I'm hoping someone can help me with a track wiring problem. I've got my layout at a stage where I can start testing the track plan with some engines. The layout is a 12'x16' wrap-around. I've pulled 14 AGU wire for the bus and have soldered a few 22 AGU feeders to the track (feeders aren't connected to bus just yet -- I've been testing the track using alligator clips to connect my Zephry xtra to the rail/feeders). The problem is after an engine runs for a few minutes, the rail starts to heat up. This happens at random joiners and turnouts? I've tried to research the problem online to no avail.
I recently had some hardware problems with the Zephyr Xtra shutting down after a few minutes of operation and track heating up. I sent it in to Digitrax for repair; they gave it a clean bill of health and sent it back with a new power supply. This seemed to solve the problem for a few weeks, but now my track's heating up again.
I'm hoping it's just a bonehead mistake I'm making and not a problem requiring a new command station. Can anyone point me in the right direction to fix the problem?
Heat is a result of resistance. It isn't your Zephyr Xtra. If the DCS51 wasn't putting out current there would be no heat generated at the track. The trouble is in your joints and lack of feeders. Add those feeders. Solder the joiners. and clean the contact points up on those switches. Most important, connect the feeders to your bus. That will allow the bus to carry the current instead of depending on it passing through high resistance track joiners and rail.
Martin Myers
Good answer Martin!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Yep. Martin is right.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Take it a step at a time: connect those feeders first. If that doesn't solve your problem, then do the joiners. The only joiners I soldered are on curves, and I have no heat or power problems. Of course, I used Walthers/Shinohara joiners on their Code 83 track and turnouts: the joiners are a very snug fit. I also treated each connection with No-Ox before joining.
Dante
Just solder all your joints, that way you can have fewer feeders required. Thats what I do.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Hi again,
Solder in the feeders first, as that is the most likely fix. Soldering the joints on the curves is always an excellent idea, where as soldering tangent track is more of an option (in my opinion of course).
I urge you NOT to minimize feeders - especially if you are using DCC. Having feeders every 4-5 feet, and at least one on every siding is an excellent practice - whether DC or DCC.
To encourage this I have to say....... In my 10 years of monitoring this forum, I have NEVER seen/heard of someone complaining they had too many feeders. However, a shortage of them has been the root of many, many problems.
I think the feeders are one problem, particularly if you're trying to drive a decent-sized layout from a few alligator clips, but I also think you may have a short somewhere. Does the track heat up and the Zephyr sometimes trip when there are no engines on the layout? How about with no rolling stock?
In a normal short, there is a direct, low-resistance path from one side to the other. More current can flow than the system is designed to handle, and the circuit breaker will trip. However, if you don't provide enough feeders, or you depend on rail joiners for power transmission from one section of track to another, the weak connections and long track runs provide a lot of resistance, and this limits the amount of current and prevents the breaker from tripping. But, you are still drawing a lot of current, and that's why the track heats up. Nickel-sliver rail is less conductive than copper wire, which is one reason we use a track bus for efficient power transmission.
We sometimes do something called the "quarter test." With your layout powered up, take an ordinary 25-cent piece and place it right across the track. The circuit breaker should trip, as you've created a dead short. Do this all over your layout, particulary far away from the power source, and make sure that the breaker trips everywhere. If it doesn't, add feeders until it does.
Once you get all your feeders in, if the breaker keeps coming on, you've got either crossed wires or perhaps a reverse loop in your track plan that's not accounted for in the wiring. I hope adding feeders does the job for you, but if not you will have to find that short.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hi once again,
Mr. Beasley brings up some good points. While its likely your problem is from lack of feeders and poor connections, I would not be surprised if there was another factor in the mix.
This is brilliant! I've been looking for a way to heat up the train room. Now it's obvious, all I need to do is replace my rail with Nichrome wire and plug 'er in! Should keep the grease in the old Athearn GP-7/9 from stiffening up right nice. Gonna need a box with more amps than the Tech IV...........Hmmmmm, I've got an old Lincoln welder out back....
Misterbeasly and Mobileman44 have given you good suggestions to follow. I too believe there may be another factor causing a short that the system is unable to detect due to the existing lack of permanent wiring.
First thing I would do is to remove all locos and rolling stock from the layout, check all track for a piece of metal, a screw, a tool or something causing a short across the rails. Power up the track and see if it heats up. Do the quater test as suggested and like it was mentioned before keep adding feeders until the system isnstantly shuts down when shorted out.
I have a 14 ga. buss and feeders every 3 feet approximately, I do not depend on an unsoldered track connector to carry current from one piece of track to the next.
