OK, as a DCC "rookie" I can empathize with the "Why should I" question.
I. I dislike the nightmare mass of DC cab wiring and like DCC's simpler and flexible wiring schemes.
2. I get to run the locomotives.......not the cab routing.
3. I enjoy turning features like headlights, backup lights, Mars/Gyra lights on and off at will.
4. For sound units, I'm looking forward to enjoying hearing a brace of diesels idling on the outgoing track of my locomotive shop awaiting assignments.
DCC, for me, is fulfilling the model railroading fantasies that my friends and I had way back in the 70s. The thought of onboard sound in HO locomotives that could be controlled at will seemed to be a fantasy dream back then.
But of course, back in the 1960s a group of techno heads were fantasizing about creating portable phones that worked much like the communicators on the original "Star Trek".
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I believe the original premise of this thread was "why should I?" and as a user of DCC since 1999 and command control before that, my reply is "if you have to ask" then we can't help you. That is a personal choice I believe that you have to make based on your abilities, resources, interest, etc. If you were casting to start a war, you certainly landed one, as the DC vs DCC debate will not end until we all go to radio control/battery power as I have done on my garden railroad. Sure beats the DCC on my HO layout. Oh, I am not going to tell you which brand of DCC I have on my layout, it is a good one, but you weren't asking about best brand, you were asking about two concepts/operating systems.
Like automobiles, no one brand, body style or color will suit everyone, do what you want. If you need help, you will find it here from some experienced people. But we can't make the decision for you, nor should we want to.
Bob
I was a long time holdout to converting to DCC cost wise, but I saw all the operational advantages going way back to the analog systems of the 80s and early 90s a buddy of mine and I even purchased an Onboard system which used radio frequncies broadcast through the rails, which worked pretty good, but did have problems with crosstalk between frequencies. DCC has elliminated those issues. Over those years I had spent $30-$50/engine upgrading the drives to can motors and nickle silver wheels (which in the end made them easy to convert to DCC) to not only make them run better, but also made MUing with Atlas and Kato engines feasable. I was also adding constant lighting units. By that time I had also moved on to walk-around contollers, but still often had to run back to the main panel to flip block toggle switches!
Then came DCC, what revalation! It gave us reliable individual control of each locomotive, built-in constant lighting and a whole slew of lighting effects and no more block toggles! (actually they're still on the control panel, but I haven't flipped one in nearly 5 years now)
It took me an evening to hook up decoders to the first 4 or 5 engines and 15 minutes to hook up the system and I've been running DCC ever since and have never looked back. I really don't know what took me so long to make the change anymore.
I checked out and tried several different systems before I decided on one. I did not buy the same system as my local club and I'm very glad of that decision, I really like my system better and so does everyone that comes over to play. I did buy a throttle of my own for the club system so I don't have to borrow one and you can never have enough throttles at the club anyway.
As to cost, yeah the initial startup cost was about $450, (5 amp system ($300) with 2 extra throttles ($75ea) for a double deck 12x23 layout), plus the first 10 pack of decoders ($11/decoder), which is the only way to go if you have a fleet to convert, you can always go back and upgrade to sound and/or extra functions. I had decided it didn't make any sense to begin with a starter system if I was just going to have to spend more later on to get what I needed and I had the money at the time, (tax return), but you can certainly do it in steps if that's what works for you. The rest of my locos got converted as time and money permitted (about 6 months). The decoders are good quality decoders that retail at $22ea but are marked down to 11-12 bucks ea in 10/packs. I haven't had to replaced any of them in 5 years. They have 4 lighting functions, which means you can have forward and reversing headlights and flashing ditchlights for example.
My main piece of advice is to to do your homework and read, read, read. A good place to start is the DCC primer for beginners at http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm. Then try out any systems you can in your area. Functionallity and layout of the handheld component are important as are the ergonomics (how it feels in your hand and ease of operation). Price should not be at the top of the list, if you have to save up an extra month or two, so be it, it's more important to get what you like and need.
