I'll also add that if, down the road, you intend to add signals and block detection - with Digitrax the infrastructure is already in palce. The same bus that connects the throttles to the command station also carries the signals for detectors and signal controllers. ALso, you aren't limited to Digitrax components, there are several manufacturers who sell devices certified by Digitrax to work on their Loconet bus. Most of them are actually linked BY DIGITRAX on their web site - that's right, Digitrax lists and provides web page links to people who sell competing products!
There is one other advantage of gthe Digitrax Loconet that is not provided by ANY other DCC vendor - EVERYTHING that happens on the Loconet - comands from throttles, detection events from a block detector, commands to stationary decoders, etc. is echoed on the bus. Thus a computer interfaced to the system can not only control things, it can monitor and/or intercept what each operator is doing. You can see the throttle settign of every selected loco, what direction it is going, and what functions are activated. You can intercept a command from a throttle and do other things - like NCE's macro capability on steroids. One of my uses of this feature is to provide for local turnout control AND a centralized dispatcher. When operating alone, buttons ont he fascia will oeprate the motorized turnouts. When oeprating with a full crew with a dispatcher in place, the CTC turnouts will not operate when the buttons are pushed. How this works is simple - the buttons will be connected to input cards, so they generate a loconet message. With the computer off, the stationary decoders will respond to this message and operate the switch motor. With the computer on, the computer will see the message from the buttons, and ONLY if the dispatcher has actived the local power switch for that turnout will the switch motor move. Otherwise, it will only move when the DS clears the route and presses the code start button. At first my CTC panel will be virtual but someday I hope to build a 'real' one with toggles and lights.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
You know what I think it is......On the surface the NCE throttles are easier to pick up, look at and operate for a total newbie. It takes a little longer to get going with a Digitrax throttle, but once you know the basic philosophy of the DT throttle it becomes very intuitive to use. As the saying goes, first impressions etc, but IMO this perceived advantage of being easier to use disappears within the first 5-10 minutes of use for the vast majority of users. There is a tremendous amount of mileage made out of this perceived difference in ease of use. Which results in surprised comments when it is discovered that the DT throttles are actually rather nice things to use. Personally, I think that the "ease of use" argument is way over played. If it was the most important feature, we would all be using EZ commands or Prodigy systems.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
mobilman44Hi again! Gotta interject something here..... In determining whether to go NCE or Digitrax, I found the NCE hand held much more appealing than the Digitrax DT400. BUT, I ended up going with the Digitrax in spite of that perceived shortcoming. However, in using the DT400s, I have found them to be pretty user friendly - which I admit was a surprise to me. Mobilman44
Gotta interject something here..... In determining whether to go NCE or Digitrax, I found the NCE hand held much more appealing than the Digitrax DT400. BUT, I ended up going with the Digitrax in spite of that perceived shortcoming. However, in using the DT400s, I have found them to be pretty user friendly - which I admit was a surprise to me.
Mobilman44
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Hi again!
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
nbrodar rrinker [ So uh, just which is the 'full service' throttle with CVP? NONE of them allow programming, they are all engineer cabs only. At least they finally made one with an LCD so you can see what loco number you punched in. This is where actually handling the hardware is important. I used both a Digitrax DT300 and NCE "hammer head" and found I don't like the large full service handhelds period. To me they just didn't "feel" right. As to encoders vs pots...I don't like encoders either. Again, the endless spinning of the encoders didn't feel right. These are only my choices, based on my usage and impressions of the equipment. Not every does or should share my opinions. Think of how boring that would be. I think it must be your friend, I haven't broken any of my RJ plugs yet. I'd also probably throw something if I had to wire my panels with coax and F connectors insteadof nice simple flat telephone wire. Yes, that is what I believe. I now know many others that have no problems with their RJ plugs. I do feel your pain about running coax, so I laid out a little extra coin, and bought my coax preconnectored (if that's a word ). Nick
rrinker [ So uh, just which is the 'full service' throttle with CVP? NONE of them allow programming, they are all engineer cabs only. At least they finally made one with an LCD so you can see what loco number you punched in.
[
So uh, just which is the 'full service' throttle with CVP? NONE of them allow programming, they are all engineer cabs only. At least they finally made one with an LCD so you can see what loco number you punched in.
