They've known about it for a long time now. In fact it's even all over their "tech support depot" searchable FAQ. It also comes up about weekly on the Digitrax Yahoo group.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Eureka !
Well the problem has been solved. As it turns out quite a few of you guys were right with the phasing problem. The DB200 and the DCS100 have their polarities switched, rali A port on one matches with rail B port on the other. Boy is Digitrax going to get an email from me.
Even though I had switched the two bus wires going to the DB200 at least 2 or 3 times the short between the crossover was still there, always, I just couldn't get past that. The real problem was that one of the two subdisricts from the DB200 was my turnout control bus also thus, every time I would reverse the bus wires going from the DB200 to a PSX-2 it was reversing the phase of both subdistricts. By reversing the track subdistrict I was correcting the difference in phase between the two turnouts but at the same time I was reversing the turnout subdistrict, which was controlling the frog polarity, putting the difference in phase right back into place. That is why I had all those turnouts with reversing frog polarity. It wasn't until today when I was putting the DB200 back in line and I starting hooking up subdistricts one at a time again that I noticed it. The DB200 - PSX-2 - track subdistrict connections were made and I tried flipping the wires at this point. The turnout control subdistrict was still connected to the DCS100 and all the planets aligned. It was at this point that I figured out I was and, shouldn't be, reversing the turnout control subdistrict also.
Thanks again to all who helped me with this problem and for having ppatience, I appreciate it.
Tom
jbinkley60I don't see what this has to do with the issue at hand. Sure he could have a small ground loop but with the frequencies, low power and voltage we are dealing with, it will be insignificant. I have two suggestions:
I don't see what this has to do with the issue at hand. Sure he could have a small ground loop but with the frequencies, low power and voltage we are dealing with, it will be insignificant. I have two suggestions:
Actually, it has nothing to do with the OP's original question. We were 4 days into this simple to fix phasing problem and figured I'd point out another possible problem. That ground loop can become a bigger issue especially if the MF615's are plugged into different house circuits.
Sorry to add to the confusion. I'd have swapped the trail A and Rail B wires on the DB200 three days ago and been done with it. I have a phase reversing plug installed on our club equipment to quickly correct phase issues.
Martin Myers
Yes, there have been some that got through manufacturing and QC with the outputs reversed. But before you attribute the problem to a booster with backward terminals, check your Loconet cable between the DCS100 and DB150 and make sure you aren't using a crossover 'phone' cord. The key is the outer two wires, which carry the railsync signal which the booster amplifies for track power. If you hold the ends up so the wire drops down and the latches are away from you, the wires should be the same goign left to right. Or if you can lay the cable out completely flat, one end should have the latch up and the other down if it's a proper Loconet cable.
If you do have a backwards DCS< label it and just hook up the main power feeds comign from it in the opposite way, or if they sit next to one another you cna make a short phone-wired crossover Loconet cable to connect the two - LABEL this cable so you don't later accidently use it elsewhere. With a crossover cable connecting the boosters, the power outputs would go on the usual way, not backwards - with the crossover, Rail A will be Rail A on both. Do NOT configure one of the boosters for autoreversing. That option is generally for when the ONLY thing that booster powers is a reverse loop.
Thanks Randy -
Yes, I did disconnect all breakers and hooked buses directly to the DCS100. I would agree with your premise except all of my tortoise/hare combos are hooked up exactly the same way. The key here is that all the tort/hare combos on the inner loop which were connected to the DSC100 were the ones that were reversed. My guess was that there was a difference in phase between the two boosters causing tort/hare combos on each booster to react in opposite ways.
Sound right ?
I have since ruled out all the breakers, I currently have all buses running through their designated breaker and all is running great. Again, this is all currently powered from the DCS100. That is as far as i got this weekend as I had to dig out form the big snow for the last two days. More to follow.
Thanks again all,
So you bypassed the breakers and hooked the booster output directly to your power bus? ANd MOST of your frog power routing was flipped? That tells me you have most of your Hares hooked up backwards as far as the bus feeds to the power routing connections. ie, the ones you had to flip. And if the ones on one side of the crossover were backwards, then it would be a dead short across the gaps.
This is getting weird.
