The wye.. it works it works!!

[Motley]

selector

My own hand in your success is next to nil, but I am still happy to read posts from frustrated users who come back and report that they have their problem solved.   It is good for the forum, and great feedback for those who stick with the sometimes increasingly despondent or downright angry poster who has the problem...we have some very patient and talented people here.

-Crandell

 

Thanks Crandell, you helped quite a bit also. I have to admit, I was a little angry and frustrated and ready to give up this idea, and really the solution was not that hard to implement. I realize that the trackwork I ripped out was probably for nothing, but heh I don't care now that it's all good.

Sincerely the happy camper,

Michael

[selector]

My own hand in your success is next to nil, but I am still happy to read posts from frustrated users who come back and report that they have their problem solved.   It is good for the forum, and great feedback for those who stick with the sometimes increasingly despondent or downright angry poster who has the problem...we have some very patient and talented people here.

-Crandell

[locoworks]

LOL,  nice one.

[Motley]

Rich...done...

 

 

Much thanks again!!

 

Michael

[richhotrain]

Motley

I have good news. IT REALLY WORKS THIS TIME!!!!!!!!

I finally can run my passenger trains through the wye now without shorting out!! It's all good now, the sun is shining, the birds are chirping.

Rich, Crandel, Robert, and everyone else in this thread, I really really appreciate all the help you guys have giving me.

I can't thank you guys enough, I'm buying everyone BEERS!!!!!!!

Michael,

That is very cool ! 

Congrats!

I'll have a Beck's when you get a moment.  .......................and some Fritos.

Rich

[Motley]

I have good news. IT REALLY WORKS THIS TIME!!!!!!!!

I finally can run my passenger trains through the wye now without shorting out!! It's all good now, the sun is shining, the birds are chirping.

Rich, Crandel, Robert, and everyone else in this thread, I really really appreciate all the help you guys have giving me.

I can't thank you guys enough, I'm buying everyone BEERS!!!!!!!

[richhotrain]

Motley

richhotrain

Michael,

Is it possible to move the gaps on the left side of your layout diagram, so that the turnout is gapped before the passing siding rather than your proposed arrangement where both tracks are gapped at the other end of the turnout?   In other words, gap the two rails at the bottom of the turnout rather than the four rails at the top or upper portion of the turnout.  That way the entire passing siding is outside of the reversing section.   That just seems like a cleaner arrangement.

Rich

 

Rich,

Yes I do agree, however, the moutain tunnel portal is covering the front part of that switch.

Ahh, then no can do.  Then, just do it the way that you most recently diagrammed it.

[Motley]

richhotrain

Michael,

Is it possible to move the gaps on the left side of your layout diagram, so that the turnout is gapped before the passing siding rather than your proposed arrangement where both tracks are gapped at the other end of the turnout?   In other words, gap the two rails at the bottom of the turnout rather than the four rails at the top or upper portion of the turnout.  That way the entire passing siding is outside of the reversing section.   That just seems like a cleaner arrangement.

Rich

 

Rich,

Yes I do agree, however, the moutain tunnel portal is covering the front part of that switch.

[richhotrain]

Michael,

Is it possible to move the gaps on the left side of your layout diagram, so that the turnout is gapped before the passing siding rather than your proposed arrangement where both tracks are gapped at the other end of the turnout?   In other words, gap the two rails at the bottom of the turnout rather than the four rails at the top or upper portion of the turnout.  That way the entire passing siding is outside of the reversing section.   That just seems like a cleaner arrangement.

Rich

[Motley]

OK just so we are all in agreement here, the gaps will go as follows...

 

[CSX Robert]

Motley

What if I have another train in the passing siding, on the left side, since I am extending the reversing section up through there. Will that work ok?

Yes, that will work; however, what you can not do is have a train crossing the insulated gaps on either of the tracks at that location while another train is crossing the gaps on the left leg of the wye. Depending on how you plan on operating and whether or not the reversing section would still be long enough, you might be better off moving the gaps on the left hand side down to just below the turnout for that siding. It just looks to me like you would have less likely hood of trying to cross both sets of gaps at the same time with that arrangement.

You also cannot cross the gaps on the left leg of the wye at the same time that you cross the either set of gaps on the right leg of the wye. For that reason, I would move all three of those sets of gaps as close to the two turnouts on the bottom of the wye as possible.

[richhotrain]

Motley

I just had an aha moment!! OK, I fully understand now. I was close! Tonight I will give this a shot, wish me luck.

Question: What if I have another train in the passing siding, on the left side, since I am extending the reversing section up through there. Will that work ok?

Thanks again to everybody who helped me out with this, I really appreciate that!

 

Michael

......and good luck tonight, let us know how it all works out.

[richhotrain]

Motley

Question: What if I have another train in the passing siding, on the left side, since I am extending the reversing section up through there. Will that work ok?

Michael

Michael,

Actually, I wondered about that, and I am not sure that I know the answer.  It may be that a train entering or leaving the siding at the same time that another train is entering or leaving the reversing section at another point may cause a short.  If I were wiring that reversing section, I would probably move the gaps down on the left side of your diagram just below the turnout leading to the passing siding so that the passing siding is not part of the reversing section.

Rich

[Motley]

I just had an aha moment!! OK, I fully understand now. I was close! Tonight I will give this a shot, wish me luck.

Question: What if I have another train in the passing siding, on the left side, since I am extending the reversing section up through there. Will that work ok?

Thanks again to everybody who helped me out with this, I really appreciate that!

