I have a cross-over between two power districts that is causing my locos to short when they cross the gap and I am now almost bald because of pulling my hair out trying to find where the problem is. Hopefully someone here can help me with this.
I have four power districts, controlled by two boosters, set up on my layout that is currently under construction. The layout is basically a double track oval with a few switching areas inside of the oval. The four power districts are; outer track on the oval with yard, right side of the inner oval track and right side switching areas, left side of the inner oval track and left side switching areas, and the switch machines.
DCS100 (5 amp) connected to a PS-2 circuit breaker (Tony’s Trains) divides power between the left and right sides of the inner portions of the layout.
DB200 (8 amp) connected to a PSX-2 circuit breaker (DCC Specialties) divides power between the outer oval with the yard and the turnout machines.
I have an opposing switch on each track that forms a cross-over from the inner to the outer track. All turnouts are Peco electro-frog powered by a Hare-Tortoise combo. I have double gapped the rails in between the switches and the gaps are offset by 1/4 inch
When I run a loco across this gap I am getting a short. If the loco is run from outer loop to inner loop the DB200 shorts, if run from inner to outer loop the DCS100 shorts. Yes, the shorts apparently by-pass the circuit breakers and the booster sounds with the short, not sure why.
HELP????? My experience is very limited here. I’ve been n-scaling for about four years now and this is my second layout that I am building but my first with more than one power district. The power districts are new to my layout also. I started laying track before I bought the second booster and the circuit breakers. All track and switch machines were wired to the DCS100 on a common bus and with this arrangement all worked fine. I was able to run locos across this gap with no problems. The shorts did not start until I installed the other booster (DB200) and the circuit breakers.
The first thing I thought of was did I reverse the bus wires going/coming from the breakers and no, they are not, red goes to red and black goes to black.
Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated, thanks.
Tom
spearoThe power districts are new to my layout also. I started laying track before I bought the second booster and the circuit breakers. All track and switch machines were wired to the DCS100 on a common bus and with this arrangement all worked fine. I was able to run locos across this gap with no problems. The shorts did not start until I installed the other booster (DB200) and the circuit breakers.
Tom,
Just to clarify: Were the new power districts installed/in place/tested when everything was "wired to the DCS100 on a common bus and with this arrangement all worked fine"? Or, were these added after testing your wiring with the DCS100 but prior to the addition of the DB200/circuit breakers? Since you say that your problems didn't start until you installed your new booster/breakers, logic dictates that's where you problem lies.
Tom, how big is your layout? How many locomotives do you plan on running at a time? The reason for asking is that, to me - you've got a horrendous amount of amperage powering an N-scale layout. Even 4 power districts and operating turnouts, your 5-amp booster should be quite adequate for the job.
I'm no electrical guru but...is it possible that the 8-amp booster is tripping the 5-amp booster when the train is crossing the gap? Does each booster need to be the same amperage?
My ...
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Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Do you have an electrical test meter? If so, set the meter to AC volts at whatever scale range is above track voltage (maybe 200 or 300 volts). Connect one lead from the meter to the track on one side of the gap, and attach the second lead to the same rail on the other side of the gap. You should read zero volts. If you do, that means that both rails are in phase (or have the same polarity if you will) and your problem lies elsewhere. If you read a voltage across the gap, you have a track connection swapped.
Checking this one item will eliminate a common culprit.