This is where actually handling the hardware is important. I used both a Digitrax DT300 and NCE "hammer head" and found I don't like the large full service handhelds period. To me they just didn't "feel" right. As to encoders vs pots...I don't like encoders either. Again, the endless spinning of the encoders didn't feel right. These are only my choices, based on my usage and impressions of the equipment. Not every does or should share my opinions. Think of how boring that would be.
I think it must be your friend, I haven't broken any of my RJ plugs yet. I'd also probably throw something if I had to wire my panels with coax and F connectors insteadof nice simple flat telephone wire.
Yes, that is what I believe. I now know many others that have no problems with their RJ plugs. I do feel your pain about running coax, so I laid out a little extra coin, and bought my coax preconnectored (if that's a word ).
Nick
But you didn't compare apples to apples. NCE and Digitrax engineer throttles that are most like the CVP throttles are smaller AND have a giant knob. And are potentiometers, not encoders, which is why I don't have a UT-4. ANd why I stopped using the Zephyt console as soon as I had a DT400, when running alone I switch between different running trains all the time. Tough with a pot.
I don't see how you could say a DT300 is 'large'. A DT400, or the NCE - the NCE hammerhead is HUGE compared even to a DT400 - but the DT300 is small. ANd confusing because there are so few buttons so they have to be shifted for multiple functions. Dt400 -1 button, 1 function, no key combinations for anything. More is not always more complicated - more can simplyfy by eliminatign having to elarn which combination fo keys to press for a given operation.
I would like to Thank You for all the information you provided. A lot of it was very helpful and have narrowed my choices down to 2 systems. I am also glad to see the passion you have for your hobby and how much you want to help someone new. Thank you again.
I bought the NCE Power Pro - R system about 3 years ago because from my research it had the best wireless system at the time. I have been very happy with it and use it on my 14x23 ft layout which is under construction. The LCD window provides a nice visual feedback that I like. I see other systems have improved/added wireless systems and have LCD windows as well. If you can, go to some train shows and check out the different vendors.
I love the wireless, it really simplifies the wiring - just a power bus with feeders to the track.
Enjoy
Paul
kcole4001Does no one recommend MRCs Prodigy Advanced systems? And if not, why? Most references tend to be simply "I use another system" rather than specifically what, if anything, is wrong with MRCs design.
Now, here is what I don't like about MRC:
1. Not compatible with JMRI's Decoder Pro. This is major for me and one of the reasons I no longer use MRC.
2. Expensive extension plates. Their price makes no sense to me. There are ways to build your own for very low cost but it's a shame one has to resort to this. Also, with the PA2 I frequently had the plug pull free of the extension plate. It just wouldn't lock in tight enough.
3. I don't like the flat cord on the tethered throttle, but here again, one can buy coiled cords (but not from MRC).
I am now a very happy user of Digitax Duplex radio and it's the most enjoyable system I have ever used. MRC Wireless would be my second choice, if only it was compatible with JMRI.
rrinker[ So uh, just which is the 'full service' throttle with CVP? NONE of them allow programming, they are all engineer cabs only. At least they finally made one with an LCD so you can see what loco number you punched in.
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Phoebe VetMy position when this issue comes up every few weeks, is to keep others from making the same mistake. I will continue to recommend that a better path is to spend a few more dollars and buy an entry level system from one of the major brands and ask that all important question; "Is this system expandable as my knowledge grows?".
Phoebe Vet,
I think the important thing is to help other determine what their needs are (or will be). Under certain circumstances the E-Z Command would be the right system for someone.
In my case, I had a limited amount of $$$ and wanted to get into DCC. I was fully aware of the E-Z Commands "limitations" but that was okay, because I was just getting my feeet wet: both with DCC and my first layout.
At the time I only had two locomotives: An Athearn Genesis 2-8-2 Mike and a Proto 2000 S-1 switcher. I found the E-Z Command for $52 and purchased the two decoders for my locomotives. Even with S&H, I was able to have DCC and outfit my tiny fleet for ~$100. With that start I jumped into DCC and never looked back.
The E-Z Command served me well for a year and allowed me time to research a DCC system that would serve my needs better. And I even recouped some of the cost of the E-Z Command by selling it to Ken, who got another 3 years out of it. (And, if my recollection serves me well, Ken's still using it on his bench.)