 

Michael

[richhotrain]

Michael,

CSX and mfm37 are right.  If you try to complete your reversing section by creating gaps on the other side of your mountain tunnel, you have effectively incorporated that second right hand turnout, the one below the right hand turnout leading to your wye, into your reversing section.  So, you must create a set of rail gaps somewhere beyond the diverging rails of that second right hand turnout as mfm37 has illustrated in your layout diagram.  That way, you have completely isolated your reversing section.  Without the final set of rail gaps, when your auto-reverser is activated by a reverse polarity, you will suddenly have reversed the polarity of the rails leading off of the diverging portion of that second right hand turnout, causing a short.

Capice?

Rich

[mfm37]

One more set of gaps. Make sure you connect the feeders from all of the rail within the gaps to the AR1.

[CSX Robert]

You're still missin a set of gaps. You need another set on the track right next to the last set you added.

[Motley]

I think I was missing a set of gaps, added 3rd gaps to other leg of the wye.

Is this it?

 

[Motley]

Thanks Rich, yes I saw the diagrams. It's hard for me to visualize with my layout.

But, here is where I think they should go. Starting at the top end of the wye down through the two switches, through the mountain tunnel and back up the other side. Then wire everything in that section to the reverser outputs.

Like this ??? (gaps marked in red)

Thanks,

Michael

[richhotrain]

Motley

Thanks Crandel and Robert.

Could you please edit my layout pic, and show me exactly where to place the gaps? (I'm braindead right now)

I appreciate all the help you guys!!

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,

Did you look at the 3 diagrams that I provided links to?

These diagrams illustrate your problem and show where to place the insulated gaps to create a reversing section and solve your problem.

Rich

[Motley]

Thanks Crandel and Robert.

Could you please edit my layout pic, and show me exactly where to place the gaps? (I'm braindead right now)

I appreciate all the help you guys!!

Thanks,

Michael

[Motley]

CSX Robert

After seeing your layout plan, here is what I would do: 
Have the reversing section the red section in the above drawing. Have it extend far enough to be sure to include all of your longest train, possibly through the mountain tunnel to the next turnout.

Oh wow, ok now that would be easy to impliement. Where exactly do I cut the gaps, at the end of the frogs?

I don't under stand though, the trains will be coming through the tunnel, in the reversing section, the it hits the wye and polarity is ok at that point?

I think this is the best solution yet, because my passenger trains won't be that long. And I can still have my frieght trains longer than the wye, since I never had issues with those in the first place.

[selector]

Where your triangle is, you end up going east with two tracks.  Forget the southern parallel...it is irrelevant if your track is laid as you have depicted it.  Now, what we see as the parallel northern track, it ends in a turnout running N/S at the right of the diagram. It is the track nearest the southern wall of Union Station.

We're going to label this track the 'tail' of your turning wye.  If you were to place gaps right at the Union Station end of the tail, at the end of the turnout, and cut another gap just before the N/S turnout at right, you have a sizeable reversing section to use.  Your reverser only has to match power phase at either end of this section.  As long as your entire train, heck throw in the couplers for insurance, fits between the two gaps, your reverser will be happy and do as it is designed to do.  Make the AR feed only that lenght...nothing else.  Its own input comes directly off the main bus.

All the segments on the other sides of the frogs of those two limiting turnouts must have their own feed, also off the main.  Unless, of course, those turnouts are power routing.

-Crandell

[CSX Robert]

After seeing your layout plan, here is what I would do:
Have the reversing section the red section in the above drawing. Have it extend far enough to be sure to include all of your longest train, possibly through the mountain tunnel to the next turnout.

[richhotrain]

I am not sure that I linked this correctly, but the first diagram illustrates the problem when the polarity of the two individual rails is mismatched.  The wye is on the far right and the left hand and right hand turnouts lead into and out of the wye.  Each rail is colored differently, red or blue, so you can visualize the shorting problem.  See diagram Wye-1.

Wye-2 diagram shows where to place insulated gaps to create a reversing section.  This will only work if the engine and any powered cars can fit within the reversing section created by the insulated gaps.

Wye-3 diagram illustrates the creation of a larger reversing section that needs to extend beyond the leg of the wye.  In this instance, a third set of insulated gaps needs to created avoid shorts. 

Notice that the reversing section is needed to match polarity of the rails through the use of an auto-reverse mechanism.

Rich

 

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/richhotrain/Wye-1.jpg

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/richhotrain/Wye-2.jpg

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/richhotrain/Wye-3.jpg

[Motley]

I'm about to just toss the idea of turning the passenger trains around at this point. I mean..my other trains work just fine with it.

In my expansion room, there is only one way in and one way out, which is why I came up with the stupid idea of the wye. I have staging planned, so I can just turn them about by hand.

[Hamltnblue]

 What if you totally isolate the turnout and use a tortoise which has a double throw contact. You drive through the wye onto the straight section.  When you throw the turnout the tortoise switches the voltage to the other section. Without pencil and paper in hand I cant draw it but if you provide enough isolation it does sound doable. It might even take a second relay with contacts.

[Motley]

Maybe it will help if I post my entire layout. But If I have to rip up any more track...well let's not go there please!

Thanks,

Michael

[rrinker]

 How far does the right-hand side go before it connects to anything? Or the track at the bottom. If you have the space on the right, make that turnout plus a train length of the track there the isolated reverse section. Making a bunch of little sections and powering them all through the autoreverserwon't work.

 Here's a picture from the Digitrax site:

In this example, the majority of two of the curved sides plus the enttire section of track to the left are controlled by the AR1. If the track on the left was not a dead end as in the example, you'd just ad another set of gaps so that the distance between the gaps was at least a train length. If within a train length along the leg you have other sidings, you can keep them powered via the AR1 or else insulate the diverging route of each turnout and power the siding from the main bus, either way will work but it it will be posible to have a loco switching cars on the siding while another rolls through the whye you may need to include the siding in the section powered by the AR1 - otherwise you could have 2 potential shorts occurring.

                                          --Randy