I did some wire switching last night. Totally disconnected my DB200 and all the breakers then reconnected on at a time to make sure the particular item was working correctly. I managed to rule out my PS-2 breaker (1 input & 2 ouputs) which is connected to the DCS100, also managed to rule out half on my PSX-2 (2 ins & 2 outs, esentially 2 seperate single breakers with and input jumper) which was connected to the DB200. I ran power to all breakers in question form the DCS100.
When I first fired up the system with no breakers in-line and all power coming form the DCS100 the power routing to the frogs on ALMOST all of my turnouts in the inner loop was reversed. I am still struggling to figure that out. All I had to do was flip the many switches on the Hare to correct the problem but, I am having trouble explaining this because the inner loop is/was connected to the DCS100, not the DB200 which is where I have been assuming my problem was. All is running great now but still have to check the other half of my PSX-2 and the DB200 which is in tomorrows schedule.
I will report back, thanks again.
Please use a meter to check the phase across the gaps before you start moving wires all around. This might turn out to be something simple such as you don't have the frog power wired correctly. No sense doing a bunch of unnecessary work.
Excellent suggestions all and thank you. I have not had much time this week to work on the trains but hopefully tonight and Saturday I will be able to get a lot of this sorted out.
Trainman Sam - it is my understanding that when a loco crosses a gap each rail needs to be the same "phase" as its counterpart directly across the gap in order for the loco to make it across successfully. If the tracks are in the same phase then it should not matter haw far apart the gaps are. There should be no difference between a loco crossing a gap on a straight away vs. crossing a gap between two turnouts.
Martin Myers - You are a wealth of information, thank you. Love the specifics.
Jeff - I am all over your idea of just setting up two pieces of track with hookups to each booster. I am going to try to switch wiring around hopefully this weekend, one of the things I did not take into account when I tried this before was switching the power routing on my frogs so of course it did not work. I'm going to keep it simple.
Randy - See comments above to Jeff. I just thought of that last night too, I think we are on the same page now.
There probably already is a ground loop via the Loconet cable. The track voltage to Rail A and Rail B is referenced from that ground. It SHOULDN'T be that bad unless the house wiring is very poor, and the main reason for a heavy ground refernce between boosters is if one is set for autoreverse.
Now that that is out of the way, looking at the photo of the crossover, if we label the tracks from the bottom as Rail A, Rail B, then Rail A and Rail B for the inner loop (ie, both the same - outside track of each loop is A, inside rail is B.), have you verified that when the turnouts are thrown for the crossover, the frog of the outer turnout is rail A phase and the frog of the inner turnout is Rail b phase? If this is not so, there will be a dead short if the gaps are bridged. If could be somethign that simply, the wires on the tortoise/hare powering the frogs are backwards. Reversing the booster wires would NOT solve this problem, it woudl just move the short condition to the other gap.
mfm37 Tom, You have an MF615 connected to a DCS100. The green ground wire from the MF615 is connected to the ground terminal of the DCS100. Leave that the way it is. Disconect the green ground wire from your second MF615 to the DB200. Tape the end of the green wire and do not connect it at all. Now get a piece of 14 ga wire and connect the ground terminal of the DB200 to the grond terminal of the DCS100. You will need to splice the two ground wires at the DCS 100 because they both won't fit in the hole.. A terminal strip or even a wire nut would work nicely. The reason you leave the green ground wire from the second MF615 disconnected is to avoud a ground loop problem. That wire is also connected to the ground prong of the 110 outlet on the MF615. Connecting two of those to the system creates a ground loop through the ground on your house wiring.There should be only one connection to house ground. You have that at the DCS100. Martin Myers
Tom,
You have an MF615 connected to a DCS100. The green ground wire from the MF615 is connected to the ground terminal of the DCS100. Leave that the way it is.
Disconect the green ground wire from your second MF615 to the DB200. Tape the end of the green wire and do not connect it at all.
Now get a piece of 14 ga wire and connect the ground terminal of the DB200 to the grond terminal of the DCS100. You will need to splice the two ground wires at the DCS 100 because they both won't fit in the hole.. A terminal strip or even a wire nut would work nicely.
The reason you leave the green ground wire from the second MF615 disconnected is to avoud a ground loop problem. That wire is also connected to the ground prong of the 110 outlet on the MF615. Connecting two of those to the system creates a ground loop through the ground on your house wiring.There should be only one connection to house ground. You have that at the DCS100.
