let me play the devil's advocate here. your question was WHY should i convert to dcc.
1=you like to fiddle with electronics and constantly wonder why things don't work properly
2=you enjoy buying and installing a bunch of heavy gauge wire.
3=you relish the pain of burning your fingers trying to solder tiny connections.
4=you want your locomotives to pull fewer cars than they did before you lightened them up to install the decoders.
5=you want to tinker and modify lots of switches
6=you enjoy the possiblility of head on collisions like Gomez Adams.
7=you have extra time and money that are not needed for other hobby related things.
8=you relish the possibility of high current draw and faulty wiring starting an under-layout fire.
9=everybody else is doing it.
i wonder how many guys went with it and regretted it later. hopefully very few
seriously, i think DCC is one of those things, like most things, that folks either love, hate, or don't care about at all. i am somewhere between the last two and am too far down the road to change. if you are going to do it, better get a move on before you are too far gone the other way.
there, that should bring some howlers out of the woodpile.
grizlump
cgrubb80 I also want to be part of the future. It scares me to see engines advertised as none DC compatable.
I do have a question, how hard is it to install decoders into Bachman's Thomas the Tank engines? I have to two boys that will want to run their trains.
You would be happy with the Zephyr or the NCE Power Cab. Both are good systems. I personally started with the NCE and moved ot the PHPro with radio controllers. The simple question of which is best will often turn into a small battle of NCE, Digitrax, and sometimes MRC owners touting their systems.
Springfield PA
cudaken \ Speaking of old Athearn's, how old are yours? Before you do a decoder install you will want to see what kind of Amps they stall at. Max amps should be no higher than 1 and .75 would be better. Some of my old ones stall at 2 to 3 amps, a sure way to BBQ a decoder. Most decoders are rate at 1.35 amps with a peak of 2.0 amps.Does not take long at 2.0 to let the smoke out.
\
Speaking of old Athearn's, how old are yours? Before you do a decoder install you will want to see what kind of Amps they stall at. Max amps should be no higher than 1 and .75 would be better. Some of my old ones stall at 2 to 3 amps, a sure way to BBQ a decoder. Most decoders are rate at 1.35 amps with a peak of 2.0 amps.Does not take long at 2.0 to let the smoke out.
I know how to check amps but what do you mean by "stall at"? The engines I have are from the early nines to present. Most are blue box specials. I have been thinking about the Empire Builder as well. I have not looked any other brand at this time.
cgrubb80Can I add on boosters later if I want to run more engines?
Yes you can, but good chances you would not need to. Before I bought my new DCC system, Simon 1966 brought over his Zepher and we ran 6 engines with no problem, 3 where sound.
Reason I did not go with the Zepher was the fact it was just as cumbersome to change control from one engine to another as my Bachmann E-Z Command. With you still having your MRC transformers, you can hook them to the Zepher and control 1 engine each with them. There DC power does not come into play when used with the Zepher.
Far as running DC engines with a DCC system seems like a good idea. But, the Older Athearn engines will Buzz like a PO Wasp!
Good luck and have fun.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
The running of a DC loco works better with some locos than with others. Athearns tend to be noisy because the motors do not have glued-in magnets so they vibrate more. Athearns also tend to not run very fast when operated like this, but as they are fairly robust motors there is little chance of damage unless you leave on parked idle on DCC track for an extended period. Others I have tried don't buzz nearly as badly, and can get up to a pretty decent speed (still slower than they run on a regular DC pack). I've never had one get hot, but I don't leave non-decodered locos sit on the track. It does work, and I don't think it's merely a gimmick. Interesting the ones who usually call it a useless gimmick use a system that doesn't support it...
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
To my understanding, the Digitrax Zephyr is a good starter set, which can be expanded into a larger system due to its LocoNet interface. You can add boosters and hand held throttles as your layout or operation grows. As the Zephyr is quite competitively priced, it is not a bad choice to start into DCC.
cgrubb80I was just reading about the Zepher and would like to know what you think of it. http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php It is my understanding that I can still run DC loco's until I get decoders in all of them, is this true? I have a pretty good MRC power supply. Can I add on boosters later if I want to run more engines? I have read other posts but I just am getting used to the terminology so I may have miss read the answers.
I was just reading about the Zepher and would like to know what you think of it. http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php
It is my understanding that I can still run DC loco's until I get decoders in all of them, is this true? I have a pretty good MRC power supply. Can I add on boosters later if I want to run more engines? I have read other posts but I just am getting used to the terminology so I may have miss read the answers.
The gimmick of running DC locos on a DCC layout is just that, a gimmick! The motors doesn´t sound or feel fine on the wavepulses they use to run a DC loco (the motor can get VERY hot as well).
