jcook01The Pro would certainly meet all my requirements except for DC operation and from what I've read doesn't support positive feedback to the PC for block detection and the like. At least that's what I beleive I've read here, maybe I've taken something out of context.
dsabourneAre you planning to use your PC right away for block detection and the like ... I don't think you can get that from a Zephyr
dsabourneThe NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive.
Yes, that's definitely WAY backwards. There are more third party products for Loconet then there are other systems combined. If there's a Beta/VHS comparison, Loconet is the VHS in terms of multiple vendor support (but the Beta in terms of technical capabilities). This was brought up previously in this thread somewhere, but ONLY Digitrax Loconet lets the computer interface see EVERYTHING that goes on - when someone changes speed of the loco they are running, when someone operates a turnout, etc. So where the others require some sort of input board to connect to be able to know, for example, turnout position, you don't with Loconet. A virtual control panel in JMRI will 'see' the turnout position regardless if it's changed via said control panel or someone dials up the address on their throttle. Everything happens with that single bus, which you'd run anyway to connect to the throttle plug-ins or the wireless receivers. NCE now has a signal system - but if you look you'll see that it connects to both the cab bus AND it has a secondary bus to link among the signal modules.
In addition to all the commercial Loconet products (which Digitrax advertises right on their own web site! Yes, competitive products linked right on their web site), there are tons of DIY projects of various levels. Some like Hans Deloof's I/O boards, are basically soldering kits, others require a bit more ability as to programming the controller chips. In the early days it was said that Digitrax;'s policy of licensing Loconet would mean it would be doomed - but the only person who seems to have missed out if Keith at CVP who made his wireless throttle sfor his own system as well as Lenx but refused to make a Loconet version because, he claims, of the licensing. I did once mention that to one of the Loconet device vendors listed in the previous message, and without revealing details, learned that this licensing fee is pennies - if paying said fee to Digitrax for a commercial product is going to make or break your business, you need a different business model. In other words - insignificant. They aren't making their money off license fees, it's just to keep everyone honest and cover testing and certification - all the commercial third party products have been tested by Digitrax to be compatible.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Gents,
Thanks for the information, I've made my decision.
Regards, John
Thanks Gents for correcting me ... but know I am just as confused as ever.
NCE PowerCab or Digitrax System of some kind ...
David
Hi
I'm a newbie also looking into what DCC system to go for. I made the mistake of buying the Athearn Big Boy DCC with Sound last week thinking I'd play around on DC for a while then upgrade to DCC in a few years. Trouble is I'm now hooked and want to play with it's full capabilities.
Anyway, I've read all the threads I could find on here plus all the reviews on everything I could find and ended up with the conclusion I was after either the NCE powercab or MRC Prodigy Advance2. Just took a trip to my 2 local hobby stores for some human interaction about the subject, thought I'd share their advice in case it can help someone. The first only stocks the MRC product, both the Prodigy Express and Prodigy Advance2. He said he basically just stocks what he personally hasn't had trouble with. Seems he was talking more about ease of use rather than quality issues. He commented on Digitrax saying you need to be an engineer to figure out how to use it. I'm not an engineer (chemist, so close) and don't feel like stretching my brain too far when really I'm just playing. Anyway, he pretty much sealed me on the MRC product with his personal experience with it. The second hobby store, which is more of a craft store with a stash of train stuff in the back corner didn't stock anything except an old Digitrax Zephyr collecting dust in the back. I told him that unfortunately that was one I'd already ruled out and he wasn't too surprised. He said basically noone wants it as it doesn't come with the hand held unit.
I'm not trying to knock Digitrax, obviously there are plenty of people here who love it, just passing on the opinions of the 2 hobby shops I went to today. Basically my thinking for my decision was I wanted something with a hand held cab, I wanted it to be upgradable, easy to use, access to all 28 possible functions (maybe one day I'll want my train to sound like a cow or whatever strange sounds are in those higher functions). I'm probably never going to have a monstrous layout, but I don't want to have to change completely if I ever (maybe I'll hit that megamillions jackpot one day) do. The MRC Prodigy Express seemed too limiting and wasn't easily upgradable apparently (although you could use it as a cab on a advance system I think). I was turned off the Zephyr as it didn't come with the handheld cab and seems to be a little limited without it, the speed thing when switching trains is a big turn off for me. The Zephyr plus the hand held throttle put the price above my budget. It was then down to the NCE Powercab or the MRC Prodigy Advance2, there are some good discounts available on the internet right now on the MRC so price is similar. The MRC product appears to have more value in it, i.e. does more stuff. It looks like it competes with the NCE PowerPro so the MRC it is. Oh and MRR staff also seem to use it in their loco reviews, I would assume they know a thing or 2.
