richhotrainIf you create gaps inside the original gaps, as suggested in the PSX-AR instructions, then you have to wire feeders to supply power to the newly isolated sections caused by cutting new gaps.Rich
Rich
Rich, I thought you said this would work? Please tell me, if it doesn't work I'm going to lose my lunch. And then I'm going to throw the stupid passenger cars in the dumpster.
Thanks,
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I thought if I powered each of those gapped sections with the reversed power to the AR-1 output?
So this won't work?
MotleySo if I cut the gaps right after the frogs, and the next gaps are at 1 passenger car length from those gaps. That should work right?
So if I cut the gaps right after the frogs, and the next gaps are at 1 passenger car length from those gaps.
That should work right?
No, it won't work. That's what we are trying to tell you. That dead section that the PSX manual suggests is a half @$$ way of doing things. Forget about it because a gap as long as a passenger car will be a dead piece of track that long. How do you get the engine across it with no power? It won't glide that far not even with a flywheel.
Your reversing section does not have to be confined within the turnouts. It can include a turnout and some track beyond it. I have a wye similar to yours on a oNetrak module. It has an AR1 installed. When I set the module up in a layout I include a module or two past the turnout oin the reversing section. That lets us run longer trains.
Martin Myers
Michael,
From your photo, it appears that one leg of your wye feeds off the "mainline" by means of a left hand turnout,and the other leg of your wye rejoins the "mainline" by means of a right hand turnout.
If the leg of your wye is now long enough to hold the engine and all of the affected passenger cars, then it is enough to gap the rails of one leg, let's call it the lower leg from your photo. Place gaps where the lower leg joins the wye track and place gaps at the other end of the lower leg where it connects to the right hand turnout rejoining the "mainline".
If the lower leg of your wye is not long enough to hold the engine and all of the affected passenger cars, then you will still need to place gaps where the lower leg joins the wye track. In addition you will need to place gaps on the "mainline" somewhere beneath the right hand turnout where you will have enough space in your reversing section to hold the engine and all of the affected passenger cars. Then, you need to gap the rails at the top of the right hand turnout to complete the reversing section because, in that case, part of the "mainline" is affected.
Hope that helps.
Don't despair, when all is done, life will be good again.
Alton Junction
All the wye legs are continuous. I thought that with 4 gaps they will all be isolated? There would never be 2 cars on the same reverse track.
I had to pick the only cars that are super conductors. Oh and installing those light bars are way too difficult. I think I fried 4 of them stupid things.
Are all the legs of the wye continuous, or does one of them dead end at a bumper? If one is a dead end, you can make just that leg the reverse section, gap both tracks at the frog end of that turnout so that the turnout plus the dead end leg is the reverse section. No way can 2 cars cross the gaps at the same time with that arrangment.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
jalajoieIf the return loop is long enough to hold the entire train (2 passengers cars and locos), there is no need to cut additional gaps. Gaps at both end of the track are sufficient.
If the return loop is long enough to hold the entire train (2 passengers cars and locos), there is no need to cut additional gaps. Gaps at both end of the track are sufficient.
I couldn't get that much length, but I do have enough for 2 passenger cars. Still no need to gap?
This whole thing just really gets to me, I mean I was 8" from the promised land.
Jack W.
OK the track is done, just glued it. I have plenty of room now for two cars. But where exactly do I cut the gaps? One car length from each of the end gaps?
I'm just so *** off right now, I hate ripping up track, and now I'm tired, getting sloppy and well not in a good mood.
This thing is driving me crazy, specially the *** walthers passenger cars, don't even ask me about the lighting install.
I sure hope it works....
Make the red part the reversing track. It can extend down past those switches as far as you like to accommodate the longest train. Gaps and isolation go everywhere a red section meets a black section.
Bottom line is there can't be two of anything, either with metal wheels or lighting or powered pieces like locos crossing the gaps at the same time. If your new design is like this then it should be fine.
There's no reason to ditch the AR-1, it's a perfectly capable device. Do not buy into Tony's propoganda.
I just ripped out the track. And moved the switches at the bottom down about another foot. So with this, do I still have to have 4 gaps with the two inner gaps longer than my passanger car? Right?
Purchasing a more expensive auto reverser won't solve this problem. Your Walthers cars have all wheel pick up which creates a 6 inch long jumper wire. Your isolation section would have to be the length of the wheelbase of your longest Walther's car, not just one truck. That's a very long dead track section that even the most expensive reverser can't fix. Heck, even the 1 1/2 inch section is long for N Scale. Try getting a Bachmann 44 tonner across it at a crawl.
To make that reverse section longer simply electrically include one turnout and the single track leaving it in the reversing section. Not too hard to do.
All of the reponses so far, when read together, provide the answer and the solution to the problem.
First of all, I would not abandon the AR1 for the PSX-AR. There is nothing wrong with the PSX-AR, but there is nothing wrong with the AR1 either. I have two of them on my layout, and they are very dependable.
