OK, I've been doing some more digging based upon the feedback so far, excellent feedback by the way, thanks all. I'm glad I signed up for the MRR magazine even if it does appear to lean more heavily into HO rather my gauge of choice N (its a space thing). This forum is worth the subscription price.
I've concluded that an initial zephyr purchase would get us most of the way there and that the addition of a UR91 and DT402R would bring into play the wireless radio capability down the road.
I noticed that the Zephyr has a "Function 2" key that is momentary as long as its depressed for sound functions. Are there more than one Function 2 keys? Will the addition of the DT402R provide access to more Function 2 style keys? I'm assuming here that the Function 2 key is independently programmed for whichever Loco is currently being addressed by the Zephyr but I'd like to have the option to more than one dedicated function per Loco if possible, not mandatory.
I also like the address 00 DC feature, all of my existing LOCOs are currently DCC ready except for an older Super Chief Bachman that I would like to run on occasion (if it'll run on code 55 rails...ouch). The DC feature now that I think about would let me migrate as I can afford it into DCC decoders (I'd forgotten about that).
Thanks again all, I think this may be the direction we'll go and the little extra power of 2.5 amps may be all we'll ever need.
John
jcook01 To clarify my situation further I can see two operators max on my layout. Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct? Maybe I'm wrong here, I've no real world experience working with DCC to date. To further clarify for arguments sake I'll have about 12 engines on the layout with four consisted or solo-engine trains running on average at any one time. The rest sitting in the shed, siding or the yard etc.
John,
Yes, you will initially need an address each locomotive before putting it in a consist. However, a consist will have only one address and all the individual locomotives will programmed to and respond to that one address - i.e. until you break up or kill the consist. Then each locomotive returns to its 2- or 4-digit address that you initially gave it.
John, I'm not entirely sure but I suspect that some clarification may be in order here. A recall stack is a list of "recent" locomotive addresses in your throttle's cache that you can recall at a given moment while you are operating with your throttle.
The Power Cab has a 2 locomotive limit; the Zephyr, 10. Although the recall stack is different between the two, each has the ability to store up to 9,999 locomotive addresses.
Say you have your consist of four locomotives and another single locomotive. Your consist would have one address and your single locomotive would have another. Therefore, you would only need two addresses to run a total of 5 locomotives. The Power Cab would feasibly be able to handle both - i.e. enough power for operation and the ability to toggle back and forth between the two addresses.
Since I have a small layout (4 x 8), the limited recall stack of the Power Cab is not a big deal to me. Running more than two locomotives simultaneously would be both flirting with trouble and taxing the capacity of my brain. LOL!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Just curious as to why you are thinking simplex radio instead of duplex. I think duplex only costs about $20 more total for both throttle and receiver.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
tstageeach has the ability to store up to 9,999 locomotive addresses
I'm not quite sure that this is correct. I believe that consist addresses are stored, but I don't think individual loco addresses are stored.
Are you thinking of just starting with a Zephyr alone with no hand-held throttle? If so, this doesn't work very well in running several trains at the same time. There is no "recall stack" so you have to punch in each loco address when you want to select it. You can have several trains running at the same time but to switch back and forth you must punch in the address each time. This can be a bit awkward if you need to switch back and forth very quickly.
Also it has a potentiometer so when you select a moving loco you have to preset the speed dial to about where you think the loco is running or else you get a severe and abrupt speed change.
Starting off with a Zephyr and a DT402 series throttle is the ideal setup.
All functions, including F2, are only active for the currently selected loco and are not "programmed" for specific locos.
You are probably aware that you can only run one DC loco at a time on Digitrax.
Well that was enlightening.
Yes I was planning to use the Zephyr standalone for awhile and I thought that it did have a recall stack, yes I do want a recall stack,
Also it never occured to me that I'd have to readjust the throttle after selecting the new engine and then watch it speed up or slow down due to a mismatch in speed. Not good.
Well now I'm back to square one,
Thanks all, appreciate the feedback and the schooling.
John, that is good that you are finding out the little nuances of each system, this way you can at least start with something that comes close to meeting your needs. However, the likelihood is that there will be some level of compromise, even if you jump up to one of the higher end starter sets.
I was about to comment that the speed mismatch issue has never really bothered me on my Zephyr, but realize that I hardly ever use the Z as my throttle, preferring to use the DT402 as my control of choice. I took my Z over to CudaKen's house for him to try when he was making a decision, and it was this speed change issue that put him off the unit completely. He ended up going for a Super Empire Builder set instead.