So, when choosing the "right" DCC system, it depends on someone's circumstances, goals, and wants - i.e. present and future.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
nbrodarI had the opportunity to to operate both Digitrax and NCE before making my choice.  I didn't like the size of the full service handhelds and the tiny control knobs. I like BIG knobs.  Also, at the time I was weary of each units RJ plugs. A buddy of mine running Digitrax kept breaking them.  Although, now I think that had more to do with him rather then the plugs themselves.
nbrodar All good advice... I had the opportunity to to operate both Digitrax and NCE before making my choice. I didn't like the size of the full service handhelds and the tiny control knobs. I like BIG knobs. Also, at the time I was weary of each units RJ plugs. A buddy of mine running Digitrax kept breaking them. Although, now I think that had more to do with him rather then the plugs themselves. My LHS supports both Digitrax and NCE, but, I've never had a problem getting customer support from CVP long distance. Between the two, the LHS pushes NCE as the most user friendly. I happen to agree, but like CVP even better. Nick
All good advice...
I had the opportunity to to operate both Digitrax and NCE before making my choice. I didn't like the size of the full service handhelds and the tiny control knobs. I like BIG knobs. Also, at the time I was weary of each units RJ plugs. A buddy of mine running Digitrax kept breaking them. Although, now I think that had more to do with him rather then the plugs themselves.
My LHS supports both Digitrax and NCE, but, I've never had a problem getting customer support from CVP long distance. Between the two, the LHS pushes NCE as the most user friendly. I happen to agree, but like CVP even better.
It will just go round and round but try using a throttle with an encoder knob instead of a protentiometer and witness the finer degree of control AND the ability to select between multiple locos without the speeds changing. But the Digitrax and NCE engineer cabs have big knobs if that's what you really want - though I find the Digitrax knobs turn easily with my thumb - plus just press on it to reverse. Couldn;t be easier.
The ease of use argument for basic operatiosn always gets me - they key sequence for NCE and Digitrax is exactly the same to select and operate a loco. And pretty much all the others except the Bachmann. Operating functions is exactly the same - want F4, press the number 4. Peopel also say Digitrax ha sno quick start guide - really? Maybe they are lookign at the manual for their first systems over 10 years ago or soemthign, but all current systems and even the previous generation, the manuals start with a section that says "connect this wire here, that wire there, then press these buttons and your train should move". Easy.
Ken:
As you by now are well aware, my sole complaint about the EZCommand system is it's lack of an upgrade path. I am not a fan of following a dead end path to save money. To me it's like taking extra long steps to save wear on your $20 shoes and splitting your $40 pants.
When I bought my EZCommand system I knew absolutely nothing about DCC. I didn't even know what a CV was. I bought something cheap to explore the concept and to decide if it was right for me. I now believe that it was a mistake and that it actually impeded my ability to explore DCC because as I learned new things, the EZCommand did not allow me to try out my new knowledge and there was nothing I could add to the EZCommand to add the new thing I wanted to try. I had to throw it out and start over.
My position when this issue comes up every few weeks, is to keep others from making the same mistake. I will continue to recommend that a better path is to spend a few more dollars and buy an entry level system from one of the major brands and ask that all important question; "Is this system expandable as my knowledge grows?".
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
zippy376 I am new to the train world and am building a new lay out. I hope to run about 4 engines or more when finished. What would be the best system for now and for the future if i plan to expand? I have read so much i feel like i am buying a car from a dealer. Thank You.
I am new to the train world and am building a new lay out. I hope to run about 4 engines or more when finished. What would be the best system for now and for the future if i plan to expand? I have read so much i feel like i am buying a car from a dealer. Thank You.
I bought the NCE system five years ago on the advice of the guys at my LHS who could have sold me any system but said NCE was the best, the most reliable, and the easiest system to use. They were right and I have never looked back.
Two important considerations in this regard. There is an excellent forum and support system dedicated to NCE on Yahoo. The help and advice that I receive there is invaluable. Also, the customer service system at NCE is superb, and when you call, a knowledgeable person answers the phone directly.