Well that's my 2 cents 4 cents.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
cgrubb80Do I need to worry about polarity on the DCC layout? I have two mainlines and want to run trains in differnent direction in DC mode. I think that I will be ok but want to make sure. I will use just one power supply to run both trains so I can make the switch between DCC and DC easy.
Do I need to worry about polarity on the DCC layout? I have two mainlines and want to run trains in differnent direction in DC mode. I think that I will be ok but want to make sure. I will use just one power supply to run both trains so I can make the switch between DCC and DC easy.
Yes you have to worry about polarity. With DCC (and AC) it's called phase but the principle is the same as DC. Connect one rail or wire directly to the other rail or wire with no load between them, you've got a short circuit. With DCC, all rail is wired to the same phase. The decoder in the loco makes it run in the direction you choose.
I have just started to build an N-scale layout and it is going to be DCC. I have 8 Bachmann Spectrum DC locomotives bought years ago (cca 1990, SD 40-2 and Dash-8) and a couple of newly purchased DCC-equipped locos (Kato SD 70M and Atlas GP 38-2). I am converting 3 of the Bachmann locos to DCC (these are the only ones for which I have Micro-Trains coupler conversion kits), the rest will be kept for spare parts.
I chose Digitrax LocoNet for signaling and control since it is well supported by the JMRI.
Nick
CSX-Robert, the $ 16 you mentioned are just a dream here, nothing goes for less than $ 22 here on the local market and as I said, I have lots of motive power models, the 60 I mentioned are the ones older than 10 years, but there are about another 80 that are younger, so the total cost to convert most of them would easily run in the thousands, as a retiree I can hardly afford that. And while I agree that most likely every model could be converted, my skills won't allow to try on some models out of fear to spoil them in such a way that they could not longer be used in DC as well.
Oh well. This whole thing is about increasing market share anyways
Actually my NCE powercab unit work very well. At an operating session here I can run about 6-8 trains at once with this unit. Most of my locos have been equipped with non-sound decoders with only 10 of them having sound decoders in them. That has more of a deterrent effect on a certain little "Spring" who sometimes will attempt to get on to the layout--one blast of the horn function and ---zzzoooooooooom!!---he's gondie!!
I think it does boil down to whatever works ---for you. There really is no rule that says you must stay either DC OR DCC here---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
tro105462Good Lord I was only kidding,I didn,t mean anything by it.I don,t care if some guys use dc or dcc.It comes down to what works best for them.
Good Lord I was only kidding,I didn,t mean anything by it.I don,t care if some guys use dc or dcc.It comes down to what works best for them.
I know what you're saying. I was yanking Sheldon's chain just to see his reaction. It worked
L&N.....Gone but not forgotten
selector Big words, Frank? It could have been worse....how about antidisestablishmentarianism? Now that's a big word. But effrontery and psychology have the same number of letters, and unintelligible is even longer. Which one of those troubled you? -Crandell
Big words, Frank? It could have been worse....how about antidisestablishmentarianism? Now that's a big word. But effrontery and psychology have the same number of letters, and unintelligible is even longer. Which one of those troubled you?
-Crandell
that ones a piece of cake to pronounce
anyway in my opinion dcc is wellworth the extra $ and the effort but lets keep in mind that there are also some drwbacks to dcc so if youve got the extra time or money to do it i say go for it but if you dont twant to spend the extra time and $ then dont or even just hold off until later
DrilineselectorAs a non-techy, physicist, engineering type, I even had the effrontery to purchase those horribly complicated Digitrax systems with their unintelligible manuals that only a physicist/engineer could decipher. I thought you had a psychology degree. Hence the need to use "big" words that most of us engineers don't know or could never learn to pronounce.
selectorAs a non-techy, physicist, engineering type, I even had the effrontery to purchase those horribly complicated Digitrax systems with their unintelligible manuals that only a physicist/engineer could decipher.
I thought you had a psychology degree. Hence the need to use "big" words that most of us engineers don't know or could never learn to pronounce.
I understood every word he posted. Never been to college. Built a couple of campus buildings, though.
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRAL Does your layout have a signal system? Sheldon DC signal systems are soooooooo 1970's.ishhhhh. It's a well known fact DCC is far superior in every way. So much so, that I don't have the time or room to include the facts in this post.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Does your layout have a signal system? Sheldon
Does your layout have a signal system?