Bottom line is that NCE and Digitrax do make decent product, you just have to figure out which one comes closest to meeting your needs. I am not sure that I would discount MRC either and would certainly give Lenz a look. I for one would not purchase the MRC system, because I find great value in the Decoder Pro application and rather resent MRC's decision not to support it and offer their own proprietary solution instead.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I remember looking at a video on the MRR's website a few months back where they were discussing the installation of a new CVP EasyDCC system.
I read awhile on their site last night in trying to ascertain what features they have or are missing from my wish list. Is it me or do they not provide much information up front in their brochures.
I'll go digging through the forum here for past comments on the EasyDCC starter systems....I'll be back.
Hmm, it appears that EasyDCC is limited to F0-12 on the audio features side and the throttles on the control panel appear to suffer from the same malaise as the Zephyr, potentiometer only with no recall stack memory for last throttle setting for each Loco currently under steam.
Ok, scratch that one.
Don't fall prey to the misconception that a system less than F0-F28 is inferior. For most MRRers, F0-F8 is more than adequate. Lights (F0), bell (F1), and horn/whistle (F2) are the most commonly used. The others are more gimmicky than anything.
maxman,
Perhaps "store" was a poor choice of words. What I meant to say is that you can address a locomotive with a 4-digit number from 0-9999. The address storing is actually in the decoder.
Tom,
Thanks but after reading some of the functions in the F-teens there are a couple there that I'd play with.
One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on. I will spend a bit more now if necessary to prevent having to pull something out and shelve it later as our needs expand.
Maybe I should just jump to the wireless Chief out of the box and be done with it but I'd really prefer to incrementally buy up to that point if possible. The available entry level starter systems appear to be too limited to allow that so I guess I'm now looking at entry level mid-priced hardware.
Maxman,
Yes, I'm that lazy. I'd prefer to push the button and scroll through the list of locos and press enter. It would make easier on the kids as well. Question: Does any of the systems out there allow one to also add a description of the train stored into memory. I'm sure this probably exists in PC control software but was wondering if it's a feature on any of the hand held throttles as well.
jcook01 One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on.
One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on.
Digitrax is VERY good in that respect. They have designed their product so that nothing becomes obsolete after an upgrade. My understanding is that even the Zephyr can be used as a 2.5A booster. Very smart designing in my book. I think NCE has taken a page from Digitrax's philosophy in that regard in the redesign of their Smart Booster (SB3a).
Some of the Euro systems like the ESU Ecos http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digitale-steuerung/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ do provide more of a description based user interface, I beleive the Roco Locomouse system does as well. None of these systems are especially well entrenched in the US market, so support and local knowledge may be an issue.
Here are a couple of observations from my own experience. First of all my boys have no issues whatsoever selecting locos with any of the Digitrax throttles. They just key them in, and don't bother with the stack on the DT402's anyway
Second observation is that the previously discussed Zephyr and DT402 combination would get you going and can be built upon as your needs grow, with no real cost penalty. You can add wireless later, just plug it in and get the throttle upgraded. The cost to upgrade the DT throttle is very reasonable and does not cost anymore than if you purchased it with radio in the first place. Then if you add a Chief in the future, the Z can cease to be the command station, but will give you a 2.5A booster to run a power district. The Z throttle is great for a yard as well.
The one thing that I really like about the DT400 series throttles is the dual knob control. Having direct control over 2 locos at the same time without having to access a stack or switch is a very nice feature.
Decoder Pro software, does indeed allow for not only descriptions, but images of the locos as well. There is a throttle utility that you can get for the iPhone that allows a wireless throttle to run via the PC controlling the layout.
Also - a "recall stack' is highly overrated. How this works on most systems that have one is you hit the loco select button and then use either the throttle wheel or push the button to cycle through all the loco addesses currently in the recall stack. Then push the select or enter button to make your choice. So there are a minimum of 4 button presses to get to the second loco on the rcall stack. If there are 6 locos and you want #6 - 8 button presses. If you are using 4-digit addressing for all locos and they all have 4 digits in the address (ex. 1234, not 855), so select ANY loco you own, whether or not it was recently used, is 6 button presses. Always exactly the same. Some systems, liek the DT400/402 throttles from Digitrax, have a configurable size tot he recall stack, up to 16. For the 16th loco in the stack that's 18 button presses (equivalent - you can turn the knob to scroll throught he stack on a DT400) - is that REALLY faster than just keying in the address of the loco you want to operate? The disadvantage of the stack method grow when some locos have 2 and 3 digit address - for example all my switchers have 2 digit addresses following the actual prototyical cab number. My road units all have 3 digits int eh road number, not 4. So to select any loco on my layout, it's no more than 5 button presses.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Also - a "recall stack' is highly overrated.
Yes it's overrated in some respects but this is where NCE and MRC are superior. One push of the recall button and the loco that comes up is ready to control with no further button presses. If you are running more than one train this is really slick for switching back and forth.