You can add boosters to all DCC systems, but it is dependent how big a layout you have and/or how much power the engines you run at the same time use.
Good luck.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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I would like to have the turnout control in the future but this is a low priority right now as I don't even have the switch machines yet.
Hamltnblue *** Oddball said in the Dirty Dozen. Don't hit me with them negative waves. Especially with the DCC Stuff.
*** Oddball said in the Dirty Dozen. Don't hit me with them negative waves. Especially with the DCC Stuff.
Without the negative waves in DCC then you would have a large DC offset and things would tend to take off the instant they touch the rails
"bridge is up"
<kaboom>
"no it ain't"
cgrubb80, what I love about DCC is I can have engines setting on a live spur. If I want to move it, I just pull up its address and off she goes. I all so like running more than one train on the same main, I have 2 mains and run 4 trains at the same time a lot.
If you as well would like to run more than one engine at the same time (all DCC units will do it) with little effort look at the Digitrax Super Empire Builder or there Super Chief. The DT series throttle has 2 speed controls knobs. What I do is start the B line engines, then the A line's. Keep active control of one train on each line. Cost for the SEB is around $340 to $370 depend on how much you shop. Plus you have a walk around throttle as well. For the sizes of our layouts that is handy! I was running 2 MRC 9500 power packs at $100.00 each, so the cost was not that bad.
One thing you did not ask, what is the disadvantage of going DCC?
Older engines may draw to much power and you cook a decoder.
If the engine stops working, did you push a wrong button and change a CV? Did the decoder go bad? Or did a motor or gear go bad? If it was a motor or gear it ate the decoder as well. Do you install a new decoder and chances frying another $20.00 decoder?
DC, you don't have to speed match MU engines, just places the faster one in front.
Trouble shooting is much easier with DC.
As far as sound, today you don't have to go DCC to enjoy the full range of sound from sound engines. I have all so found sound to be a little (IMHO a lot) over rated. More than one just sounds like racket to me, HO sound quality is not that great. I am slowly selling of my sound diesel fleet, only sound engines I am keeping are the steamers.
Don't get me wrong, I love DCC and glad I made the jump. Would I do it again knowing what I know now? 75% I would.
If you do go DCC, look at Decoder Pro and a hardware to support it. I have a Digitrax PR 3 and love it.
I agree with Randy that trying to understand the entire wiring scheme of a moderately large, moderately complex layout wired for MZL can seem overwhelming. That's why, when Ed Ravenscroft wrote the articles that explained it, he started with just a simple zone. A forest is overwhelming. One tree isn't too hard to understand. Since the intelligent approach, with anything more complex than a Christmas Tree loop, is to complete the electricals as trackwork is completed, it doesn't seem very complicated. That sets in when the MZL modeler picks up the thick folder of circuit diagrams and parts lists and starts leafing through them...
Note that, while I, personally, am committed to MZL for the present and forseeable future, I DON'T recommend it to modelers who aren't current users. If somebody is comfortable with 'black boxes,' DCC is much more builder-friendly. (Also more expensive, but that's a different can of worms...)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
Thomas requires a bit of work but it can be done: http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Bachmann/Thomas%20The%20Tank%20Limited%202002/Spectrum%20Thomas%20The%20Tank.html
I do have to bring issue witht he idea that oen needs to be some sort of electrical engineer to understand DCC. That might be true if you want to knwo just exactly what goes on inside the decoders and the command station, but there are many more consumers who are NOT engineers than are who happily and successfully operate consumer electronic equipment every bit if not more complex than a DCC system. One does not need to understand the inner workings in order to make effective use of the technology.
I also stand by my statement that the more complex forms of DC cab control, the ones that make it easy to actually run a train without all the toggle flipping of the simpler cab control schemes, are more overwhelming to a non-electrical person than DCC. One pair of wires to the track is not exactly true about DCC, it doesn't work any better with DCC than it did with DC - when your train gets to the furthest point it's going to slow down, if it works at all. But DCC wiring is little more than a series of parallel connections to the track. While each individual section in something like MZL is fairly simple in and of itself, a whole layout's worth is a LOT of wiring. Yes, it's just repeating the same basic circuit over and over again, but I defy a non-electrical type to look at the diagrams for such systems as published in MR and elsewhere and not feel completely overwhelmed. In the sense that treating the DCC decoder and command station as black boxes and just worrying about hooking the system to the track, and hooking the decoder to the loco, the wiring is MUCH simpler. All because there is a bunch of insanely complex things going on inside that little chip on there. But you don't have to know all about that.
Thanks for all the advise. I have read previous post and I am really leaning towards DCC. I am a electronic technician so technology does not scare me. I also want to be part of the future. It scares me to see engines advertised as none DC compatable. I do have a question, how hard is it to install decoders into Bachman's Thomas the Tank engines? I have to two boys that will want to run their trains.