Alton Junction
Phoebe Vet, one of the reasons I keep bring up the E-Z is cost. New they can go for around $50.00 theses days. Mine served me well for 3 years. Far as out growing it, yep that could happen. But I still had a lot of fun with it and never sorry I bought it.
You got to start some where and the E-Z is not bad. All so remember Zippy never said a prices range. If he or she said around $250.00 I would have not brought up the E-Z.
E Z Ken!
I hate Rust
The good news is that there are really not any "bad" dcc systems. They all work as advertised and perform a decent job. If the system you choose meets your needs now and in the future then you will likely be happy with it. Support from the main manufacturers is generally good and the support offered by many of the retailers is excellent as well.
So what to do? The most important thing is to think about what you want to do with the system now and then also how you might expand in the future. Defining these criteria will may eliminate some systems from consideration, not because they are bad, but because they don't offer a feature you need.
With luck, your criteria shortlist will point you in the direction of a couple of systems that are in your budget.
Others have already suggested some of the questions above. Work through them and sort out in your own mind what is important.
Have used NCE since it became a system around 1990. I like it, it is not expensive or not cheap, kinda inbetween. It is expandable, easy to learn and use. The company has been responsive when I needed help or parts or whatever. The Powercab can be an entry level system, and then be incorporated into the NCE PowerPro system as an extra cab when you need expansion.
I chose NCE because of features, at the time I was using one of the pre DCC command control systems, which worked pretty well but was limited and not expandable. No matter how small your layout is today, if you stay in the hobby, it will get bigger and more complex in the future.
Bob
Thank you Randy, that pretty much clears up my questions regarding MRC.
I too have placed a lot of faith in my old Tech II, so I always wondered why such a solid, dependable DC company should be so backwards thinking in the 'new' technology era of DCC, which seems to be getting to be pretty universally accepted as the best way to enjoy the hobby. Not that there's anything wrong with DC operation, but DCC just opens up so many more possibilities.
Though, I do see in various articles that the MR staff do use the Prodigy Advanced system, but I see few opiniions from actual users. I don't usually like when companies use proprietary software and the like, compatability with the industry standard is pretty important.
I do recall seeing posts about problems with thier decoders, hopefully they cleared that up, but even so, I will probably go with Tsunami or similar sound equipped decoders when the time comes, it's something you don't really want to have any regrets about after installing, so you might as well go for the top of the line from the outset.
Now now.. The fact that Cudaken and I disagree on the EZCommand does not mean I think any less of him. We just have different opinions. For what it's worth, in my youth I always wanted a 'cuda or it's sistership the Challenger R/T.
Phoebe VetEvery time this question comes up, Cudaken leads off singing the praises of the Bachmann EZCommand and most (but not all) of us say get something expandable, which EZCommand is not.
Darn that Cuda Ken. Always spouting his mouth off before he thinks.
How much money you got?
My club uses NCE on their $100,000 dollar layout. There's a reason they use NCE. Simple, reliable and easy to use. Their decoders are the best too. Thats all I buy.
Digitrax & MRC's Prodigy Advance are popular too.
The reson most of us don;t recommend MRC is a combination of their poor past history, poor quality decoders, and high add-on costs. Recently is wa smentioned they dropped the price of their computer interface significantly - perhaps they are listening, or just listening to the (l;ack of) sales. They have an arrogant attitude that whatever they make is the best and have no intention of workign with what everyoen else uses - mainly the FREE JMRI software. Instead they have their own proprietary software that, surprise, only contains decoder information for their own decoders. JMRI supports pretty much every known decoder, and works with all other systems that have some form of computer interface - meanign basically every other DCC brand on the market.
In another recent post, someone with an MRC system puchased one of their cab plug-in panels. They list for more than double what the same component costs for Digitrax or NCE, and when the person opened it up to see what was inside, it is ismply a bunch of RJ45 jacks wired together - no other components. Yet the Digitrax ones for half the price include the circuitry to supply extra DC power to the throttles, and also monitor track status. Come on MRC, what gives?
What's crazy is MRC always made good DC supplies. Maybe not the best - I have a Tech II that just keeps on chugging along, but I've opened it up to look inside and it's a mess of components just solderd to one another, like I made it myself and didn't use a circuit board for the parts. But I've seen the inside of a somewhat contemporary Troller and it's no better. The Tech II has always been solid and reliable since the day I bought it. I still have my doubts about newer MRC stuff.
