richg1998 Removing all wire nuts , connections and applying a compound developed for dissimilar metals would usually take care of the issue. The OP only had to solder joints which some don't care to do but use plenty of feeders. The OP's issue was a short down the line with few feeders. Contact resistance. Not enough heat to melt anything which I was sure of. Track heating up could be misunderstood by some. I use to use silver solder paste. The same solder paste that is used in soldering electronic circuit boards Rich
Removing all wire nuts , connections and applying a compound developed for dissimilar metals would usually take care of the issue. The OP only had to solder joints which some don't care to do but use plenty of feeders.
The OP's issue was a short down the line with few feeders. Contact resistance. Not enough heat to melt anything which I was sure of. Track heating up could be misunderstood by some.
I use to use silver solder paste. The same solder paste that is used in soldering electronic circuit boards
Rich
If I remember correctly, repair of such hazardous connections by using some sort of compound was not a solution recommended or accepted by authorities. Short of replacement of the wire (branch wiring, not service entrance cable), there were/are a couple of recommended connectors that are used to connect a copper wire pigtail to the aluminum wire. The copper pigtail would then be connected to the receptacle, switch, etc. If you might have such a problem, make sure you research thoroughly what is currently available and acceptable to the authorities. Do not attempt any home-made short-cuts!
Dante
Edit/P.S. Another aspect of the problem was that the aluminum wire expanded and contracted excessively; therefore, connections could loosen.
Almost off topic.
Many here not aware of a similar issue that happened in houses where aluminum wire was installed. Where the aluminum wire was spliced to copper wire using wire nuts or outlets, switches, there was corrosion developing. Wire nuts are normal for house installations at many points. Contact resistance. At this point, heat developed and a fair amount of houses burned down. A few amps trying to pass that splice would overheat any wood beams nearby.
I have seen a wall switch panel glowing with a few amps flowing through the spice. Not enough to trip the breaker in the wall panel. Breakers are usually 15 or 20 amps. Same issue with the OP, not enough current to trip the controller but heating up the joints.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Texas Zepher Lead and tin are not good conductors of electricity. If you are going to solder, make certian there is a good electrical contact with a tight joiner to begin with, then the solder's function is to hold that good connection in place not be the connection.
That is one of the best explainatioons regarding soldering. Thanks Texas Zepher.
rrinkerI Do use NEW joiners when I lay each section of track - I have some that have been connected and disconnected many times and they slide on with almost no resistence.
Soldering a loose and sloppy joiner just fills the gaps between the rail and joiner with lead and tin. Lead and tin are not good conductors of electricity. If you are going to solder, make certian there is a good electrical contact with a tight joiner to begin with, then the solder's function is to hold that good connection in place not be the connection.
This has been a very interesting topic. Reading through the posts we can see that the OP had a temporary wiring arrangement. Now he has powered the buss and using feeders his problem is being solved.
To expand on this example:
We all have opinions on how layouts should be wired, how many feeders, and whether or no to solder joints etc etc and we all have different experiences and results. The title of this thread shows what can happen when the "conductors" are inadequate.
I am no electrical wizard at all, but I get the basics. A short circuit only shows as a short if the wiring is adequate, if wiring is inadequate (too small, too long, poor conductor, etc) then that same short shows as resistance (load) which results in heat.
I hope this thread is helpful to any DCC newcomers. Lets not have another debate on stranded or solid wires, please.
My guess would be if the rail isn't so hot it's melting ties, then the trains are OK sitting on it. Of course if it's melting ties and the breaker hasn't tripped, there is a serious problem.
Soo Line fan Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:36 AM I am still trying to come to grips with the notion of heated rails on a DCC layout. Electrical concerns are the #1 request for help I see, and many are by very experienced technicians. Lots of people have a hard time with it. So, what we are saying is that too few feeders can result in heated rails without tripping the booster? Yes, as long as current is less than the breaker or fuse, it will not trip. And current is dependant on load, which is the locomotive (s). Can this only happen with shorts or also on a wiring with correct polarities? A true short will open the breaker, so if the breaker is open, no current can flow. No current flow = no heat. Incorrect polarity will open the breaker, unless a feeder is so small as to act like a resistor. And if thats the case, you really do not have a short. What effect does this have on parked locos on those heated rails? None Rich
I am still trying to come to grips with the notion of heated rails on a DCC layout.