The Op mentioned that the layout started as 4 modules from the local club. Does the club or others use DCC? If so what brand. It would be a good idea to match what they have "when" you decide to make the switch. That way you can use your controller(s) there as well. Most of the negatives wont' affect you assuming that since you have a pretty large layout that you take care of it, and have it wired correctly.
Hi! As you indicated, questions similar to this have popped up before - and while your situation is unique (to you), the previous OPs ended up with a lot of advice that you could consider.
I was a DC guy since the early '60s, and switched concurrant with building a new layout in 2009. I did a LOT of research beforehand, including several books, visits to hobby shops, and a plethora of questions on this Forum and a Yahoo Digitrax Forum. I have a number of Plus & Minus points for converting, and all or none may be important or relevant to you.........
For Conversion:
- You control individual locos/trains, rather than "what's on the track".
- The wiring (to power trackage) isn't a whole lot different from DC, but it can be a lot simpler as you don't have the need for a lot of blocks. You will possibly have the need for a handful of power districts, but that only spreads out the power - and doesn't separate the control.
- The wiring of reverse loops & turntables is amazingly simple, with no controls needed.
- You have access to some wonderful sound systems located in individual locos.
- You have access to full remote control of turnouts and signals.
Against Conversion:
- It can be a costly venture, depending on layout size, complexity, & number of locos. I've put $2k into mine (11x15 two level HO with decoders for over 20 locos). Of course you dont' have to install decoders all at once, and can do that as time/money permits.
- DCC is especially unhappy with dirty track and poor wiring. Of course a DC layout has the same situation, but is typically not as sensitive.
- DCC wiring can be very simple, but it can get fairly complex depending on a lot of variables.
- Older locos can be difficult for the "average" modeler to convert to DCC. Conversion ranges from really simple to fairly difficult. I evaluated all my locos last year, and sold those that had a difficult conversion process that I did not want to attempt.
What System to Get:
There are about 5 major players in the business, with - in my opinion - Digitrax and NCE the choice of many. That is not to say they are best or the others are worse. They do offer a lot of choices and have an excellent reputation, and their availability is excellent. I chose Digitrax, but could have easily have chosen NCE. Actually, my system is Digitrax and my decoders are NCE.
Like others have said, conversion is a personal matter and may or may not be the way to go for you. I will say this, however, DCC is the "wave of the future", and while DC is not going away (?), more and more improvements and "bells & whistles" are added to DCC all the time.
Hey, for what its worth......
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Let's start with cost. If you have to buy two more power supplies, you might as well get DCC now. The price won't be that different. You can find a Zephyr or NCE ProCAB for $130-150.
If you convert all your engines at once, the cost for decoders will be around $12 per unit, providing you go 10 at a time. Eventually you may want to go sound, so figure between $70-110 for each engine you upgrad0 to sound.
The thing is how many of your engines do you actually run regularly, and when you do, do they run well? You may only realistically want to convert half of them--so total cost, 10 for $120.
Now, DCC is way cool. You can operate like a railroad without having to think about it. You want to run two trains together, no problem. Want to add helpers, no problem. Want idle a big steamer on a siding while a switcher adds a cut of cars and a new cabin. No problem.
Want to get really crazy and run three trains around your layout and adjust the speed of each to keep them from catching up or falling behind, no problem.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
As a lone operator on a small layout, you could operate your layout with DC. It gets quite a bit more involved, and more expensive, if you wish to operate two trains independently and concurrently. You would need to isolate the tracks so that one train gets power from source A, and the other from source B. As you probably know, on a monolithic system, once you crack the throttle and provide voltage, all engines will get that voltage unless you isolate them. Even more irritating, unless the model has a reversing switch built in, even turning an engine 180 degrees doesn't solve your problem of the two engines wanting to chase each other. In that respect, DCC is somewhat simpler to set up initially, although the up-front cost is about 40-60% higher...and more if you want sound capabilities. For example, if you had a single DC power pack that cost you $50 in 1989, you would possibly require as little as $130 for a basic DCC system in today's dollars, but you'd have to shop...and maybe win an auction. You don't need a different or upgraded DCC system if you also wanted sound decoders and speakers in your engines, but the engines themselves would cost darned near double what a decent DC engine is these days.
If you have power problems in DC due to insufficient feeder wires, the same issue will crop up in DCC. So, wiring the layout can be simple or more involved, depending on the size and complexity. For your purposes, though, it will probably need only three or four pairs of 22 gauge feeders and your controller...plus a decoder in each engine.