MRC doesn't seem to have too many fans on this forum, but I think it's the one for me.
Dan
Forgot to say. I'm also planning on trying to run some DC trains on the same layout. It's not going to be huge so I thought I'd wire a second bus for a DC controller so when I wanted to run DC I'd just disconnect the DCC controller from it's bus and connect the DC controller to it's one and off we go. I'm not going to go crazy on attaching the DC line as frequently as the DCC, just a couple of places probably. Think that should be ok.
I would say DON'T DO THAT - it makes it very easy to leave both DC and DCC connected at the same time, with potentially disasterous results where the DCC system is concerned. If you really must have both, use one set of bus and feed wires, and put a DPDT CENTER OFF toggle switch between the DC and DCC systems. Center Off so that there's not chance of a make before break contact that owuld connect both systems together. Either run the entire layout on DC or the entire layotu on DCC, do not mix the two.
As for the "need to be an engineer to understand Digitrax" this is becomign a broken record. There is NOTHING with a Digitrax system that is inherently more complex than any other system. In fact with most of the others you need to set a unique address for each cab you plug in. And some addresses only work with radio cabs, and some only with plug in cabs. Do the proponents of the other systems ever mention that? With Digitrax, you just plug in the new cab and start using it. Nothing to congigure, no need to check a setting on the command station to make sure it allows enough cabs.
The new MRC ad on the back of the latest MR is a real hoot. One step address programmign whereas all the others are 3, 4, 5? I guess it depends on what your definition of 'step' is, because I really doubt the MRC has a magic button that says Address that you press and key in the address you want and press nothing else - that would be one step. By that definition, Digitrax actually probably has the fewest 'steps' since when you hit the Program button the first thing it assumes is you are programming an address. Pick 2 or 4 digit, type in the number (or use the dials) press enter, and confirm with a Yes. Done. Doesn't sound like it needs an engineer to me. And MRC claims they have only a small manual, not the huge book the others do - perhaps because the other brands like Digitrax and NCE actually tell you IN DETAIL about everything their systems can do, MRC seems to be hiding something - or maybe it just doesn't have as many features. Wow, MRC has the basic operations listed on the back of the handheld - that's a nice feature to have it there for you, but I've seen Digitrax and NCE people do the same, you just have to print out the list yourself and tape it on the back. Hardly Earth-shatteringly innovative. I'll give MRC props for doing it, they probably saw users of the other brnads making cheat sheets like that long before MRC had a worthwhile DCC system so they decided to incorporate it as a feature, something the others haven't thought to do.
Dan:
As you can see on my posts ... I'm leaning towards a NCE PowerCab.
Dan,
Looking at just two dealers(one with a Digitrax Zephyr who is clueless, and a second one who is pushing just MRC) sends up red flags to me.
First, you need to understand what DCC can do, and what you want out of DCC. As much as you are thinking 'simple' and 'ease of use' - You need to find out what you really want to do with DCC. I have used just about every DCC system available(except for some of the exotic European stuff like Zimo).
MRC - Basic system, Very nice throttles. They lack a JMRI interface to a home computer. You may not think this is important right now, but programming anything other than the basic engine address is best done via a computer. MRC has a proprietary interface that only works with their software to their decoders(some of the worst failure rates out of the box).
Digitrax - The 'Big Dog'. Expandable systems, lots of stuff will work with their system The 'cons' are the original manuals and the old DT100/DT300 throttles. To many button sequences to push. The DT400 series throttles are very good to use.
NCE - Another super system with lots of expansion, and really great throttles. Full JMRI support to a home computer.
Lenz - Good H/W, but somewhat 'dated' systems at this point. JMRI capable as well. They started the DCC revolution.
Easy DCC - A sort of 'DIY' kit system that is good, but again is somewhat 'dated' at this point. JMRI computer capable.
Bachmann - EZ Command & Dynamis. EZ Command will run a DCC engine as long as the address is a single digit, and there is no programming capabilities for Configuration Variables - No computer interface. The Dynamis is a little more high end - I have never used one.
Note that I have made a big point about a computer interface. I have lost track of how many time folks have told me that they really have no interest/need to hook a computer up to their trains. Without fail, the same folks tell me 6 months later that they want to know how to hook up a computer. Once they have seen JMRI/Decoder Pro used to 'program' an engine vs pushing buttons on their throttle - They are sold. Both the NCE 'Power Cab' system and the Digitrax 'Zephyr' system are expandable and can be hooked up to a home computer running JMRI(which is FREE).