spearo I have a cross-over between two power districts that is causing my locos to short when they cross the gap and I am now almost bald because of pulling my hair out trying to find where the problem is. Hopefully someone here can help me with this. I have four power districts, controlled by two boosters, set up on my layout that is currently under construction. The layout is basically a double track oval with a few switching areas inside of the oval. The four power districts are; outer track on the oval with yard, right side of the inner oval track and right side switching areas, left side of the inner oval track and left side switching areas, and the switch machines. DCS100 (5 amp) connected to a PS-2 circuit breaker (Tony’s Trains) divides power between the left and right sides of the inner portions of the layout. DB200 (8 amp) connected to a PSX-2 circuit breaker (DCC Specialties) divides power between the outer oval with the yard and the turnout machines. I have an opposing switch on each track that forms a cross-over from the inner to the outer track. All turnouts are Peco electro-frog powered by a Hare-Tortoise combo. I have double gapped the rails in between the switches and the gaps are offset by 1/4 inch When I run a loco across this gap I am getting a short. If the loco is run from outer loop to inner loop the DB200 shorts, if run from inner to outer loop the DCS100 shorts. Yes, the shorts apparently by-pass the circuit breakers and the booster sounds with the short, not sure why. HELP????? My experience is very limited here. I’ve been n-scaling for about four years now and this is my second layout that I am building but my first with more than one power district. The power districts are new to my layout also. I started laying track before I bought the second booster and the circuit breakers. All track and switch machines were wired to the DCS100 on a common bus and with this arrangement all worked fine. I was able to run locos across this gap with no problems. The shorts did not start until I installed the other booster (DB200) and the circuit breakers. The first thing I thought of was did I reverse the bus wires going/coming from the breakers and no, they are not, red goes to red and black goes to black. Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated, thanks. Tom
If you've tried reversing the wires coming off the breaker to the track on one side of the gap then the next thing to look at is a possible Loconet railsync problem. Generally those don't cause a dead shorting but a quick short and the the booster or breaker recovers, depending on what tripped out. Do you have a Loconet directly connecting the two boosters together or are there other Loconet devices in the middle ? If there are other devices, remove them and try connecting the two directly together with a Loconet cable and ensure that the cable is straight through. If the Loconet cable already connects them directly together, inspect the cable and ensure it is a straight through cable and the pins aren't flipped. I'd also suggest trying another cable to be sure.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
tstage spearoThe power districts are new to my layout also. I started laying track before I bought the second booster and the circuit breakers. All track and switch machines were wired to the DCS100 on a common bus and with this arrangement all worked fine. I was able to run locos across this gap with no problems. The shorts did not start until I installed the other booster (DB200) and the circuit breakers. Tom, Just to clarify: Were the new power districts installed/in place/tested when everything was "wired to the DCS100 on a common bus and with this arrangement all worked fine"? Or, were these added after testing your wiring with the DCS100 but prior to the addition of the DB200/circuit breakers? Since you say that your problems didn't start until you installed your new booster/breakers, logic dictates that's where you problem lies. Tom, how big is your layout? How many locomotives do you plan on running at a time? The reason for asking is that, to me - you've got a horrendous amount of amperage powering an N-scale layout. Even 4 power districts and operating turnouts, your 5-amp booster should be quite adequate for the job. I'm no electrical guru but...is it possible that the 8-amp booster is tripping the 5-amp booster when the train is crossing the gap? Does each booster need to be the same amperage? My ... Tom
No, the boosters can be of different amperage. I have 2 - 5A boosters and an 8A booster running just fine. What he does need to do is tune the breakers so that they trip out before the boosters. Also the Digitrax boosters have an option for 1/8th second or 1/2 second shutdown. I set mine for 1/2 second. If I were him I'd find ths short first, then focus on fine tuning the breaker and booster settings.
Swap the track A and Track B output wires from one of the Boosters. The DB200 would be my choice. Use the steps that maxman posted to test with a meter.
I know, I know, the red and black wires are each connected to the same outputs but some where along the line, either Digitrax didn't get the message and some of their boosters are swapped internally to others or you have a loconet cable that is reversed Swapping the outputs on one booster will solve it.
We have three at our club and one of them has been reversed from day one. We ordered themat the same time and received them the same day.
do you have the ground wire connected to the boosters? when using multiple digitrax boosters the ground connection needs to be made between them to put them into the same phase.
Ground wire won't put them into the same phase but it's a good idea to add a larger gauge wire between the two ground wires on the boosters. There is already a common connection through pins 2 and 5 of the loconet cable. Relying on those two very small wires to carry the load during a short circuit is not the best practice.
Martin Myers
The boosters should be Loconet-ed together, no cab plug ins or anything between them. Pretty much making a separate Loconet between the boosters. From the DCS, one plug should go to the other booster only. The other plug can go to all other Loconet devices. A heavier gauge ground wire also helps.