For me, the beauty of DCC is that you can have a parked steamer making sounds all by itself, and a second can nudge up to it and couple to it for double-heading without doing anything more than turning your throttle knob. In DC, you can't do that unless you have the couplers over a gap in the rails and the parked engine not getting any voltage. DCC systems provide full and constant voltage to the rails continuously. The decoders meter out the voltages to the lights, amplifier, and motor as you command.
-Crandell
I was reading some of my past post and again forgot to mention that I am running HO scale. I never really remember to say that. I like the idea of running both DCC and DC. The reason I want to change is the options like sound and lights that DCC offers. It also seems like more and more newer stuff is designed for DCC. What about price? What I am I looking at for a starter set?
This layout will be run by just me. I like the idea of running the yard and the mainlines at the same time. I really look forward to the book when it comes so I can read more about it.
Waall, eff'n ya convert to that newfangled DCC stuff you'll be different from Me. You might see that as an advantage.
Of course, if you aren't modeling Japan and its railroads, you're already different enough from me for most purposes.
Chuck (Wiseacre modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The big advantage to DCC is that you can have two or more operators or engineers, each with their own trains, running on the same section of track, and each train is able to be controlled by only that engineer. Also realize that train wrecks are very probable if the engineers are not paying attention to the track in front of them.
So taking that into consideration, the decision becomes, is that what YOU want to do on your model railroad? If not, it may be worth waiting until you build your next layout.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I'm a born-again model railroader and a DCC evangelist. I pulled my old trains out of a 40-year slumber, and asked myself some of the same questions you did. But, there were other answers I already had, so I'll start with the questions that go with them:
What scale is your layout? N-scale engines can have decoders added to them, but it's a lot harder. Most HO engines are reasonably easy, although some require significant effort.
How do you operate? Are you a lone wolf guy, or do you have a crew? Some DCC systems are easier to equip with extra throttles than others. Are you happy to operate from a single base station, or do you like walk-around throttles? How do you feel about tethered (wired) throttles vs. radio throttles that don't tie you to a plug and jack?
How much do you love your engines? This was the hardest part for me. Realistically, though, my Eisenhower-era locomotives were not worth the effort of bringing them up to modern standards. Only one (out of about 10) made the transition to DCC. But, if your engines run well, there's no reason you can't add decoders.
I love the freedom of DCC, particularly on a small layout. With DC, you always have to be concious of where the blocks begin and end. That problem goes away with DCC, greatly simplifying how trains are run.
Someone once said, "With DC, you run the track. With DCC, you run the trains." I just love running the trains.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Here's one reason to switch. In this video it shows 2 trains running around the layout at different speeds. The lights and sound can be controled as well. These 2 were being controlled by the same controller. All of the turnouts are also controlled from the same controller with a couple of button pushes. The video is a little jerky but watchable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QubOJ9-Ca4A
As far as converting you can use a double pole double throw switch and hook both the DCC and DC power source while you are in the process of converting your loco's over time. If you want to run DCC simply throw the switch over and visa versa for DC. For most layouts there is nothing to do wiring wise since DCC can usually run on the same wiring that was used for DC. Reversing loops are done a little differently if you have any.
You'll wish you did it sooner.
You are asking a series of relative questions. Take advantages...what is an advantage in the hobby? Would its opposite necessarily be a 'disadvantage'?
Your question is, "Should I convert...?" The question can only be answered by you based on a sound understanding of the limitations that each method imposes on your overall finished product as you define it. Another way, if DC restricts or otherwise impedes what you wish to do when operating your layout, then yes, you probably should convert. This is assuming your current path offers no practical and reasonable options. If you can achieve the same thing as what DCC can offer you, and with little or no complexity and additional cost, then I would ask why change at all.
I like the relative simplicity of DCC. Now, the electronics and theory is quite involved, but the wiring and use of the system works well for me. I like to just worry about the alignment of points here and there and otherwise I enjoy playing the various sounds and having engines move about the layout prototypically on the same length of track.
There are DC operators here, some with basic set-ups, some with very sophisticated designs that rival the capabilities of DCC in many ways.
I'll throw a question back at you: What would you see DCC, as you understand it, doing for you that your current path won't?
I know that this post have been posted before but this is my situation. I have stated my layout as a DC layout and thinking about converting over. The layout is 20x9 feet. It has two main lines and two yards. It started out as four modules from a local club.
What advantage would it be for me to make the switch. What system would be best for me? How much of a cost increase would it be for me? I already have one DC power and would need to buy two more. I thought since that I have to make this investment, I should make the switch now. I have about 15 to 20 engines so I just can't go buy all the decodes all at once.
I have just order the book: DCC Project and Applications by Mike Polsgrove. DCC Projects & Applications. Thanks in advance and look forward to hearing about this.