Once wiring is complete test run the layout, that short could be inside a loco, but with new wiring in place the system will instantly trip once a bad loco is placed on the rails.
Good luck and be methodical.
This seems like a scary situation to me - - - rails heating up.
I'm no electrical expert, but the mere lack of feeders causes track to heat up?
Seems like you just wouldn't have adequate power to run your trains if there were insufficient feeders.
I can be accused of too few feeders on my layout, but I have never experienced rails heating up.
There has to be something else going on here.
Rich
Alton Junction
Richhotrain, I agree, that is why I think there must be a short that is going undetected. Why would the short be undetected? due to inadequate wiring. The OP says he is using alligator clips to power the rails temporarily.
And, I agree with you, basementdweller.
The OP would be well advised to read through this entire thread and act accordingly.
I would not be comfortable with rails heating up on my layout.
Sounds like a fire hazard.
I totally, totally, agree, that there is something else,going on, to heat up the rails. And no breaker,tripping??
Cheers,
Frank
How about an update from the OP?
What, if anything, have you found out since we last heard from you?
Besides the issue of insufficient feeder wires and possible shorts somewhere on the layout, I continue to wonder about that repaired DCC command station. What was the problem in the first place, what caused it, and did it in fact get repaired?
richhotrain I continue to wonder about that repaired DCC command station. What was the problem in the first place, what caused it, and did it in fact get repaired?
The symptoms he described are consistent with a short combined with insufficient feeders. I don't think there was anything wrong with the Zephyr at all.
I would be curious to know what an ohm meter would show for resistance if he disconnected the DCC supply and removed all locos?
Over the past few years I have read of a few people who lay track and never do any kind of resistance check in case somewhere down the line, they create a short.
It is very easy to make a short detector with a Radio Shack buzzer and a nine volt battery if he does not have a meter.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
MisterBeasley richhotrain I continue to wonder about that repaired DCC command station. What was the problem in the first place, what caused it, and did it in fact get repaired? The symptoms he described are consistent with a short combined with insufficient feeders. I don't think there was anything wrong with the Zephyr at all.
Still, I continue to wonder.
That was only the OP's second post, so it will be a while. But there is deffinately something going on, I really believe it is not because a lack of feeder's, but That's My Opinion. What I am having a hard time with though, is why, no breakers, or fuses, blowing? Something is drawing a lot of current, to be heating the rail's.
Can't be drawing THAT much current. Or the breaker WOULD trip, or there would be walking O's on the display for overload.
But it doesn;t take that much. 2 amps at 12 volts is 24 watts, that's definitely warm enough to feel hot - those little night light bulbs are like 7 watts and are plenty hot. Yet 2 amps is below the limot of the original Zephyr as well as the Xtra, so the breaker would never trip.
This is why the quarter test is SO important. The quarter test is SETTING the quarter on the rails, not pressing down to get extra good contact. If the breaker doesn;t trip, then a loco could derail and short the track in a way so as not tro trip the breaker. With a typical 5 amp system at the usual 15 volts, you cna get over 70 watts flowing through a 'short' and not trip the breaker - and a 70 watt light bulb will DEFINITELY melt plastic things. The problem is too small a bus or not enough feeders, resulting in enough resistence in the circuit that the current is limited to something less than the booster's trip value. Avoid this at all costs - use the quarter test to make sure things shut down when shorted.
In the OP's case, it could be one crossed feeder somewhere - if the feeder is small enough, it will draw power but not enough to actually trip the breaker. That would be true if the rail joints heated up even with no locos or rolling stock on the track. But if the joints ONLY heat up when trains are running, then it's not enough feeders coupled with joiners that aren't very tight.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks for all of the feedback. At the time of my initial post I did not have any feeders attached -- I had just laid the track and was testing the plan with a single engine powering the rails with my Zephyr xtra via alligator clips. Since then, I've attached about half a dozen feeders (my bus is 14 AWG and my feeders are 22 AWG). I haven't had any overheating problems since then. It appears the major problem was a lack of feeders and rail that was too loosely connected. Since I didn't have any feeders attached yet, crossed feeders aren't the problem, but I do have a couple reversing loops that need to be gapped and conected to an auto reverser.
My current plan is to attach additional feeders as I glue down the track, and I'll definitely use the quarter test as I go. I have planned all along to run feeders every 3 feet or so -- as many of you have noted too many feeders won't cause a problem, but too few may. Since my initial post, I've also stopped powering the track via alligator clips, and instead have started powering the track via my power bus. Incidentally, my layout is currently broken up into 3 major power blocks -- 1) the industrial/switching/intermodal yard, 2) mainline, and 3) tortoise switch machines (planning on 25-30 switches). I'm also planning a short branchline which I plan to power through the mainline block.
