two reverse loops.
At this point, we ought to solve whatever problem is affecting his layout.
True, the thread was started in January, but it has only been 24 hours since the OP brought this problem to our attention.
I took some time this morning to prepare a diagram of the affected part of your layout, straightening out the right side loop. The black dots represent the feeder wire connections from the output side of the AR-1. The circles represent the rail gaps. I numbered the pairs of gaps, from 1 to 4, moving from left to right on the south main and then moving from right to left on the north main to make it easier to discuss possible trouble points. Can you confirm that this is how you track wiring and gaps are set up?
It's already wired in phase, so doing the end loops is easy.
It's great and all trying to save $29.95 (retail) for another AR, but this has been going on for how long now which means just a lot of frustration and no train running. Yes I'm sure it can work this way, but it is EASIER to understand if just the end loops are isolated. Which has been my point all along. Days of frustration and aggravation aren't worth it to save less than $30 in my book, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be FUN. Yes, it's a hobby so that means available funding may be tight, but rathe rmy layout up and running for the fractional part of the cost of a new loco than have the new loco but now ay to run it because I'm still troubleshooting electrical problems.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
trafficdesign richhotrain The OP is building a test loop right now to verify operation of the AR-1. I suspect the AR-1 is either malfunctioning or outright faulty. Test complete and AR1 is functioning perfectly. Now what???
richhotrain The OP is building a test loop right now to verify operation of the AR-1. I suspect the AR-1 is either malfunctioning or outright faulty.
The OP is building a test loop right now to verify operation of the AR-1.
I suspect the AR-1 is either malfunctioning or outright faulty.
That said, at least we know that you have a good AR-1.
BMMECNYC Is the locomotive shorting while touching any part of a turnout? Are you using the standard 202S caboose industries ground throw or a different one?
Is the locomotive shorting while touching any part of a turnout? Are you using the standard 202S caboose industries ground throw or a different one?
Loco shorts on straight track. yes I am using standard caboose industry ground throws.
Check continuity on both same rail and across rails (left/right). Try throwing turnouts (one at a time). Check continuity (short) across rails after each line up modification.