rrinker NCE aliases a 'real' loco number with the 1-127 value it programs in the decoder's CV19, so you are always addressing the consist by the actual loco number rather than the consist number. ALthough I have my sneaking suspicions it does really do more like Universal Consisting. The test would be to check the CV19 value of every loco in the consist - they shoudl all be the same, and non-zero. My question is, if the command station 'picks' a number to plug in CV19, how doe sit 'know' not to use a number you have set as a short address? If you have short address 20, and also program some locos to consist with CV19 = 20, the single unit will move with the consist. This is why I wonder if the NCE way really does program CV19 or if it simply keeps track of which loco addresses you add to the consist. Also the need to program what functions in a CV19 consist are active is a decoder function so that pretty much rules out NCE setting CV19 when you consist - you'd have the same function problem you do in a Digitrax advanced consist. I beleive NCE is using the same methodolgy that Digitrax calls UniVersal consisting.
NCE aliases a 'real' loco number with the 1-127 value it programs in the decoder's CV19, so you are always addressing the consist by the actual loco number rather than the consist number. ALthough I have my sneaking suspicions it does really do more like Universal Consisting. The test would be to check the CV19 value of every loco in the consist - they shoudl all be the same, and non-zero. My question is, if the command station 'picks' a number to plug in CV19, how doe sit 'know' not to use a number you have set as a short address? If you have short address 20, and also program some locos to consist with CV19 = 20, the single unit will move with the consist. This is why I wonder if the NCE way really does program CV19 or if it simply keeps track of which loco addresses you add to the consist. Also the need to program what functions in a CV19 consist are active is a decoder function so that pretty much rules out NCE setting CV19 when you consist - you'd have the same function problem you do in a Digitrax advanced consist. I beleive NCE is using the same methodolgy that Digitrax calls UniVersal consisting.
Yes, this was my point. Advanced consists are supposed to be loaded into the decoders so is NCE really changing the decoders or not ? This is also why I suggested changing the NMRA spec for advanced consisting to 4 digits. Then the "aliasing" could be with the decoders and transparent across layouts. To your point, if NCE is writing the CV19 values and auto-assinging them, how does it know it didn't stomp on another short address and NCE would be limited, like all manufacturers, to the 127 consists on a layout at the same time due to the NMRA spec. A quick test to determine how NCE does it under the covers would be to pick the consist up and move it to another layout and see if it still works the same. If so, they are programming CV19.
rrinker The difference being that other systems don't use the 'slot' concept to store addresses and so aren't as easily 'filled up' by having too many locos selected. There are advantages of both methods. And disadvantages. There has to be SOME limit as there isn;t infinite memory in the system to store all the addresses. And at some point you're going to have so many data packets being sent out that the throughput of the DCC signal will not be enough to control them all without excessive delays. What is that number that will overwhelm the DCC signal? I have no idea. Probably large - 255 or more. Or there will be so many addresses to check adn send command for that the command station processor will be overwhelmed.
The difference being that other systems don't use the 'slot' concept to store addresses and so aren't as easily 'filled up' by having too many locos selected. There are advantages of both methods. And disadvantages. There has to be SOME limit as there isn;t infinite memory in the system to store all the addresses. And at some point you're going to have so many data packets being sent out that the throughput of the DCC signal will not be enough to control them all without excessive delays. What is that number that will overwhelm the DCC signal? I have no idea. Probably large - 255 or more. Or there will be so many addresses to check adn send command for that the command station processor will be overwhelmed.
From a pure memory allocation perspective extending the limit beyond 120 shouldn't be a big deal unless Digitrax already has all of the available memory in the DCS100 allocated. This might require a chip upgrade to resolve.
rrinker I'm sort of surprised no one has made a tool for JMRI that plays aroudn with the consists for Digitrax - there's no reason why they could't do a Universal consist and handle it the way NCE does, allowing you to flip the lead and trailing unit at will. One simple button click should be able to do that - and also you should be able to trigger it off with perhaps a switch address - that could get complicated though as you'd need a different trigger for each operator so it only flipped the consist they were running. The capability is there though to do this. There is a rudimentary consist tool in there to make and break consists but it doesn't have the other functionality of swapping the 'top' loco. --Randy
I'm sort of surprised no one has made a tool for JMRI that plays aroudn with the consists for Digitrax - there's no reason why they could't do a Universal consist and handle it the way NCE does, allowing you to flip the lead and trailing unit at will. One simple button click should be able to do that - and also you should be able to trigger it off with perhaps a switch address - that could get complicated though as you'd need a different trigger for each operator so it only flipped the consist they were running. The capability is there though to do this. There is a rudimentary consist tool in there to make and break consists but it doesn't have the other functionality of swapping the 'top' loco.