As for my Zephyr, I've been planning to upgrade my command station to the Super Chief 5 amp set to provide more power for the yard and engines. Once I confirm the Zephyr is functioning properly I plan to use it on the programming/test track on my work bench.
This seems to make sense to me, but I defintely welcome any additional feedback you folks could offer me at this early stage.
That is correct, if the rails are getting hot with no locos, he has a crossed feeder. If they are getting hot from using a loco then he has a resistance concern. Could be either the feeders or joiners. Enough feeders will over come bad joiners and conversly tight joiners will eliminate the need for many feeders, at least for a while.
Pretty simple to diagnose, disconnect the pack, remove all rollling stock and check for continuity across the rails. If continuity is present, he has crossed feeders. If not, check the resistance of each rail from end to end. If resistance is high he has loose joiners, if rail resistance is low, add feeders.
Jim
I suspect he is trouble shooting his layout or he is a lone wolf and does not show up much. Only 2 post.
Martin is right. A bad connection will get hot. If the rails are getting hot, they could be conducting the heat away from the trouble spot(s). Also do the quarter test to make sure your circuit protection is working, you might have a short that isn't detected by the booster. With light gauge wiring it might be fooled and doesn't respond to a large current draw that is flowing.
First of all, thanks for all of the advice! I've followed various discussions for over a year, but this was my first posting, and I wasn't sure if I was going to get much if any feedback. So thanks!
At the time of my initial posting I hadn't attached any feeders to the bus yet, and so I knew it couldn"t have been a crossed line. I had just finished laying the track and wanted to test an engine on it -- that's where the alligator clips came into play. I also haven't installed any switch machines yet, but that's coming soon... I hope.
Since then I've attached feeders to those sections of track that I have already glued down (14 AWG bus and 22 AWG feeders), and I haven"t experienced any issues with heated rails. My plan all along has been to attach feeders every 3' or so to ensure power throughout the layout. I have also stopped using the alligator clips to power the rails, since the bus is not connected. Incidentally, I have already broken the layout into 3 major power blocks: 1) mainline, 2) yard, and 3) tortoise switch engines (I'm planning on about 25-30). Each power district is routed through its own circuit breaker. I will have a short branchline come in at some point, but I was planning on adding that to the mainline bus. As for the Zephyr, I'm planning to shelve it temporarily -- I've planning to upgrade to the Superchief 5amp system for some time, and now seems a good time. Once I verify its functioning properly I'll move it to my programming/test track.
So it sounds like my next course of action should be to attach feeders as I glue each new section of track in place, and I will definitely run the quarter test as I go.
LION does not have DCC. LION does have Analog Automation (of his own design) which places 15 amps (at 10 volts) on the tracks at all times. It has NEVER heated up. Amps on the tracks are not going to heat things up, DRAWING those amps will, but plenty of feeders take care of that just fine.
LION has gotten some shorts, but sometimes did not draw enough amps to trip the breaker. Meter showed only about 3 amps (dead short through a resistor) which will not impress a 15 amp power supply, so the resistor burned up.
In other words you could have a dead short that is not quite dead. (as if it had a resistor in the circuit) [Your LOCOMOTIVE IS A RESISTOR], and so it does not trip.
Get an automotive tail lamp, put it in series with your layout, and during normal operations it will remain dark, as there is not enough apmerage passing throught the filiment to light it. But if there is a dead short, all of the amperage will pas through the light and it will light up, telling you of the problem, and by the way, eating the energy so that things to not heat up or start tires.
LION will guess that you have a reversing loop, but because it is gapped there is no short, but when the locomotive crosses it, it bridges the gap, causing a short that because of the resistance of the motor does not blow the breakers, but does heat up the environment.
INSPECT YOUR WIRING.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
If you don;t plan to run more than 22 locos at a time, don;t buy a Super Chief, get a Super Empire Builder, DB150 and DT402 throttle, and keep the Zephyr Xtra as the command station. You'll get the 5 amp track power (plus can use the Zephyr Xtra 3 amps for another power district) and still have the dedicated program track and the other features of the Zephyr, for less cost.
That's exactly what I did, my layout it currently too small for the 12 loco capacity of my original Zephyr, let alone more than that, so I picked up a SEB set to get the DB150 plus a DT402 throttle. My Zephyr is under the layout, I haven't used the console on it since I bought a DT400 way back when, the DB150 powers the track, and the Zephyr runs to all my stationary decoders.