Most LHS's I have been in have been pretty clueless about the DCC they are selling. Our LHS had some Digitrax stuff and I helped them set up a demo test track and within 2 months they were actually selling at least one Digitrax system every week. Caboose Hobbies in Denver has a sample of several systems/throttles with some sales folks who can actually demonstrate the product. Talk to some other local modelers about what they use if there really is no LHS support in your area. I would not want you to spend over $200 on a 'dead-end' system.
I have a Digitrax system - and love it. One of my best friends has a NCE system. We had a layout hop/tour Friday evening/Saturday morning - 7 layouts:
4 Digitrax
1 NCE
2 DC
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
dsabourneAs you can see on my posts ... I'm leaning towards a NCE PowerCab. David
I think the controversy between NCE and Digitraxx hinge's on what you get used to and past experience. I had a Zephyr and it was a disaster.After sending it back for the fourth time I ask and received my money back. I plugged in my Power Cab and never looked back. The first Zephyr smoked, second one worked a while and quit, third was erratic. I use Power Cab with Decoder Pro and if I want to program a loco I flip a switch that directs tower to a test track and not to the main track.
I like the programing on the Power Cab for quick change's.
My thoughts.
Lee
yankee flyerI think the controversy between NCE and Digitraxx hinge's on what you get used to and past experience. I had a Zephyr and it was a disaster.After sending it back for the fourth time I ask and received my money back. I plugged in my Power Cab and never looked back.
I agree, just like you there are others that have sent back Power Cabs and gone to Digitrax, these are all small companies and not everything is perfect the first time. In the case of my friend they gave up waiting for a booster that would work with an auto-reverser. This is now fixed by NCE with the latest booster, but took rather a long time, or at least too long for my friend.
But truthfully I think that the real root of the controversy stems from the fact that the Digitrax system fairly quickly became the dominant DCC system in the USA. The mantra of "Buy Digitrax, everyone else does" was very common indeed. NCE in the mean time, builds an excellent device that most certainly was, and some would say still is, easier to use, and for sure had better documentation.
To me the NCE crowd assumed the role of the smarmy Apple commercial guy, happy to knock the "Big Dog" at any and every opportunity. You know the mantra......"Need to be an engineer to use, .....have to use single handed as the other hand is holding the manual..... is it really wireless when you have to plug in to acquire a locomotive.......etc....etc...."
The thing is, that this stuff was right to a degree, but in most cases is rooted in the past rather than in the current state of things. Both NCE and Digitrax and constantly evolving, developing new product and enhancing older products, like improving documentation for example.
Digitrax has a much broader DCC product range, that is able to provide more comprehensive solutions and complex systems. NCE is working hard to catch up expanding its line of DCC add-ons and accessories. Each of these manufacturers works hard to provide a quality product and both support their products well. We are really very fortunate to have 2 domestic manufacturers dedicated to the market to this degree.
In then end, each of us make a choice based on personal wants and needs. Opinions and hearsay based on an old outdated mantra, don't do anyone any good. I think it is best to deal in facts, and by gaining a good understanding of what these potentially complex system can do for you and honing in on the features that best meet your needs.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Thanks everyone. Randy, that's a fantastic suggestion to use the switch to toggle between DC and DCC, I'll do that.
I was thinking about PC connectivity. I had gone off the MRC product as I'd heard it had no connectivity at all. Then I found it was capable with their own proprietry software.
I did find it hard to choose between MRC and NCE and was fully prepared to buy the powercab if I found it on my travels yesterday. I was eventually persuaded to the MRC by the hobby store guy and the discounts available right now for the Advance2 system. I'm now re-thinking this. I've found another hobby store through the NCE website that is local to me so I'm going to take a trip there this afternoon.
It's kind of hard to tell what's opinion and hearsay and what's fact when researching all this. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's finding the more I read and hear the more confused I get! I still can't pursuade myself to look further into Digitrax. The fact still remains to get what I want I would have to pay more for the starter for the Zephyr and a handheld control.
If this guy has the NCE Powercab this afternoon I will probably buy it from him. Otherwise I'll probably order online.
Thanks again.
CoopedI still can't pursuade myself to look further into Digitrax. The fact still remains to get what I want I would have to pay more for the starter for the Zephyr and a handheld control.
Dan, that is just fine, the basic configuration does not meet your particular needs and you don't perceive any value in spending a bit more to get the dual throttle. The process of research and elimination is working for you. It is not the decision I would have made, but our needs are not the same. I know which I would choose of the 2 systems remaining on your list, and frankly I am pleased to hear that you are going to see a DCC dealer that carries more than just the MRC system. BTW, do the Digitrax guy a favor and tell him to list the Z on E-bay, he will sell it in a heartbeat, they don't last long in that environment, of course if he wants the $199 list price, he will have a hard time selling it. There are many web places to get it for a lot less than that.
simon1966To me the NCE crowd assumed the role of the smarmy Apple commercial guy, happy to knock the "Big Dog" at any and every opportunity.