--Randy
Consisting is one area where all manufacturers could provide some enhancements. Your idea is one way to improve things while the manufacturers sort it out. JMRI is pretty flexible so it is only a matter of time before someone does something similar to this.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Paul3All this work and thought to MU some locos with Advanced consisting, and people think it's better? Sheesh...
All this work and thought to MU some locos with Advanced consisting, and people think it's better? Sheesh...
Neither style of consisting is inherently better, it depends on the situation and in some situations advanced consisting necessary. For example, if a club wants to run 50 three unit consists at the same with a DCS100, the only way to do it is to use advanced consisting and to handle the consisting manually instead of through the throttles MU functions.
Paul3...With Universal consisting, you select the lead engine number (it doesn't even have to be a real engine on the layout), then select each trailing unit and add it to the lead unit. When running, the lead number would play independant sounds (horn, bell, etc.) but all units rev up their engine sounds. It's pretty simple, and always works the same way no matter who's decoder it is...
When running a consist on NCE it works the same way, you select the lead unit to run the consist and the lead unit plays the independant sounds and all units play their engine sounds. NCE has the added advantage that you can select the rear unit to run in the other direction.
Seems like an easy workaround then with Digitrax, since you cna have two locos selected on the throttle at any time (assuming a DT400). Use advanced consisting with one knob selectign the consist address to control speed and direction, and dial up the 'lead' loco on the other knob to blwo the horn and so forth. Want to go back the other way? Dial the trailing unit on the second knob (which is now the 'lead' unit) and now that one is at the head end and has controllable functions. Hmm, something to try when my stuff gets here - but I think this would work.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
So now that I have started and learned a lot from this thread I have a question. If two or three engines are permanently used as sets why can't they all be programmed to the same number to get around the slot problem?
jbinkley60...Advanced consists are supposed to be loaded into the decoders so is NCE really changing the decoders or not ?...
jbinkley60... if NCE is writing the CV19 values and auto-assinging them, how does it know it didn't stomp on another short address...
ndbprrSo now that I have started and learned a lot from this thread I have a question. If two or three engines are permanently used as sets why can't they all be programmed to the same number to get around the slot problem?
rrinker Seems like an easy workaround then with Digitrax, since you cna have two locos selected on the throttle at any time (assuming a DT400). Use advanced consisting with one knob selectign the consist address to control speed and direction, and dial up the 'lead' loco on the other knob to blwo the horn and so forth. Want to go back the other way? Dial the trailing unit on the second knob (which is now the 'lead' unit) and now that one is at the head end and has controllable functions. Hmm, something to try when my stuff gets here - but I think this would work. --Randy
I am pretty certain with Digitrax that universal consists don't work in both directions like that. If you dial the trailing unit you just control it. If you dial up the top locomotive then you control all of them. The exception is an advanced consist. If I get time this weekend I'll verify this with my system.
I'm with Jeff. I don't think that would work.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Not in UniVersal, using Advanced - CV19. To flip the top loco with UniVersal consistign would require some sort of scripting I mentioned which should be possible with JMRI or other software.
ndbprr So now that I have started and learned a lot from this thread I have a question. If two or three engines are permanently used as sets why can't they all be programmed to the same number to get around the slot problem?
If they are permanently coupled together - then yes, just set them all to the same address and only one slot will be used. You can adjust start/mid/max or set up speed tables in the decoders so that if one loco has a sound decoder and the others do not, they can all run together and not buck and jerk. Or if all of them have different brands of decders - or even if they are all the same, identical locos fromt he same manufacturer may or may not run perfectly together right out of the box.
rrinker Not in UniVersal, using Advanced - CV19. To flip the top loco with UniVersal consistign would require some sort of scripting I mentioned which should be possible with JMRI or other software. --Randy
I did confirm that with the universal consist you only have motor control for the Top (lead) locomotive. You can dial the rest up individually for lights, sound etc. If you dial anything but the Top locomotive with the other dial, the motor control doesn't work. This is probably a good thing, to keep the consist from getting two different motor controls.
With the advanced consist you'd generally want to use the advanced consist 2 digit address. Are you saying to try using the 2 digit address for the forward direction and dial up the 4 digit real address for the opposite direction to flip the locomotives ?
Not for motor control - just dial up the loco on the opposite end when you go 'backwards' with the consist so you have control of the lights and horn adn bell in the 'lead' loco.