Electrical concerns are the #1 request for help I see, and many are by very experienced technicians. Lots of people have a hard time with it.
So, what we are saying is that too few feeders can result in heated rails without tripping the booster?
Yes, as long as current is less than the breaker or fuse, it will not trip. And current is dependant on load, which is the locomotive (s).
Can this only happen with shorts or also on a wiring with correct polarities?
A true short will open the breaker, so if the breaker is open, no current can flow. No current flow = no heat. Incorrect polarity will open the breaker, unless a feeder is so small as to act like a resistor. And if thats the case, you really do not have a short.
What effect does this have on parked locos on those heated rails?
None
Thanks, Jim.
I asked that last question about parked locos because all of my track is powered at all times as long as my DCC booster is powered up. I know that some people cut off power to loco storage tracks, so I just wondered about the effect of heated rails on dormant locos.
Alton Junction
BroadwayLion rrinker It's where I learned to hate solid wire, pulling the old outlet out of the box, and then trying to push the replacement back in. You will hate it even more if you use stranded wire and a single strand reaches out to touch another, or the metal box. They WANT to do that, you know. Yes stranded is more flexible, but if the wire is not normally subject to stress, solid is far better. ROAR
rrinker It's where I learned to hate solid wire, pulling the old outlet out of the box, and then trying to push the replacement back in.
You will hate it even more if you use stranded wire and a single strand reaches out to touch another, or the metal box. They WANT to do that, you know.
Yes stranded is more flexible, but if the wire is not normally subject to stress, solid is far better.
ROAR
Maybe for house wiring, but I will never use solid for my main power bus. Feeders - yes, but thin solid wire is easy to form and easier to solder to the rail than stranded wire.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Jim
rrinkerIt's where I learned to hate solid wire, pulling the old outlet out of the box, and then trying to push the replacement back in.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
It requires a combination of too few feeders and loose rail joiners. I've never noticed this over two layouts now even though both were initially tested before connecting all of my feeders, and no, I don;t solder my rail joints, just on curves. I Do use NEW joiners when I lay each section of track - I have some that have been connected and disconnected many times and they slide on with almost no resistence. I use those when trial fitting things and cutting flex to length. But when I go to put the next piece of track in place for good, I grab a fresh pair of joiners from the package. - the kind you can barely get on because they are so tight.
The loose fitting joiners form a poor connection that puts some resistence in the line, and if power is drawn from a point past this, the current flowing through this resistence will generate heat.
Have you ever had an outlet in your house where the contacts were worn and plugs fit in loosely? The plug on the appliance you have plugged in there gets warm or hot. Or a light switch that's failing, sometimes they make a siggling sound - and get hot. Same principle. In my previous house, I had to replace nearly every receptacle in the place, they all had at least one of the two outlets so loose that plugs would just fall out. Cheap shoddy work. It's where I learned to hate solid wire, pulling the old outlet out of the box, and then trying to push the replacement back in. Especially on middle of the circuit outlets where there were a total of 4 wires.
If you don;t plan to run more than 22 locos at a time, don;t buy a Super Chief, get a Super Empire Builder, DB150 and DT402 throttle, and keep the Zephyr Xtra as the command station. You'll get the 5 amp track power (plus can use the Zephyr Xtra 3 amps for another power district) and still have the dedicated program track and the other features of the Zephyr, for less cost.
That's exactly what I did, my layout it currently too small for the 12 loco capacity of my original Zephyr, let alone more than that, so I picked up a SEB set to get the DB150 plus a DT402 throttle. My Zephyr is under the layout, I haven't used the console on it since I bought a DT400 way back when, the DB150 powers the track, and the Zephyr runs to all my stationary decoders.