1. Try replacing the Loconet cable between the boosters.
2. If #1 doesn't fix the issue, then take two pieces of track and hook them together with insulated joiners. Next disconnect the booster outputs and connect them to the two pieces of track, one booster to one side and the other booster to the other side. Then run a locomotive across the insulated gap and note what happens. If it works then we aren't dealing with a booster issue. If not, flip the wires on one side of the insulated gap and try again. If it fixes the issue then again no booster problem. If it doesn't then we need to look at booster options.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
spearo The crossover in question, upper track in the pic is the inner loop and lower track in the pic is the outer loop. The little green lines on the track are the gaps I have cut.
The crossover in question, upper track in the pic is the inner loop and lower track in the pic is the outer loop. The little green lines on the track are the gaps I have cut.
I'm not a DCC expert by any means, just wondered: Could it be that the crossover gaps are staggered by 1/4", or does this not affect the situation?
Sam
May He bless you, guide you, and keep you safe on your journey through life!
I Model the New Hope & Ivyland RR (Bucks County, PA)
Martin -
Just need to clarify before I try this. Do you mean connect one end of a 14ga wire to the right side ground port (since I all ready have the jumper wire from Sync port in the left side ground port) in the DB200 and the other end to the ground port on my DCS100? Even though I have the ground wire from the MF615 in the ground port on the DCS100? Connect both ground wires ( 1 from DB200 and 1 from MF615) to the same ground port on the DCS100?
Thanks for the suggestion.
gmpullman From the "Digitrax Knowledge Base" DCS100 and Boosters I recently split my layout in half, with a DB150 acting as a booster powering one side and a DCS100 powering the other. I'm trying to reconnect the bus feeders to the rails, which all worked properly before the split. Now when I reconnect the feeders there is no short indication, BUT when a loco goes over the insulated gap between the two sections, a short occurs.This is a known issue, a common occurrence when a modeler adds their first booster to a DCS100 command station. MOST DCS100 rail connections are the opposite phase from the DB100 and DB150 boosters, thus Rail A on a DCS is the same phase as Rail B on a DB. A short occurs when a locomotive passes from one phase to the other. The easiest solution is to simply reverse the Rail A and Rail B wires connected to the DB150; you can also set the Booster to auto-reverse to reverse it's phase:To set up DB150 for autoreversing:1. Start with an un-powered DB150.2. Connect the DB150‘s CONFIG A, CONFIG B & GROUND terminals with two short lengths of wire.3. Set the DB150’s MODE switch to RUN .4. Power up the DB150. The DB150 will automatically convert to automatic reversing booster operation when you power it up.5. Connect to other DB150s on LocoNet via either LocoNet Jack A or B using LocoNet cables that have been tested with an LT1.
From the "Digitrax Knowledge Base"
DCS100 and Boosters I recently split my layout in half, with a DB150 acting as a booster powering one side and a DCS100 powering the other. I'm trying to reconnect the bus feeders to the rails, which all worked properly before the split. Now when I reconnect the feeders there is no short indication, BUT when a loco goes over the insulated gap between the two sections, a short occurs.This is a known issue, a common occurrence when a modeler adds their first booster to a DCS100 command station. MOST DCS100 rail connections are the opposite phase from the DB100 and DB150 boosters, thus Rail A on a DCS is the same phase as Rail B on a DB. A short occurs when a locomotive passes from one phase to the other. The easiest solution is to simply reverse the Rail A and Rail B wires connected to the DB150; you can also set the Booster to auto-reverse to reverse it's phase:To set up DB150 for autoreversing:1. Start with an un-powered DB150.2. Connect the DB150‘s CONFIG A, CONFIG B & GROUND terminals with two short lengths of wire.3. Set the DB150’s MODE switch to RUN .4. Power up the DB150. The DB150 will automatically convert to automatic reversing booster operation when you power it up.5. Connect to other DB150s on LocoNet via either LocoNet Jack A or B using LocoNet cables that have been tested with an LT1.
He already tried reversing the booster output connections.
Your DB200 is wired right, almost. The two ground terminals are one and the same. Connect either one to Sync. There is no Config B terminal on your DB200. To make it an autoreverser, you move the right toggle switch to the center "OPS" position.