Try hooking the other booster flipping Rail A-B. If that doesn't work, maybe some of the connections out of the circuit breakers might be out of phase. When hooking up PM42s on the old club layout, there were 3 out of 8 blocks that were out of phase. Took a little trial and error to get it figured out.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
I have the identical setup, my DCS100 and DB200 each feeding a Tony's PS-4gang circuit breaker for a total of 2 power districts, 8 blocks. When a train would try to bridge between each power district I would get a short. I tried everything, even bought another DB200 and it did the same thing.
The solution, for me, turned out to be setting the DCS 100 option switch 03 from "t" to "c" cancelling out the auto reversing function of the DCS100.
Page 115 in the Super Chief manual, or section 28.0. Try it and let me know if that works. I made this option switch two years ago and never had a problem since.
ED
Actually, OpSw 3 set to CLOSED is turning ON the autoreverse function. The table show what a particular OpSw setting does if set to 'Closed'
Unless your booster is directly powering a reverse loop with no additional downstream reverser units, it should NOT be set to autoreverse. If you have to set it to autoreverse then there is either an autoreverse in the next power district that is failing to function, or there is a reverse loop you've missed in the track layout. Having a downstream autoreverser AND the booster set to autoreverse, or having any combination of two autoreversig devices feeding track on opposite sides of a gap will be nothign but trouble as the two reversing devices 'fight' one another to be the one to set the polarity correct,
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thank you for clarifying that, Randy.
That darned Digitrax manual can be a bit ambiguous at times. Anyway, by changing my op. sw. 3 to "c" fixed the problem for me and I do have two PS-Revs downstream that function flawlessly for me..
A blind squirrel does find a nut every now and then.
My guess is that you don't have your PM42's set to trip fast enough or at a low enough current and the booster was shorting out before the PM42's could flip. Changing the booster to autoreverse allows it to flip and 'solves' the problem but at this point the PM42's are probably doing exactly nothing.
rrinker My guess is that you don't have your PM42's set to trip fast enough or at a low enough current and the booster was shorting out before the PM42's could flip. Changing the booster to autoreverse allows it to flip and 'solves' the problem but at this point the PM42's are probably doing exactly nothing. --Randy
Agreed. Changing OpSw18 to .5 sec (closed) may have also fixed the issue.
WOW - thanks gang for the loads of feedback. Let me take these one at a time;
tstage - I would agree with your logic. DB200 and circuit breakers were installed at the same time, after testing of wiring with DCS100 only. I have maybe 20% of the planned track installed at this point and wanted to install all wiring before I finished installing all the track. My next plannned test was to de-install the DB200 and breakers, rewire the DCS100 in and see what happens.
The layout is a 24' x 5', going to be a steel mill. It's one long rectangle at the moment but am planning on a whole basement eventually and wanted to do it right form the start as far as power districts go. I am planning on the DB200 powering the rest of the mainline which should be another 200' +. There will be 67 turnouts on this portion of the layout alone, all with Hare/Tortoise combos, 7-10 locos running at the same time ( many MUs) with another 15-18 idling in the yard plus 4 automated locos (ore larries)
I asked Tony's about the diff amps and they said no prob.
maxman - No electrical test meter. Can you suggest a brand and where to get? Please be specific as I don't know what one of these is/does besides the obvious; testing electricity?
jbinkley60 - Tried reversing various wires to no avail. I use the loconet cable that comes with the Superchief set to connect the two boosters directly. It has always worked when I had it connecting my UR91 to the DCS100 so I assume it is working now too. I'll check for flippage tonight and try other cable too. I have the UR91 connected but not inbetween boosters.
mfm37 - I'll check tonight by reversing DB's wiring, thanks, never would have thought of that.
river eagle - ground connection between boosters? You mean linking the boosters with a ground wire - no, not done now. Let me take a pic tonight and post so we can be sure we are talking about the same thing.
wsor 3801 - please see jblinkey info above. I haven't gone quite that far in switching wires because I didn't know about the "out of phase" stuff. I'll look into this tonight.
gmpullman - no reverse loops of track laid yet, one planned but not in yet. Sounds like fixing the sympton rather than the problem though, I'll save this idea till last.
rrinker - I agree and no reversing sections of track laid yet. Even if the PM42 was set to short before the booster, I still have a short in the system. I need to get that fixed first.