LION does not have DCC. LION does have Analog Automation (of his own design) which places 15 amps (at 10 volts) on the tracks at all times. It has NEVER heated up. Amps on the tracks are not going to heat things up, DRAWING those amps will, but plenty of feeders take care of that just fine.
LION has gotten some shorts, but sometimes did not draw enough amps to trip the breaker. Meter showed only about 3 amps (dead short through a resistor) which will not impress a 15 amp power supply, so the resistor burned up.
In other words you could have a dead short that is not quite dead. (as if it had a resistor in the circuit) [Your LOCOMOTIVE IS A RESISTOR], and so it does not trip.
Get an automotive tail lamp, put it in series with your layout, and during normal operations it will remain dark, as there is not enough apmerage passing throught the filiment to light it. But if there is a dead short, all of the amperage will pas through the light and it will light up, telling you of the problem, and by the way, eating the energy so that things to not heat up or start tires.
LION will guess that you have a reversing loop, but because it is gapped there is no short, but when the locomotive crosses it, it bridges the gap, causing a short that because of the resistance of the motor does not blow the breakers, but does heat up the environment.
INSPECT YOUR WIRING.
First of all, thanks for all of the advice! I've followed various discussions for over a year, but this was my first posting, and I wasn't sure if I was going to get much if any feedback. So thanks!
At the time of my initial posting I hadn't attached any feeders to the bus yet, and so I knew it couldn"t have been a crossed line. I had just finished laying the track and wanted to test an engine on it -- that's where the alligator clips came into play. I also haven't installed any switch machines yet, but that's coming soon... I hope.
Since then I've attached feeders to those sections of track that I have already glued down (14 AWG bus and 22 AWG feeders), and I haven"t experienced any issues with heated rails. My plan all along has been to attach feeders every 3' or so to ensure power throughout the layout. I have also stopped using the alligator clips to power the rails, since the bus is not connected. Incidentally, I have already broken the layout into 3 major power blocks: 1) mainline, 2) yard, and 3) tortoise switch engines (I'm planning on about 25-30). Each power district is routed through its own circuit breaker. I will have a short branchline come in at some point, but I was planning on adding that to the mainline bus. As for the Zephyr, I'm planning to shelve it temporarily -- I've planning to upgrade to the Superchief 5amp system for some time, and now seems a good time. Once I verify its functioning properly I'll move it to my programming/test track.
So it sounds like my next course of action should be to attach feeders as I glue each new section of track in place, and I will definitely run the quarter test as I go.
Martin is right. A bad connection will get hot. If the rails are getting hot, they could be conducting the heat away from the trouble spot(s). Also do the quarter test to make sure your circuit protection is working, you might have a short that isn't detected by the booster. With light gauge wiring it might be fooled and doesn't respond to a large current draw that is flowing.
I suspect he is trouble shooting his layout or he is a lone wolf and does not show up much. Only 2 post.
That is correct, if the rails are getting hot with no locos, he has a crossed feeder. If they are getting hot from using a loco then he has a resistance concern. Could be either the feeders or joiners. Enough feeders will over come bad joiners and conversly tight joiners will eliminate the need for many feeders, at least for a while.
Pretty simple to diagnose, disconnect the pack, remove all rollling stock and check for continuity across the rails. If continuity is present, he has crossed feeders. If not, check the resistance of each rail from end to end. If resistance is high he has loose joiners, if rail resistance is low, add feeders.
Thanks for all of the feedback. At the time of my initial post I did not have any feeders attached -- I had just laid the track and was testing the plan with a single engine powering the rails with my Zephyr xtra via alligator clips. Since then, I've attached about half a dozen feeders (my bus is 14 AWG and my feeders are 22 AWG). I haven't had any overheating problems since then. It appears the major problem was a lack of feeders and rail that was too loosely connected. Since I didn't have any feeders attached yet, crossed feeders aren't the problem, but I do have a couple reversing loops that need to be gapped and conected to an auto reverser.