As to the shorting problem, the reversing section is likely too short and needs to be lengthened so that it is at least as long as the longest train. Actually, that isn't entirely true either. The reversing section needs to be as long as the longest portion of the train that is drawing power. You can have a single diesel pulling a string of 100 freight cars with metal wheels. As long as the reversing section is gapped to provide enough length for the diesel you would be OK. Since the metal wheels on the freight cars are insulated to prevent shorts, they present no problem. However, if a car has metal pickup wheels such as a passenger car picking up power for internal lighting, that car will cause a short unless it too is within the isolated (gapped) reversing section. Same for lighted cabooses.
If you don't want to rip up your track or don't have room to lengthen the reversing section, then, as one post already noted, just make a section of the mainline part of the reversing section.
If you create gaps inside the original gaps, as suggested in the PSX-AR instructions, then you have to wire feeders to supply power to the newly isolated sections caused by cutting new gaps.
So, Motley, the first question to resolve is whether the Amtrak cars are lighted, thereby causing the short whereas the other cars don't. If any of the lighted Amtrak cars are outside the reversing section while the engine and any other lighted passenger cars are inside the reversing section, you are going to cause a short.
If that is the problem, then just increase the length of the reversing section, either by making the wye portion longer or else by adding a section of the mainline track as part of the reversing section.
Motley ..The really weird thing is, my other long cars with metal wheels (auto-rak) did not cause it, only the amtrak cars.... Thanks, Michael
..The really weird thing is, my other long cars with metal wheels (auto-rak) did not cause it, only the amtrak cars....
Could be your Armtrak cars are equiped with electrical pickup for interior lighting. My Walthers heavy weight are so equiped and where causing the same problem. If you are not going to use interior lighting, your could isolate those pickup from the track power.
Michael, have we all agreed, and understood, that your three-car train was 'sticking out' of both ends of your reversing section? Or was the whole length of the operating consist within/between the gaps...meaning fully contained in the operating/switched length of the reversing section?
I'm not clear if it was due to metal trucks with metal wheels, metal trucks touching something they shouldn't on those tighter curves, the need for more gaps...or what.
I guess what I am saying is to try cutting four more gaps about 1.5" or so inside of the two sets of gaps you have now. It may make your problem go away, and you may find your AR-1 doing famously...no more aggravation. However, if you are agreeing that your train was so long that it stretched past the gap when the front end reached the one the train was heading to, then you must either shorten your train or lengthen the reversing section.
-Crandell
Ya that really sucks, now I have to re-work alot of track now. I think I'm going to get a better reverser too. The PSX-AR, and according to their manual, I need to create two more additional gaps that are longer then the trucks on the cars. Which makes sense, because that is exactly where it was shorting out.
The really weird thing is, my other long cars with metal wheels (auto-rak) did not cause it, only the amtrak cars.
From the manual on the PSX-AR
If your train is longer than your reverseblock and has metal wheels, you may needto cut additional gaps into the reversesection. Simply cut another set of gaps atboth ends of the reverse sections inside ofthe original gaps. The distance betweenthese gaps and the original gaps should belonger than the wheelbase of any metaltruck.
Motley OK I spoke too soon. Now I'm having a problem. Now it's shorting out the system, but only with my Walthers Amtrak Superliner II cars, and only when there are two or more cars crossing the reversed section. It's really weird, when I roll one car through, it's fine, but two cars shorts it out. And I tried adjusting to the lowest setting without it "chattering" by itself. Everything else is fine, the loco and 10 cars (short and long). What the heck is up with this thing?
OK I spoke too soon. Now I'm having a problem. Now it's shorting out the system, but only with my Walthers Amtrak Superliner II cars, and only when there are two or more cars crossing the reversed section. It's really weird, when I roll one car through, it's fine, but two cars shorts it out.
And I tried adjusting to the lowest setting without it "chattering" by itself.
Everything else is fine, the loco and 10 cars (short and long).
What the heck is up with this thing?
..................and only when there are two or more cars crossing the reversing section.
Those 13 words tell it all. As the previous post indicated, your reversing section isn't long enough to avoid the short. Your reversing unit is undoubtedly trying to reverse itself a second time without completing the first reversing action. The solution is to increase the length of the reversing section.
How long is the reversing section? It must be at least as long as your longest train. You can sometimes slip by that rule with plastic wheeled cars. Those passenger cars have metal wheels. If part of the train is leaving the section at the same time that the other end is entering, you have two short circuits at once. No auto reverser can handle two at the same time, so the system circuit breaker shuts down.
Solution, make the reverse section longer. Even if it means including part of the main.
Yup. You can minimize the sparks by adjusting the AR-1 as low as it can go and still work reliably. The hole thing works by detecing the short - so there has to be a short first, then it switches the poalrity fast enough that the system doesn't shut down. Too low a seting will make it see the motor load as a short and continually try to reverse the polarity (in dcc it's really the phase, not polarity) and the relay will 'chatter' Just past that point will be when the AR-1 is as sensitive as it can be without false operation - the optimal setting.
I just completed my wye and wired up the Digitrax AR-1. It works really good. Dang that so cool, now I can turn my trains around!!
One question though, when the cars are rolling over the gapped rails, I see a tiny little spark, is this normal?