Thank you all for contributing some possible solutions. I'll try what i can and get back to you with the results.
spearoNo electrical test meter.
Here's one flavor: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2999093
And here's another: http://www.micromark.com/SearchResult.aspx?deptIdFilter=0&searchPhrase=multimeter
Similar can probably be found at Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes. The two above are analog meters. You have to read a scale on these, but instructions come with the meter. There are also digital meters out there. These will flash a value on a screen. All a matter of preference.
All the advice you received from the other posters is good. However, I still say that if your problem is occurring at that particular location the first thing you should do is check the phasing (or polarity) as I described above. As someone pointed out, even though you think you have everything wired correctly there is a possibility that something is swapped, either internally or inadvertently. The problem with randomly swapping this or that wire is that you may correct one problem and create a new one.
Good luck.
If you have a Harbor Freight near you, you can get a digital meter that is more than good enough for model railroad work for $5. If you want to do precision electronic work you'll need a much more expaensive and fancy one, but for checkign your layout, the $5 variety is plenty good.
Just wanted to say thanks again to all who are trying to help me with this.
The wifey had to work last night so I had kid duty which means no time for trains but I did manage to snap a few pics so we can all be sure we are talking about the same things. Here goes, let me know if you all can see them;
The crossover in question, upper track in the pic is the inner loop and lower track in the pic is the outer loop. The little green lines on the track are the gaps I have cut.
DB200 connections
This thought occured to me last night, can the "ground wire jumper" being put into the wrong spot cause this problem. The instructions that come with the DB200 state that "all units are shipped with a grounding wire jumper installed", well go figure, mine didn't come with one. I emailed Digitrax and their Tech support emailed me back saying just "Simply cut a piece of wire...20-24 gauge is fine and put it between the Config A and Ground terminals", I used 18ga wire. You'll notice on the pic that there is no Config A port so I connected the Sync and Ground ports(left). There are 2 ground ports, a left and right, could connecting the wire to the right side ground port make this go away. I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply in the right side ground port.
I'll try to work on some wiring scenarios tonight and get an electrical test meter.
spearo Just wanted to say thanks again to all who are trying to help me with this. The wifey had to work last night so I had kid duty which means no time for trains but I did manage to snap a few pics so we can all be sure we are talking about the same things. Here goes, let me know if you all can see them; The crossover in question, upper track in the pic is the inner loop and lower track in the pic is the outer loop. The little green lines on the track are the gaps I have cut. DB200 connections This thought occured to me last night, can the "ground wire jumper" being put into the wrong spot cause this problem. The instructions that come with the DB200 state that "all units are shipped with a grounding wire jumper installed", well go figure, mine didn't come with one. I emailed Digitrax and their Tech support emailed me back saying just "Simply cut a piece of wire...20-24 gauge is fine and put it between the Config A and Ground terminals", I used 18ga wire. You'll notice on the pic that there is no Config A port so I connected the Sync and Ground ports(left). There are 2 ground ports, a left and right, could connecting the wire to the right side ground port make this go away. I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply in the right side ground port. I'll try to work on some wiring scenarios tonight and get an electrical test meter.
From the DB200 manual:
1.0 About the Green Jumper wire on the Terminal Block
Every DB200+ ships with a green jumper wire on the front panel Booster Terminal Plug connecting
Put the wire between Sync and Ground. That should resolve your issues.
Jeff,
Please see pic abpove. The green wire jumper I installed is connecting Sync and Ground. My question was do I have it connected to the correct ground port as there are two on my DB200. I guess the second ground port is also Config B ??? I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply plugged into the right-hand ground port or what I am assuming is Config B ?
spearo Jeff, Please see pic abpove. The green wire jumper I installed is connecting Sync and Ground. My question was do I have it connected to the correct ground port as there are two on my DB200. I guess the second ground port is also Config B ??? I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply plugged into the right-hand ground port or what I am assuming is Config B ?