Your ground wire from the MF615 should not be connected to the DB200. Just tape the end and leave it hang. There should be only one ground from your all of the boosters to house ground. More than one connection can lead to a ground loop.
You should connect a piece of 14ga wire between the ground terminals of the booster(s) and the ground terminal of the Command station. There is already a ground (common) connection in the loconet cable and all will work most of the time. A larger wire is better than depending on the small gauge wire in the loconet cable.
spearo Jeff, Please see pic abpove. The green wire jumper I installed is connecting Sync and Ground. My question was do I have it connected to the correct ground port as there are two on my DB200. I guess the second ground port is also Config B ??? I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply plugged into the right-hand ground port or what I am assuming is Config B ?
Jeff,
Please see pic abpove. The green wire jumper I installed is connecting Sync and Ground. My question was do I have it connected to the correct ground port as there are two on my DB200. I guess the second ground port is also Config B ??? I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply plugged into the right-hand ground port or what I am assuming is Config B ?
My DB200+ is wired exactly the same way yours is. I checked with a meter and both ground pins have 0 ohms of resistence between them. On my DB150 it has config A and config B instead of a sync and ground pin. Digitrax made boosters with both configurations. Your jumper should be fine as pictured..
spearo Just wanted to say thanks again to all who are trying to help me with this. The wifey had to work last night so I had kid duty which means no time for trains but I did manage to snap a few pics so we can all be sure we are talking about the same things. Here goes, let me know if you all can see them; The crossover in question, upper track in the pic is the inner loop and lower track in the pic is the outer loop. The little green lines on the track are the gaps I have cut. DB200 connections This thought occured to me last night, can the "ground wire jumper" being put into the wrong spot cause this problem. The instructions that come with the DB200 state that "all units are shipped with a grounding wire jumper installed", well go figure, mine didn't come with one. I emailed Digitrax and their Tech support emailed me back saying just "Simply cut a piece of wire...20-24 gauge is fine and put it between the Config A and Ground terminals", I used 18ga wire. You'll notice on the pic that there is no Config A port so I connected the Sync and Ground ports(left). There are 2 ground ports, a left and right, could connecting the wire to the right side ground port make this go away. I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply in the right side ground port. I'll try to work on some wiring scenarios tonight and get an electrical test meter.
Just wanted to say thanks again to all who are trying to help me with this.
The wifey had to work last night so I had kid duty which means no time for trains but I did manage to snap a few pics so we can all be sure we are talking about the same things. Here goes, let me know if you all can see them;
DB200 connections
This thought occured to me last night, can the "ground wire jumper" being put into the wrong spot cause this problem. The instructions that come with the DB200 state that "all units are shipped with a grounding wire jumper installed", well go figure, mine didn't come with one. I emailed Digitrax and their Tech support emailed me back saying just "Simply cut a piece of wire...20-24 gauge is fine and put it between the Config A and Ground terminals", I used 18ga wire. You'll notice on the pic that there is no Config A port so I connected the Sync and Ground ports(left). There are 2 ground ports, a left and right, could connecting the wire to the right side ground port make this go away. I have the ground wire from the Magna Force power supply in the right side ground port.
I'll try to work on some wiring scenarios tonight and get an electrical test meter.
From the DB200 manual:
1.0 About the Green Jumper wire on the Terminal Block
Every DB200+ ships with a green jumper wire on the front panel Booster Terminal Plug connecting
Put the wire between Sync and Ground. That should resolve your issues.
If you have a Harbor Freight near you, you can get a digital meter that is more than good enough for model railroad work for $5. If you want to do precision electronic work you'll need a much more expaensive and fancy one, but for checkign your layout, the $5 variety is plenty good.
spearoNo electrical test meter.
Here's one flavor: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2999093
And here's another: http://www.micromark.com/SearchResult.aspx?deptIdFilter=0&searchPhrase=multimeter
Similar can probably be found at Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes. The two above are analog meters. You have to read a scale on these, but instructions come with the meter. There are also digital meters out there. These will flash a value on a screen. All a matter of preference.
All the advice you received from the other posters is good. However, I still say that if your problem is occurring at that particular location the first thing you should do is check the phasing (or polarity) as I described above. As someone pointed out, even though you think you have everything wired correctly there is a possibility that something is swapped, either internally or inadvertently. The problem with randomly swapping this or that wire is that you may correct one problem and create a new one.