Does no one recommend MRCs Prodigy Advanced systems? And if not, why? Most references tend to be simply "I use another system" rather than specifically what, if anything, is wrong with MRCs design.
They seem pretty good functionally for smaller to medium sized layouts with few operators. I plan to operate alone for 99% of the time, and these systems seem pretty equal to most other more expensive systems such as NCE and Digitrax.
Personally I prefer the handheld throttles to have a fairly large wheel or knob instead of sliders or using buttons, a more basic tactile kind of tool.
I think the easier question to answer is what system not to buy, As all of the them pretty much do the same thing just in different ways.
My thing would be to contact probably one of the most knowledgeable DCC dealers in the hobby Tony's Train Exchance in Vermont or look them up on the web.http://www.tonystrains.com/index.html
Thye asked me a lot of questions like are you very computer savy, do you like playing videop games, do you like things simple, are you planning on expantion etc. The guys there are some of the most knowledgeable people I have ever spoken to regarding DCC, they have yet to answer any questions I've ever had.
On the short list of what not to buy in my o/p Atlas Master DCC system , Bachmann EZ command MRC's Prodigy Express. All in my opinion are limited in too many ways. If there iss one constant in model railroading it's that we are always looking fro ways grow in the hobby improve or upgrade our layouts. These 3 systems in my o/p just don't have what it takes compared to other manufactures or even in MRC's case a better model like the Advance Squared version for all not that much more money. One other point is also if yo have any friends that runn DCC and you operate on each others layouts what do they run? Keep that in mind for support form someone you know who has what you run and also saves you some money having to buy another handset. I know as I have three different ones two for other peoples layouts and several of another brand for my layout.. Figure that mess out.
This question has been asked a lot on this Forum over the years, and most folks will swear by what they have - be it Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, MRC, etc., etc.
I actually asked this question last fall, as I was rebuilding an HO layout and converting to DCC at the same time. The replies came in fast and furious, and reminded my of asking a group of car - nuts which brand they preferred - Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, Dodge, etc. Anyway, I ended up with a Digitax Super Chief with second booster and two PSX4 circuit breakers. But, I could have easily gone with NCE too.
The thing is, you can't go wrong with a major player in the DCC field, although there are other considerations that may help you decide. For instance: which system do your friends have?, which system does your LHS support?, how much money is available for a system?, etc., etc.
Good luck!
Every time this question comes up, Cudaken leads off singing the praises of the Bachmann EZCommand and most (but not all) of us say get something expandable, which EZCommand is not.
If you get the EZCommand it is only a matter of time before you realize that you got what you paid for; a simple reliable yet primitive system that you have out gown. I strongly recommend that you buy a system that can grow with you. If you are new to DCC there are many capabilities that will cause you to say "why would I want to do that?". Trust me, the day will come when you will say "I wish I could do that". Notice that even Cudaken has moved up to a better system, as did I. My EZCommand hit the junk box long ago. I currently run the Digitrax Super Chief. If I had started with the Zephyr, it would still be working along side the upgraded system. I am a believer in systems that can grow as opposed to throwing one away and starting over.
The best suggestion I can make is find a club or another user and try a few systems out. Then buy the one you like best.
There has been some good advice given so far. Ultimately there is no one right answer but some things to consider are whether you will have other folks coming over and wanting to bring their throttles ? Are there other people who live in your area that you will be relying on for help ? If so, what system(s) do they run ? Think about expandability and futures. Will you want a computer interface, signalling, wireless or other functions in the future ? If so, at least consider them now and how you will add these functions in the future without tossing components away in order to upgrade. Folks here can help with the questions. I personally chose the Digitrax Super Chief Radio system and have added quite a bit to it (i.e. additional boosters, computer interface etc...)
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
This is the Ford/Chevy/Dodge debate...
Personally, I like CVP's EasyDCC system. It has a compact hand unit, that uses audio plugs to connect to the throttle bus.:
As well, as some innovative boosters and circuit breakers. I also think their documentation and customer support is the best out there. In addition, EasyDCC can program even the most temperamental decoders. That said, EasyDCC does not support address 0, so you can not run DC locomotives. It's also one of the more expensive systems, and the components must be purchased direct from CVP.