Hmmmmmmm, interesting that you should say this. My recent perception is that the Digitrax owners seem to get very defensive when any comparisons are made. But then I'm surrounded by a bunch of happy NCE users. Must be the environment.
maxman simon1966To me the NCE crowd assumed the role of the smarmy Apple commercial guy, happy to knock the "Big Dog" at any and every opportunity. Hmmmmmmm, interesting that you should say this. My recent perception is that the Digitrax owners seem to get very defensive when any comparisons are made. But then I'm surrounded by a bunch of happy NCE users. Must be the environment.
That's about right on, considering most of the things Apple says about PCs are utterly untrue
Ok, the deed is done. He didn't have any powercabs in stock, just a power pro so he's ordered it for me. I could have ordered it online for maybe $20 or $30 less, but I figured this guy could be a good resource for me in the future so gave him the sale. Strange, he's literally 5 minutes drive from me and I never knew he was there!
He also only carries one brand, gave me a story of starting with Digitrax, then going to something I'd never heard of and can't remember what he said, then went to NCE when the guy who ran the middle one died. Apparently NCE and whoever the middle one was were pretty much the same so maybe someone who knows more than me will know who it was.
I think you will find that most Digitrax users are not in the least bit defensive that there are groups of happy NCE users. I for one welcome that, as strong competition in the market place does everyone good. If NCE and others were not nipping at the heels of Digitrax there would be no real incentive to continue to develop and improve the system. Does anyone really believe that Digitrax would have bothered to come out with Duplex radio, when the simplex worked so well, if it were not for competitive pressure?
Conversely, do you really think NCE would have come out with the Power Cab, had not Digitrax been so incredibly successful at defining the entry level DCC market with the Zephyr?
Things do get defensive when the old tired mantras are trotted out that are in direct contrast to the Digitrax users own experience. That is when you will read and hear howls of protest.
I think it's funny to watch these post with several getting defensive of their choice.
There are others that will use a few key words to get things riled up which I find even funnier.
Springfield PA
CoopedApparently NCE and whoever the middle one was were pretty much the same so maybe someone who knows more than me will know who it was.
That would have been Wangrow System One.
That's the one! Still waiting for delivery, I'll report back when it arrives and how I get on with it.
Ok, the Powercab arrived today. Plugged it in and off we go. even programmed a couple of loco numbers and tried changing start voltage. Very happy.
Cooped Ok, the Powercab arrived today. Plugged it in and off we go. even programmed a couple of loco numbers and tried changing start voltage. Very happy. Dan
Congratulations. I think you'll be very happy.
Regards
Good for you Dan, welcome to the wonderful world of DCC. I hope you have many years of enjoyment out of the system.
tstage The command station, booster, and throttle are rolled up into one. So, if you disconnect the Power Cab from your layout, it will shut down the layout. However, it comes with a 7' long cable that allows you some freedom to move around your layout, albeit tethered. Tom
The command station, booster, and throttle are rolled up into one. So, if you disconnect the Power Cab from your layout, it will shut down the layout. However, it comes with a 7' long cable that allows you some freedom to move around your layout, albeit tethered.
Tom
Wouldn't you be able to replace the 7' cable with a longer one to allow even greater freedom to move around the layout?
Alton Junction
Yes you would, Rich. You could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to. Or, you could go with the Smart Booster and a couple of UTP panels, too. Obviously, the ultimate in freedom would be to go wireless.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Congrats dan and good luck with it. You'll get use to it quickly. If you wind up with a dcc sound loco it has a method to play the horn/whistle. Also try running in yard mode if switching. The thumb wheel will move the loco in both fwd and reverse without having to hit the direction switch.
Familiarize yourself with the emergency stop function. One push will stop the loco you are addressed for. Hitting it 3 times fast will shut down the track and all loco's.
tstageYou could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to.
Are we sure about this? The PowerCab instructions suggest that the track bus wire should be #18 for runs to 25 feet, and #16 for runs to 50 feet. I don't think the flat wire has that heavy wire gage...or does it?
The cable supplies track power through the Powercab. Adding longer cables will contribute to voltage drop. 12 feet may be OK but 40 would definitely be pushing your luck.
maxman tstageYou could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to. Are we sure about this? The PowerCab instructions suggest that the track bus wire should be #18 for runs to 25 feet, and #16 for runs to 50 feet. I don't think the flat wire has that heavy wire gage...or does it?
maxman,
So, are you saying that 7 feet is it?
If true, that would be a real disadvantage for the Power Cab.
Rich