I just completed my wye and wired up the Digitrax AR-1. It works really good. Dang that so cool, now I can turn my trains around!!
One question though, when the cars are rolling over the gapped rails, I see a tiny little spark, is this normal?
Thanks,
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Yup. You can minimize the sparks by adjusting the AR-1 as low as it can go and still work reliably. The hole thing works by detecing the short - so there has to be a short first, then it switches the poalrity fast enough that the system doesn't shut down. Too low a seting will make it see the motor load as a short and continually try to reverse the polarity (in dcc it's really the phase, not polarity) and the relay will 'chatter' Just past that point will be when the AR-1 is as sensitive as it can be without false operation - the optimal setting.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
OK I spoke too soon. Now I'm having a problem. Now it's shorting out the system, but only with my Walthers Amtrak Superliner II cars, and only when there are two or more cars crossing the reversed section. It's really weird, when I roll one car through, it's fine, but two cars shorts it out.
And I tried adjusting to the lowest setting without it "chattering" by itself.
Everything else is fine, the loco and 10 cars (short and long).
What the heck is up with this thing?
How long is the reversing section? It must be at least as long as your longest train. You can sometimes slip by that rule with plastic wheeled cars. Those passenger cars have metal wheels. If part of the train is leaving the section at the same time that the other end is entering, you have two short circuits at once. No auto reverser can handle two at the same time, so the system circuit breaker shuts down.
Solution, make the reverse section longer. Even if it means including part of the main.
Martin Myers
Motley OK I spoke too soon. Now I'm having a problem. Now it's shorting out the system, but only with my Walthers Amtrak Superliner II cars, and only when there are two or more cars crossing the reversed section. It's really weird, when I roll one car through, it's fine, but two cars shorts it out. And I tried adjusting to the lowest setting without it "chattering" by itself. Everything else is fine, the loco and 10 cars (short and long). What the heck is up with this thing?
..................and only when there are two or more cars crossing the reversing section.
Those 13 words tell it all. As the previous post indicated, your reversing section isn't long enough to avoid the short. Your reversing unit is undoubtedly trying to reverse itself a second time without completing the first reversing action. The solution is to increase the length of the reversing section.
Alton Junction
Ya that really sucks, now I have to re-work alot of track now. I think I'm going to get a better reverser too. The PSX-AR, and according to their manual, I need to create two more additional gaps that are longer then the trucks on the cars. Which makes sense, because that is exactly where it was shorting out.
The really weird thing is, my other long cars with metal wheels (auto-rak) did not cause it, only the amtrak cars.
From the manual on the PSX-AR
If your train is longer than your reverseblock and has metal wheels, you may needto cut additional gaps into the reversesection. Simply cut another set of gaps atboth ends of the reverse sections inside ofthe original gaps. The distance betweenthese gaps and the original gaps should belonger than the wheelbase of any metaltruck.
Michael, have we all agreed, and understood, that your three-car train was 'sticking out' of both ends of your reversing section? Or was the whole length of the operating consist within/between the gaps...meaning fully contained in the operating/switched length of the reversing section?
I'm not clear if it was due to metal trucks with metal wheels, metal trucks touching something they shouldn't on those tighter curves, the need for more gaps...or what.
I guess what I am saying is to try cutting four more gaps about 1.5" or so inside of the two sets of gaps you have now. It may make your problem go away, and you may find your AR-1 doing famously...no more aggravation. However, if you are agreeing that your train was so long that it stretched past the gap when the front end reached the one the train was heading to, then you must either shorten your train or lengthen the reversing section.
-Crandell
Motley ..The really weird thing is, my other long cars with metal wheels (auto-rak) did not cause it, only the amtrak cars.... Thanks, Michael
..The really weird thing is, my other long cars with metal wheels (auto-rak) did not cause it, only the amtrak cars....
Could be your Armtrak cars are equiped with electrical pickup for interior lighting. My Walthers heavy weight are so equiped and where causing the same problem. If you are not going to use interior lighting, your could isolate those pickup from the track power.
Jack W.
All of the reponses so far, when read together, provide the answer and the solution to the problem.
First of all, I would not abandon the AR1 for the PSX-AR. There is nothing wrong with the PSX-AR, but there is nothing wrong with the AR1 either. I have two of them on my layout, and they are very dependable.
As to the shorting problem, the reversing section is likely too short and needs to be lengthened so that it is at least as long as the longest train. Actually, that isn't entirely true either. The reversing section needs to be as long as the longest portion of the train that is drawing power. You can have a single diesel pulling a string of 100 freight cars with metal wheels. As long as the reversing section is gapped to provide enough length for the diesel you would be OK. Since the metal wheels on the freight cars are insulated to prevent shorts, they present no problem. However, if a car has metal pickup wheels such as a passenger car picking up power for internal lighting, that car will cause a short unless it too is within the isolated (gapped) reversing section. Same for lighted cabooses.