I really like the MRC recall, not because it has a 25 loco stack (which most would never want to use), but because any loco in the stack can be immediately removed with one push of the delete button.
But having more than just a few locos in the stack isn't very useful to me.
OK so recall stack isn't all that and a bag of chips however remembering the last throttle setting used for all locos in memory would still be a deal closer for me. So unfortunately that still makes the Zephyr a no go and the PowerCab doesn't support other basic features I require.
So going the next tier up what's the major differences between the empire builder CPU board and that contained in the Chief? Other than two communication from your layout to the CPU does the Empire have any other limited features?
To reiterate the lack of DC support on the NCE as well as separate powered programming track has pushed that lower on the list. Not completely off the radar but I'd prefer to focus on the two upper tiers from Digitrax for the moment.
Once again I apologize for hijacking this thread but I hope the author is reading and learning as well.
Regards, John
The greatest difference between the SEB and the SC is the lack of a dedicated program track that can read and write CV's while the rest of the layout is operational. Based on your previous desires I would not give the SEB a 2nd look and just go for the SC.
so if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work?
Simon,
Thanks, the Chief has been floating around in my thoughts as well, now I'm attempting to quantify how much power I'll require. Blocks or zones aren't a large concern, on the three door size panel layout I'll have two mainlines circumnavigating most of all three tables, a switching yard and three or four main sidings with a half a dozen small customer siding sprinkled about.
Probably no more than four trains running at any given time comprised of about 8 engines total, consisted, and four sound decoders max. Also eventually I'd like to install some local signaling (light detector) and run a few switches on the mains and sidings.
Will 5amps suffice or should I go with 8amps?
Thanks, John
For a 'home' layout - The Digitrax Zephyr and NCE Power Cab are very nice. Here are some thoughts:
Zephyr - The lack of 'remembering the last speed setting as you try to jump through a 'stack' from the built-in throttle may be a limitation. But I would normally be using a hand held throttle anyway. Running your trains from a single location is not the current direction of the hobby. And a large 'recall' stack really is not needed any way.
Power Cab - I love the NCE throttle - one of the best features of this setup. The lack of dedicated programming track could be an issue, but:
How often are you going to run trains while programming on the program track? I use my program track to either 'reset' a decoder to the factory defaults, or set the engine's number/address in the decoder. Everything else can be done by programming 'on the main'. Using the NCE 'Auto SW' will turn off power to the layout if 'blast' mode programming is done so you do not reprogram every engine on the layout - a nice feature. The 'Auto SW' will even work on a Digitrax Empire Builder.
The above said - What do I use? I have a Digitrax Super Chief with a 5 amp booster, radio throttles, etc...lots of 'over-kill' for a home layout. I also have a Digitrax Zephyr I picked up from a LHS that was going out of business. I am quite impressed with the Zephyr and would have bought one if it had been available in the late 90's when I bought the Chief series system. The Zephyr resides 'upstairs' with some Bachmann EZ Track and is used to program/test engines via Decoder Pro. I never use the built-in throttle - I just grab a DT400 series throttle from the layout and use it to run engines. Most of the programming is done on the computer with Decoder Pro.
If I had to start from scratch - I would buy a Zephyr, DT402D radio throttle, UR92 radio receiver & a PR3 to hook the whole thing up to a computer - Home layout is 'wired'!
Jim
.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jcook01Will 5amps suffice or should I go with 8amps?
5A will almost certainly be more than enough, my Z at half the amps can run that many locos.
Hmmm I don't know why but I had always thought that the Zephyr couldn't support two way comm but from your comments going with a DT402D and UR92 sure puts an end to that.
It appears that a DT402D plugged into the combination above will provide extended F13-28 sound addressing and stack recall. If so its sounds like the majority of my wish list is eventually covered except the separate programming track.
Oh sheesh, now I'm leaning back the other way torward the Zephyr again. I'm starting to feel sea sick, somebody stop this train I want off.
Is this some sort of competition for you gents.
I need to go review and see what I'm missing by going this route other than separate programming track and initially not having a stack or memory recall until a separate throttle is purchased.
Routes, macros are unavailable unless I go Chief. I think I'll have to come to terms with this, is there a way to add this feature into the above hardware compliment other than connecting a PC or buying a Chief? (EDIT: Never mind the DS64 suggestion has finally registered home.)
jrbernier If I had to start from scratch - I would buy a Zephyr, DT402D radio throttle, UR92 radio receiver & a PR3 to hook the whole thing up to a computer - Home layout is 'wired'!