My DB200+ is wired exactly the same way yours is. I checked with a meter and both ground pins have 0 ohms of resistence between them. On my DB150 it has config A and config B instead of a sync and ground pin. Digitrax made boosters with both configurations. Your jumper should be fine as pictured..
Your DB200 is wired right, almost. The two ground terminals are one and the same. Connect either one to Sync. There is no Config B terminal on your DB200. To make it an autoreverser, you move the right toggle switch to the center "OPS" position.
Your ground wire from the MF615 should not be connected to the DB200. Just tape the end and leave it hang. There should be only one ground from your all of the boosters to house ground. More than one connection can lead to a ground loop.
You should connect a piece of 14ga wire between the ground terminals of the booster(s) and the ground terminal of the Command station. There is already a ground (common) connection in the loconet cable and all will work most of the time. A larger wire is better than depending on the small gauge wire in the loconet cable.
From the "Digitrax Knowledge Base"
DCS100 and Boosters I recently split my layout in half, with a DB150 acting as a booster powering one side and a DCS100 powering the other. I'm trying to reconnect the bus feeders to the rails, which all worked properly before the split. Now when I reconnect the feeders there is no short indication, BUT when a loco goes over the insulated gap between the two sections, a short occurs.This is a known issue, a common occurrence when a modeler adds their first booster to a DCS100 command station. MOST DCS100 rail connections are the opposite phase from the DB100 and DB150 boosters, thus Rail A on a DCS is the same phase as Rail B on a DB. A short occurs when a locomotive passes from one phase to the other. The easiest solution is to simply reverse the Rail A and Rail B wires connected to the DB150; you can also set the Booster to auto-reverse to reverse it's phase:To set up DB150 for autoreversing:1. Start with an un-powered DB150.2. Connect the DB150‘s CONFIG A, CONFIG B & GROUND terminals with two short lengths of wire.3. Set the DB150’s MODE switch to RUN .4. Power up the DB150. The DB150 will automatically convert to automatic reversing booster operation when you power it up.5. Connect to other DB150s on LocoNet via either LocoNet Jack A or B using LocoNet cables that have been tested with an LT1.
gmpullman From the "Digitrax Knowledge Base" DCS100 and Boosters I recently split my layout in half, with a DB150 acting as a booster powering one side and a DCS100 powering the other. I'm trying to reconnect the bus feeders to the rails, which all worked properly before the split. Now when I reconnect the feeders there is no short indication, BUT when a loco goes over the insulated gap between the two sections, a short occurs.This is a known issue, a common occurrence when a modeler adds their first booster to a DCS100 command station. MOST DCS100 rail connections are the opposite phase from the DB100 and DB150 boosters, thus Rail A on a DCS is the same phase as Rail B on a DB. A short occurs when a locomotive passes from one phase to the other. The easiest solution is to simply reverse the Rail A and Rail B wires connected to the DB150; you can also set the Booster to auto-reverse to reverse it's phase:To set up DB150 for autoreversing:1. Start with an un-powered DB150.2. Connect the DB150‘s CONFIG A, CONFIG B & GROUND terminals with two short lengths of wire.3. Set the DB150’s MODE switch to RUN .4. Power up the DB150. The DB150 will automatically convert to automatic reversing booster operation when you power it up.5. Connect to other DB150s on LocoNet via either LocoNet Jack A or B using LocoNet cables that have been tested with an LT1.
He already tried reversing the booster output connections.
Martin -
Just need to clarify before I try this. Do you mean connect one end of a 14ga wire to the right side ground port (since I all ready have the jumper wire from Sync port in the left side ground port) in the DB200 and the other end to the ground port on my DCS100? Even though I have the ground wire from the MF615 in the ground port on the DCS100? Connect both ground wires ( 1 from DB200 and 1 from MF615) to the same ground port on the DCS100?
Thanks for the suggestion.
spearo The crossover in question, upper track in the pic is the inner loop and lower track in the pic is the outer loop. The little green lines on the track are the gaps I have cut.
I'm not a DCC expert by any means, just wondered: Could it be that the crossover gaps are staggered by 1/4", or does this not affect the situation?