If you don't want to rip up your track or don't have room to lengthen the reversing section, then, as one post already noted, just make a section of the mainline part of the reversing section.
If you create gaps inside the original gaps, as suggested in the PSX-AR instructions, then you have to wire feeders to supply power to the newly isolated sections caused by cutting new gaps.
So, Motley, the first question to resolve is whether the Amtrak cars are lighted, thereby causing the short whereas the other cars don't. If any of the lighted Amtrak cars are outside the reversing section while the engine and any other lighted passenger cars are inside the reversing section, you are going to cause a short.
If that is the problem, then just increase the length of the reversing section, either by making the wye portion longer or else by adding a section of the mainline track as part of the reversing section.
Rich
Purchasing a more expensive auto reverser won't solve this problem. Your Walthers cars have all wheel pick up which creates a 6 inch long jumper wire. Your isolation section would have to be the length of the wheelbase of your longest Walther's car, not just one truck. That's a very long dead track section that even the most expensive reverser can't fix. Heck, even the 1 1/2 inch section is long for N Scale. Try getting a Bachmann 44 tonner across it at a crawl.
To make that reverse section longer simply electrically include one turnout and the single track leaving it in the reversing section. Not too hard to do.
I just ripped out the track. And moved the switches at the bottom down about another foot. So with this, do I still have to have 4 gaps with the two inner gaps longer than my passanger car? Right?
Bottom line is there can't be two of anything, either with metal wheels or lighting or powered pieces like locos crossing the gaps at the same time. If your new design is like this then it should be fine.
There's no reason to ditch the AR-1, it's a perfectly capable device. Do not buy into Tony's propoganda.
Make the red part the reversing track. It can extend down past those switches as far as you like to accommodate the longest train. Gaps and isolation go everywhere a red section meets a black section.
OK the track is done, just glued it. I have plenty of room now for two cars. But where exactly do I cut the gaps? One car length from each of the end gaps?
I'm just so *** off right now, I hate ripping up track, and now I'm tired, getting sloppy and well not in a good mood.
This thing is driving me crazy, specially the *** walthers passenger cars, don't even ask me about the lighting install.
I sure hope it works....
If the return loop is long enough to hold the entire train (2 passengers cars and locos), there is no need to cut additional gaps. Gaps at both end of the track are sufficient.
jalajoieIf the return loop is long enough to hold the entire train (2 passengers cars and locos), there is no need to cut additional gaps. Gaps at both end of the track are sufficient.
I couldn't get that much length, but I do have enough for 2 passenger cars. Still no need to gap?
This whole thing just really gets to me, I mean I was 8" from the promised land.
Are all the legs of the wye continuous, or does one of them dead end at a bumper? If one is a dead end, you can make just that leg the reverse section, gap both tracks at the frog end of that turnout so that the turnout plus the dead end leg is the reverse section. No way can 2 cars cross the gaps at the same time with that arrangment.
All the wye legs are continuous. I thought that with 4 gaps they will all be isolated? There would never be 2 cars on the same reverse track.
So if I cut the gaps right after the frogs, and the next gaps are at 1 passenger car length from those gaps.
That should work right?
I had to pick the only cars that are super conductors. Oh and installing those light bars are way too difficult. I think I fried 4 of them stupid things.
Michael,
From your photo, it appears that one leg of your wye feeds off the "mainline" by means of a left hand turnout,and the other leg of your wye rejoins the "mainline" by means of a right hand turnout.
If the leg of your wye is now long enough to hold the engine and all of the affected passenger cars, then it is enough to gap the rails of one leg, let's call it the lower leg from your photo. Place gaps where the lower leg joins the wye track and place gaps at the other end of the lower leg where it connects to the right hand turnout rejoining the "mainline".
If the lower leg of your wye is not long enough to hold the engine and all of the affected passenger cars, then you will still need to place gaps where the lower leg joins the wye track. In addition you will need to place gaps on the "mainline" somewhere beneath the right hand turnout where you will have enough space in your reversing section to hold the engine and all of the affected passenger cars. Then, you need to gap the rails at the top of the right hand turnout to complete the reversing section because, in that case, part of the "mainline" is affected.
Hope that helps.
Don't despair, when all is done, life will be good again.
MotleySo if I cut the gaps right after the frogs, and the next gaps are at 1 passenger car length from those gaps. That should work right?