Good luck.
WOW - thanks gang for the loads of feedback. Let me take these one at a time;
tstage - I would agree with your logic. DB200 and circuit breakers were installed at the same time, after testing of wiring with DCS100 only. I have maybe 20% of the planned track installed at this point and wanted to install all wiring before I finished installing all the track. My next plannned test was to de-install the DB200 and breakers, rewire the DCS100 in and see what happens.
The layout is a 24' x 5', going to be a steel mill. It's one long rectangle at the moment but am planning on a whole basement eventually and wanted to do it right form the start as far as power districts go. I am planning on the DB200 powering the rest of the mainline which should be another 200' +. There will be 67 turnouts on this portion of the layout alone, all with Hare/Tortoise combos, 7-10 locos running at the same time ( many MUs) with another 15-18 idling in the yard plus 4 automated locos (ore larries)
I asked Tony's about the diff amps and they said no prob.
maxman - No electrical test meter. Can you suggest a brand and where to get? Please be specific as I don't know what one of these is/does besides the obvious; testing electricity?
jbinkley60 - Tried reversing various wires to no avail. I use the loconet cable that comes with the Superchief set to connect the two boosters directly. It has always worked when I had it connecting my UR91 to the DCS100 so I assume it is working now too. I'll check for flippage tonight and try other cable too. I have the UR91 connected but not inbetween boosters.
mfm37 - I'll check tonight by reversing DB's wiring, thanks, never would have thought of that.
river eagle - ground connection between boosters? You mean linking the boosters with a ground wire - no, not done now. Let me take a pic tonight and post so we can be sure we are talking about the same thing.
wsor 3801 - please see jblinkey info above. I haven't gone quite that far in switching wires because I didn't know about the "out of phase" stuff. I'll look into this tonight.
gmpullman - no reverse loops of track laid yet, one planned but not in yet. Sounds like fixing the sympton rather than the problem though, I'll save this idea till last.
rrinker - I agree and no reversing sections of track laid yet. Even if the PM42 was set to short before the booster, I still have a short in the system. I need to get that fixed first.
Thank you all for contributing some possible solutions. I'll try what i can and get back to you with the results.
rrinker My guess is that you don't have your PM42's set to trip fast enough or at a low enough current and the booster was shorting out before the PM42's could flip. Changing the booster to autoreverse allows it to flip and 'solves' the problem but at this point the PM42's are probably doing exactly nothing. --Randy
My guess is that you don't have your PM42's set to trip fast enough or at a low enough current and the booster was shorting out before the PM42's could flip. Changing the booster to autoreverse allows it to flip and 'solves' the problem but at this point the PM42's are probably doing exactly nothing.
Agreed. Changing OpSw18 to .5 sec (closed) may have also fixed the issue.
Thank you for clarifying that, Randy.
That darned Digitrax manual can be a bit ambiguous at times. Anyway, by changing my op. sw. 3 to "c" fixed the problem for me and I do have two PS-Revs downstream that function flawlessly for me..
A blind squirrel does find a nut every now and then.
ED
Actually, OpSw 3 set to CLOSED is turning ON the autoreverse function. The table show what a particular OpSw setting does if set to 'Closed'
Unless your booster is directly powering a reverse loop with no additional downstream reverser units, it should NOT be set to autoreverse. If you have to set it to autoreverse then there is either an autoreverse in the next power district that is failing to function, or there is a reverse loop you've missed in the track layout. Having a downstream autoreverser AND the booster set to autoreverse, or having any combination of two autoreversig devices feeding track on opposite sides of a gap will be nothign but trouble as the two reversing devices 'fight' one another to be the one to set the polarity correct,
I have the identical setup, my DCS100 and DB200 each feeding a Tony's PS-4gang circuit breaker for a total of 2 power districts, 8 blocks. When a train would try to bridge between each power district I would get a short. I tried everything, even bought another DB200 and it did the same thing.
The solution, for me, turned out to be setting the DCS 100 option switch 03 from "t" to "c" cancelling out the auto reversing function of the DCS100.
Page 115 in the Super Chief manual, or section 28.0. Try it and let me know if that works. I made this option switch two years ago and never had a problem since.