Sheldon
DC signal systems are soooooooo 1970's.ishhhhh.
It's a well known fact DCC is far superior in every way. So much so, that I don't have the time or room to include the facts in this post.
Actually my signal system is more 1950's,ish, and therefore not dependent on any proprietary hardware or software that may find its self unavailable or unsupported. So while it is an old method, it can never be obsolete.
And, as Chuck and I have pointed out over and over, our control system is the same way, not dependent on expensive, proprietary black boxs, but rather designed and built by us from simple, inexpensive universal componants that are easily subsituted.
We understand not everyone is able or interested in doing what we do.
Superior is subjective based on needs, wants, costs, and judgement criteria, just like automobiles.
I'm sure for you DCC is superior, by my measure it is just different, and more expensive.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDoes your layout have a signal system? Sheldon
tro105462 I wonder if all these guys that don,t care for DCC are still using the old style horn hook couplers?
I wonder if all these guys that don,t care for DCC are still using the old style horn hook couplers?
How old are you? I was likely hand laying my own track, building craftsman kits and using Kadee couplers before you were born, and yes, I still use DC, wireless radio throttle DC.
"I wonder if all these guys that don,t care for DCC are still using the old style horn hook couplers?"
no, i am using mantua couplers but i am thinking about upgrading to link and pin.
grizlump
KiwigerdI was considering converting my layout to DCC (lured by the greater freedom this promises) some time ago I have finally dismissed the idea for 2 major reasons: a costs involved and, even more important to me, many of my older N scale locos are just not convertible, at least not for a person with my skill level. I have a friend who is a qualified technician and still he found that a good many models just can't be done.
I'm a;lso an N scaler. My small 7 x 7 layout was converted to DCC 14 years ago. DCC excels on small layouts. To run more than one train on analog, all I did was throw block switches. On a small layout, the blocks are short so you have to be quick to get the toggle set for the next block.
Cost for decoders was a bit prohibitive back in the 90's. At $35 - $50 per loco, only the best runners got a decoder. Most, not all of my old Rivarossi and Arnold stuff just didn't rate a decoder. The ones that did run well enough are now on their second, modern decoders. If I had these small, cheap decoders 14 years ago, all of them would probably be converted. They can be converted, btw.
Cost is definitely a factor. I started with my best runners which also turned out to be the ones I ran most. Converted a couple at a time as funds permitted. Of course, I also had to keep up with new releases. Those got decoders installed right away. Additional cost for a decoder had to be allowed for in the budget for new equipment. I've converted over 100 engines and locos since beginning DCC. Some of the oldest units are getting upgraded to newer, modern, cheaper decoders. Some have fallen from favor and will remain retired or sold off to raise funds for new stuff. That's just the nature of the hobby. Cost is a factor in a DCC decision, but then model railroading itself isn't cheap, but I can't think of any hobbies that are.
EM-1For myself, I don't think I want to spend a lot of time trying to remember a whole lot of individual loco addresses.
Actually, ost of us cheat, and use the number the factories lovingly print on the side. Usually, it's under the cab, also near the headlight (but hard to read being small) and if applicable, usually on the tender as well.
-Morgan
I got my first HO loco during a time when a (at the time) high tech idea to be able to run trains slowly was to cut one of the cross connections in the power supply Selenium Rectifier (I know, what's that?) and bridge it with a SPST switch to switch between full wave and half wave power (AKA Pulse Power). So, I naturally have a fair number of straight DC throttles. Also have a large group of locos with the old open frame power hog motors. Seems to me converting would just cost too much, or would require me to sell off most of my engines (except the few I have that have DC compatible DCC.
On my next layout, I might include a branch with DCC just to say I have it. I am more likely to convert most of my DC supplies to a simple selectable straight or momentum with 2-speed braking capability. Something that's quite easy and inexpensive to build from a single transistor, a couple caps, and a few resistors and slide switches.
DCC intrigues me. Must be my electronics background (28 years as a lab rat). I was once working on setting up the CMRR computer system from MRR for a layout, reworking the serial interfaces to the RS485 standard instead of using the RS232. Much simpler boards, wiring.