No, it won't work. That's what we are trying to tell you. That dead section that the PSX manual suggests is a half @$$ way of doing things. Forget about it because a gap as long as a passenger car will be a dead piece of track that long. How do you get the engine across it with no power? It won't glide that far not even with a flywheel.
Your reversing section does not have to be confined within the turnouts. It can include a turnout and some track beyond it. I have a wye similar to yours on a oNetrak module. It has an AR1 installed. When I set the module up in a layout I include a module or two past the turnout oin the reversing section. That lets us run longer trains.
I thought if I powered each of those gapped sections with the reversed power to the AR-1 output?
So this won't work?
richhotrainIf you create gaps inside the original gaps, as suggested in the PSX-AR instructions, then you have to wire feeders to supply power to the newly isolated sections caused by cutting new gaps.Rich
Rich, I thought you said this would work? Please tell me, if it doesn't work I'm going to lose my lunch. And then I'm going to throw the stupid passenger cars in the dumpster.
How far does the right-hand side go before it connects to anything? Or the track at the bottom. If you have the space on the right, make that turnout plus a train length of the track there the isolated reverse section. Making a bunch of little sections and powering them all through the autoreverserwon't work.
Here's a picture from the Digitrax site:
In this example, the majority of two of the curved sides plus the enttire section of track to the left are controlled by the AR1. If the track on the left was not a dead end as in the example, you'd just ad another set of gaps so that the distance between the gaps was at least a train length. If within a train length along the leg you have other sidings, you can keep them powered via the AR1 or else insulate the diverging route of each turnout and power the siding from the main bus, either way will work but it it will be posible to have a loco switching cars on the siding while another rolls through the whye you may need to include the siding in the section powered by the AR1 - otherwise you could have 2 potential shorts occurring.
Maybe it will help if I post my entire layout. But If I have to rip up any more track...well let's not go there please!
What if you totally isolate the turnout and use a tortoise which has a double throw contact. You drive through the wye onto the straight section. When you throw the turnout the tortoise switches the voltage to the other section. Without pencil and paper in hand I cant draw it but if you provide enough isolation it does sound doable. It might even take a second relay with contacts.
Springfield PA
I'm about to just toss the idea of turning the passenger trains around at this point. I mean..my other trains work just fine with it.
In my expansion room, there is only one way in and one way out, which is why I came up with the stupid idea of the wye. I have staging planned, so I can just turn them about by hand.
I am not sure that I linked this correctly, but the first diagram illustrates the problem when the polarity of the two individual rails is mismatched. The wye is on the far right and the left hand and right hand turnouts lead into and out of the wye. Each rail is colored differently, red or blue, so you can visualize the shorting problem. See diagram Wye-1.
Wye-2 diagram shows where to place insulated gaps to create a reversing section. This will only work if the engine and any powered cars can fit within the reversing section created by the insulated gaps.
Wye-3 diagram illustrates the creation of a larger reversing section that needs to extend beyond the leg of the wye. In this instance, a third set of insulated gaps needs to created avoid shorts.
Notice that the reversing section is needed to match polarity of the rails through the use of an auto-reverse mechanism.
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/richhotrain/Wye-1.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/richhotrain/Wye-2.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/richhotrain/Wye-3.jpg
Where your triangle is, you end up going east with two tracks. Forget the southern parallel...it is irrelevant if your track is laid as you have depicted it. Now, what we see as the parallel northern track, it ends in a turnout running N/S at the right of the diagram. It is the track nearest the southern wall of Union Station.
We're going to label this track the 'tail' of your turning wye. If you were to place gaps right at the Union Station end of the tail, at the end of the turnout, and cut another gap just before the N/S turnout at right, you have a sizeable reversing section to use. Your reverser only has to match power phase at either end of this section. As long as your entire train, heck throw in the couplers for insurance, fits between the two gaps, your reverser will be happy and do as it is designed to do. Make the AR feed only that lenght...nothing else. Its own input comes directly off the main bus.
All the segments on the other sides of the frogs of those two limiting turnouts must have their own feed, also off the main. Unless, of course, those turnouts are power routing.
CSX RobertAfter seeing your layout plan, here is what I would do: Have the reversing section the red section in the above drawing. Have it extend far enough to be sure to include all of your longest train, possibly through the mountain tunnel to the next turnout.
Oh wow, ok now that would be easy to impliement. Where exactly do I cut the gaps, at the end of the frogs?
I don't under stand though, the trains will be coming through the tunnel, in the reversing section, the it hits the wye and polarity is ok at that point?
I think this is the best solution yet, because my passenger trains won't be that long. And I can still have my frieght trains longer than the wye, since I never had issues with those in the first place.