Sam
May He bless you, guide you, and keep you safe on your journey through life!
I Model the New Hope & Ivyland RR (Bucks County, PA)
You have an MF615 connected to a DCS100. The green ground wire from the MF615 is connected to the ground terminal of the DCS100. Leave that the way it is.
Disconect the green ground wire from your second MF615 to the DB200. Tape the end of the green wire and do not connect it at all.
Now get a piece of 14 ga wire and connect the ground terminal of the DB200 to the grond terminal of the DCS100. You will need to splice the two ground wires at the DCS 100 because they both won't fit in the hole.. A terminal strip or even a wire nut would work nicely.
The reason you leave the green ground wire from the second MF615 disconnected is to avoud a ground loop problem. That wire is also connected to the ground prong of the 110 outlet on the MF615. Connecting two of those to the system creates a ground loop through the ground on your house wiring.There should be only one connection to house ground. You have that at the DCS100.
mfm37 Tom, You have an MF615 connected to a DCS100. The green ground wire from the MF615 is connected to the ground terminal of the DCS100. Leave that the way it is. Disconect the green ground wire from your second MF615 to the DB200. Tape the end of the green wire and do not connect it at all. Now get a piece of 14 ga wire and connect the ground terminal of the DB200 to the grond terminal of the DCS100. You will need to splice the two ground wires at the DCS 100 because they both won't fit in the hole.. A terminal strip or even a wire nut would work nicely. The reason you leave the green ground wire from the second MF615 disconnected is to avoud a ground loop problem. That wire is also connected to the ground prong of the 110 outlet on the MF615. Connecting two of those to the system creates a ground loop through the ground on your house wiring.There should be only one connection to house ground. You have that at the DCS100. Martin Myers
I don't see what this has to do with the issue at hand. Sure he could have a small ground loop but with the frequencies, low power and voltage we are dealing with, it will be insignificant. I have two suggestions:
1. Try replacing the Loconet cable between the boosters.
2. If #1 doesn't fix the issue, then take two pieces of track and hook them together with insulated joiners. Next disconnect the booster outputs and connect them to the two pieces of track, one booster to one side and the other booster to the other side. Then run a locomotive across the insulated gap and note what happens. If it works then we aren't dealing with a booster issue. If not, flip the wires on one side of the insulated gap and try again. If it fixes the issue then again no booster problem. If it doesn't then we need to look at booster options.
There probably already is a ground loop via the Loconet cable. The track voltage to Rail A and Rail B is referenced from that ground. It SHOULDN'T be that bad unless the house wiring is very poor, and the main reason for a heavy ground refernce between boosters is if one is set for autoreverse.
Now that that is out of the way, looking at the photo of the crossover, if we label the tracks from the bottom as Rail A, Rail B, then Rail A and Rail B for the inner loop (ie, both the same - outside track of each loop is A, inside rail is B.), have you verified that when the turnouts are thrown for the crossover, the frog of the outer turnout is rail A phase and the frog of the inner turnout is Rail b phase? If this is not so, there will be a dead short if the gaps are bridged. If could be somethign that simply, the wires on the tortoise/hare powering the frogs are backwards. Reversing the booster wires would NOT solve this problem, it woudl just move the short condition to the other gap.
Excellent suggestions all and thank you. I have not had much time this week to work on the trains but hopefully tonight and Saturday I will be able to get a lot of this sorted out.
Trainman Sam - it is my understanding that when a loco crosses a gap each rail needs to be the same "phase" as its counterpart directly across the gap in order for the loco to make it across successfully. If the tracks are in the same phase then it should not matter haw far apart the gaps are. There should be no difference between a loco crossing a gap on a straight away vs. crossing a gap between two turnouts.
Martin Myers - You are a wealth of information, thank you. Love the specifics.
Jeff - I am all over your idea of just setting up two pieces of track with hookups to each booster. I am going to try to switch wiring around hopefully this weekend, one of the things I did not take into account when I tried this before was switching the power routing on my frogs so of course it did not work. I'm going to keep it simple.
Randy - See comments above to Jeff. I just thought of that last night too, I think we are on the same page now.