John, Here are comments based on all you have said:
1. If you want to ease into your system....start with a Zephyr/DT402 and expand from there as needed.
2. The 2-knob DT402 allows easy running of two trains simultaneously, and a third train could be run from the Zephyr.
3. The DT402 gives you a handheld from which you could do everything. And the Z gives you that extra throttle for your daughter.
4. 2.5 amps should be plenty for your N scale layout. A booster could be added if ever needed.
5. When it's time to upgrate the DT402 to radio (and I recommend duplex), you still have the Z's throttle ro run trains while the DT402 is sent in for upgrade.
6. You can run routes from your throttles if you use Digitrax DS64 turnout decoders.
7. You can use the program track without shutting down the main.
8. You will have 28 functions.
9. Digitrax has signalling options.
10. Digitrax offers great tech support and an amazingly helpful website.
Wow, what more could a guy want
I have two matching ancient but fully functional MRC DC power packs today. How well does the Zephyr DC power pack external throttle solution work? I read that I can use up to two DC packs as separate throttles on the Zephyr.
Are there any problems with doing this, shorten life of Zephyr or locos etc?
Are there any advanced programming issues with the Zephyr? I'd hate to buy a decoder with advanced features and not be able to program it.
Our LHS has the Zephyr for $159
The two 'Jump Throttles' work - You have to use the Zephyr throttle to 'assign' your train to them - sort of a pain if you are using that throttle to run a train. Also, no function key control of lights/sounds - just basic throttle. they should not 'shorten' the life of the Zephyr - Remember, they are not feeding power to the DCC track - The command station is 'reading' their settings and sending out commands.
The Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some.
I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place. With the Power Cab you can move around the distance of the cable which is about 10 feet. It makes a difference. Also if a you upgrade to the pro, the controller can be used as a second one for the pro system.
Springfield PA
The bottom line, John: There are pluses and minuses going with either system. You just have to determine which system is going to best meet YOUR needs. I think you're going about it the right way - even if you're feeling a bit woozy from the boat ride.
jcook01 OK so recall stack isn't all that and a bag of chips however remembering the last throttle setting used for all locos in memory would still be a deal closer for me. So unfortunately that still makes the Zephyr a no go and the PowerCab doesn't support other basic features I require. So going the next tier up what's the major differences between the empire builder CPU board and that contained in the Chief? Other than two communication from your layout to the CPU does the Empire have any other limited features? To reiterate the lack of DC support on the NCE as well as separate powered programming track has pushed that lower on the list. Not completely off the radar but I'd prefer to focus on the two upper tiers from Digitrax for the moment. Once again I apologize for hijacking this thread but I hope the author is reading and learning as well. Regards, John
If you don't have the need for more powe,r the Zephyr plus a DT400/402 throttle would do what you want - The 400/402 are encoder based so switching between locos does not cause any speed change. I do not use the throttle knob on my Zephyr very much, nor would I buy a UT4, for that very reason. The Zephyr console throttle is great in a yard where you aren;t switchign between different runnign locos, and if you locate hte unit near the yard throat you won't be moving around much making cuts - it's all right in front of you (remember to pull yor cuts to the clearance point - the brakeman hate having to walk a trainlength to pull the pin ot hook up air hoses!). The Zephyr can run a LOT of trains, 2.5 amps is more than you think. I've had 8 going, half with sound, SImon's done at least that many as well. With N scale you'd almost certainly hit the limit of 12 (I know it says 10, but you can actually select 12 locos at the same time on the Zephyr) before you run out of power.
As for your other question - the Super EMpire Builder with the DB150 does not have a seperate progrm track - it's much like the PowerCab in that respect. In fact the automatic switcher NCE sells for the PowerCab should also work with a DB150 to disconnect the main track when going into program mode so you don;t accidently program every loco. The Super CHief with DCS100 does have the seperate program track output. Other difference is 22 simultaneous locos with the DB150, 120 with the DCS100. Plus a few other extras, like a fast clock (not very accurate - if you're serious about that, either hook up a PC and let JMRI be the time source, or get the Logic Rail Technologies fast clock). Feature-wise the Zephyr is more capable than the DB150 but slightly less than the DCS100. IMO the only purpose for the Super Empire Builder set is if you are interested in purchasing an extra booster and a throttle, the set price is less than the DB150 and a DT402 purchased seperately.
Just in case anyone missed it, our OP came back with a question! Poor chap wanders off for a couple of days and 6 pages later!!!
r.y.a.nso if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work?
An additional cab can select and run any locomotive in your roster, it is not assigned to one specific locomotive. How it works depends on the brand you are interested in. I am thinking that you are leaning towards the NCE system and may be asking about the Cab04, in which case I will bow to the NCE experts here to describe how you select and run a loco on the 2nd cab.