My current plan is to attach additional feeders as I glue down the track, and I'll definitely use the quarter test as I go. I have planned all along to run feeders every 3 feet or so -- as many of you have noted too many feeders won't cause a problem, but too few may. Since my initial post, I've also stopped powering the track via alligator clips, and instead have started powering the track via my power bus. Incidentally, my layout is currently broken up into 3 major power blocks -- 1) the industrial/switching/intermodal yard, 2) mainline, and 3) tortoise switch machines (planning on 25-30 switches). I'm also planning a short branchline which I plan to power through the mainline block.
As for my Zephyr, I've been planning to upgrade my command station to the Super Chief 5 amp set to provide more power for the yard and engines. Once I confirm the Zephyr is functioning properly I plan to use it on the programming/test track on my work bench.
This seems to make sense to me, but I defintely welcome any additional feedback you folks could offer me at this early stage.
Can't be drawing THAT much current. Or the breaker WOULD trip, or there would be walking O's on the display for overload.
But it doesn;t take that much. 2 amps at 12 volts is 24 watts, that's definitely warm enough to feel hot - those little night light bulbs are like 7 watts and are plenty hot. Yet 2 amps is below the limot of the original Zephyr as well as the Xtra, so the breaker would never trip.
This is why the quarter test is SO important. The quarter test is SETTING the quarter on the rails, not pressing down to get extra good contact. If the breaker doesn;t trip, then a loco could derail and short the track in a way so as not tro trip the breaker. With a typical 5 amp system at the usual 15 volts, you cna get over 70 watts flowing through a 'short' and not trip the breaker - and a 70 watt light bulb will DEFINITELY melt plastic things. The problem is too small a bus or not enough feeders, resulting in enough resistence in the circuit that the current is limited to something less than the booster's trip value. Avoid this at all costs - use the quarter test to make sure things shut down when shorted.
In the OP's case, it could be one crossed feeder somewhere - if the feeder is small enough, it will draw power but not enough to actually trip the breaker. That would be true if the rail joints heated up even with no locos or rolling stock on the track. But if the joints ONLY heat up when trains are running, then it's not enough feeders coupled with joiners that aren't very tight.
That was only the OP's second post, so it will be a while. But there is deffinately something going on, I really believe it is not because a lack of feeder's, but That's My Opinion. What I am having a hard time with though, is why, no breakers, or fuses, blowing? Something is drawing a lot of current, to be heating the rail's.
Cheers,
Frank
MisterBeasley richhotrain I continue to wonder about that repaired DCC command station. What was the problem in the first place, what caused it, and did it in fact get repaired? The symptoms he described are consistent with a short combined with insufficient feeders. I don't think there was anything wrong with the Zephyr at all.
richhotrain I continue to wonder about that repaired DCC command station. What was the problem in the first place, what caused it, and did it in fact get repaired?
The symptoms he described are consistent with a short combined with insufficient feeders. I don't think there was anything wrong with the Zephyr at all.
Still, I continue to wonder.
I would be curious to know what an ohm meter would show for resistance if he disconnected the DCC supply and removed all locos?
Over the past few years I have read of a few people who lay track and never do any kind of resistance check in case somewhere down the line, they create a short.
It is very easy to make a short detector with a Radio Shack buzzer and a nine volt battery if he does not have a meter.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
How about an update from the OP?
What, if anything, have you found out since we last heard from you?
Besides the issue of insufficient feeder wires and possible shorts somewhere on the layout, I continue to wonder about that repaired DCC command station. What was the problem in the first place, what caused it, and did it in fact get repaired?
I totally, totally, agree, that there is something else,going on, to heat up the rails. And no breaker,tripping??
And, I agree with you, basementdweller.
The OP would be well advised to read through this entire thread and act accordingly.
I would not be comfortable with rails heating up on my layout.
Sounds like a fire hazard.
Richhotrain, I agree, that is why I think there must be a short that is going undetected. Why would the short be undetected? due to inadequate wiring. The OP says he is using alligator clips to power the rails temporarily.