If you are relatively just starting out, DCC might be much less costly, proportionately, than conveting a large batch of rolling stock.
Which is better? My call is that it's a matter of personal taste and preference. For myself, I don't think I want to spend a lot of time trying to remember a whole lot of individual loco addresses.
Given what you have posted, I would say to you, go ahead and make the switch now. I'm certainly not a personal perponent of DCC, but with as few locomotives as you have, and given the small layout you have, their's no time like the present. Since I'm strictly DC, I have no idea what you should use for DCC, but I'm sure you will get some good suggestions.
Bruce
Well, I throw my 10 pennies worth in. I run an N scale layout shaped like an L with point to point operation although there is a provision for continuous running as well. I do not really run a mainline but it is an interchange yard with a single track shortline serving some industries. Since the terrain is quite hilly I always run 2 locos in charge of these trains because the pulling capability of most single locos is very limited (5 or 6 40 ft cars only). Double heading is not a problem in DC, even triple operations run smooth.
Also, I have resolved the problem of adding cars to a train that is already head powered and ready for departure, by simply isolating the head end of the departure track and connect it via toggle switch to one of 2 power packs (I use one for the open line and the other for the yard and for the engine servicing facilities). I did that originally for being able to add cabooses but found it very useful for other purposes as well. The same goes for the interchange track,
This arrangement also allows for 2 persons operation, so when a friend joins me one of us is swithing the yard whild the other one operates the local train.
I was considering converting my layout to DCC (lured by the greater freedom this promises) some time ago I have finally dismissed the idea for 2 major reasons: a costs involved and, even more important to me, many of my older N scale locos are just not convertible, at least not for a person with my skill level. I have a friend who is a qualified technician and still he found that a good many models just can't be done. I own about 60 locos that are older than 10 years, some more than 20 years (Rivarossi, Trix and Arnold steamers to name but a few) so for me it is a no-no to do.
So, FWIW my advice for anybody running N scale, unless you use most modern equipment or have a very large size layout, stick with DC.
I see you live in Colorado. I am in Kansas City. if you ever get over this way, I will show you my ATSF in Oklahomal layout, started in 1984 using a system called Dynatrol and converted to DCC in 1999. I have the NCE system with four power boosters installed and I do not have problems with the system every time I turn it on (unlike some naysayers who think DCC is hard to maintain.) I have over 300 diesels with decoders, and I have probably "smoked" a total of 5 decoders over the years, due to my dumb mistake.
The system is hardy, reliable and easy to install and use. The worse problem I have had is on one booster where one of the wires running to the booster from the command station has a bad habit about once a year of working its way loose. When I turn on the railroad and the top deck is dead, I know to reset that wire. Big deal, some day I will get around to getting a new connector for it.
cgrubb80 I did it. I bought the NCE Power Cab today from Caboose Hobbies. The sales person told me the price will be going up and the system was not as much as I had planned on. Besides I get my bonus from work this coming Friday. Now I have to get the layout ready.
I did it. I bought the NCE Power Cab today from Caboose Hobbies. The sales person told me the price will be going up and the system was not as much as I had planned on. Besides I get my bonus from work this coming Friday. Now I have to get the layout ready.
Congrats on the move. I think you'll be more than happy with it. Next put a DCC with Sound loco on your list
Springfield PA
cgrubb80Just one of many future questions have come to mind. I have an Atlas turntable set-up on my layout. What do I need to do to concert this DCC?
I've got an Atlas turntable and I run DCC. How do you control your Atlas turntable now? If you're happy with it, leave it alone. The turntable's rotation is completely independent of what's on the track. I run mine from an old power pack. At times, I think of connecting it to a decoder and using that to drive the motor. It should work, but I've never tried it. It would give me the ability to run the turntable from my throttle rather than the control panel.
The Atlas turntable also controls track polarity automatically. Again, if you like it the way it is, it will continue to work for you. You will NOT need a DCC auto-reverse unit for this turntable. There are other turntables on the market which do require some sort of reversing circuit, but this one doesn't.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.