Like so: 1000--1001--1002 all consisted with Advanced Consisting on consist 10, with 1002 leading. Dial 10 on the right throttle to control speed and direction of the consist. Dial 1002 on the left to control the lights and horn without all that silly "which function is active in a consist" programming. Now you reach the end of the line and want to go back the other way. Keep 10 on the right knob, but now dial 1000 on the left so when you blow the horn the one in 1000 sounds instead of 1002. Or if 1001 is the only unit with a sound decoder, dial that one on the left.
rrinker Now you reach the end of the line and want to go back the other way. Keep 10 on the right knob, but now dial 1000 on the left so when you blow the horn the one in 1000 sounds instead of 1002. Or if 1001 is the only unit with a sound decoder, dial that one on the left. --Randy
Now you reach the end of the line and want to go back the other way. Keep 10 on the right knob, but now dial 1000 on the left so when you blow the horn the one in 1000 sounds instead of 1002. Or if 1001 is the only unit with a sound decoder, dial that one on the left.
When you go back the other way are you selecting "reverse" on the right dial? So, are you controlling speed and direction with the right dial and then have to make the left dial active any time you want to use a function on 1000?
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
rrinker Not for motor control - just dial up the loco on the opposite end when you go 'backwards' with the consist so you have control of the lights and horn adn bell in the 'lead' loco. Like so: 1000--1001--1002 all consisted with Advanced Consisting on consist 10, with 1002 leading. Dial 10 on the right throttle to control speed and direction of the consist. Dial 1002 on the left to control the lights and horn without all that silly "which function is active in a consist" programming. Now you reach the end of the line and want to go back the other way. Keep 10 on the right knob, but now dial 1000 on the left so when you blow the horn the one in 1000 sounds instead of 1002. Or if 1001 is the only unit with a sound decoder, dial that one on the left. --Randy
You can do that with universal consisting too. That is actually what I tested. The difference was the right knob was the top locomotive 4 digit address, not a 2 digit advanced consist address. It should work exactly as you describe for advanced consisting too.
jwils1 rrinker Now you reach the end of the line and want to go back the other way. Keep 10 on the right knob, but now dial 1000 on the left so when you blow the horn the one in 1000 sounds instead of 1002. Or if 1001 is the only unit with a sound decoder, dial that one on the left. --RandyRandy, When you go back the other way are you selecting "reverse" on the right dial? So, are you controlling speed and direction with the right dial and then have to make the left dial active any time you want to use a function on 1000?
Yes - which means clicking the left dial or turning it one click. And as you are rolling along you can leave it that way, the instant you need to adjust speed on the right it will take over as you turn the knob.
jbinkley60 rrinker Not for motor control - just dial up the loco on the opposite end when you go 'backwards' with the consist so you have control of the lights and horn adn bell in the 'lead' loco. Like so: 1000--1001--1002 all consisted with Advanced Consisting on consist 10, with 1002 leading. Dial 10 on the right throttle to control speed and direction of the consist. Dial 1002 on the left to control the lights and horn without all that silly "which function is active in a consist" programming. Now you reach the end of the line and want to go back the other way. Keep 10 on the right knob, but now dial 1000 on the left so when you blow the horn the one in 1000 sounds instead of 1002. Or if 1001 is the only unit with a sound decoder, dial that one on the left. --Randy You can do that with universal consisting too. That is actually what I tested. The difference was the right knob was the top locomotive 4 digit address, not a 2 digit advanced consist address. It should work exactly as you describe for advanced consisting too.
Well, the idea was to save on slot usage by using CV19 consisting. On a 3 unit consist that only saves one, because you have the consist address plus the lead loco selected, but on a 4 unit consist it saves 2, 5 units saves 3, etc.
Something else to work on, a JMRI script that periodically clears idle slots. Rather than have someone constantly checking to keep the system from running out of slots, it probably could be automated, so slots are cleared faster than the command station does it to avoid slot full errors.
I´ve a NCE PowerCab. No problems, but: a) it starts in 28 speed steps, so I manually must turn to 128; b) needs a switch on/off in the handheld; and c) needs a short circuit light or noticeable device. Bye
tstageAlthough I've been quite content with my NCE Power Cab these past three years, I sometimes wish it had a recall stack larger than just two locomotives. Other than that, I have no complaints.Tom
Although I've been quite content with my NCE Power Cab these past three years, I sometimes wish it had a recall stack larger than just two locomotives. Other than that, I have no complaints.
Tom
It has 6 recalls in the stack if you read the instructions that came with it and set it up properly.
NCE seems to have taken lessons from Microsoft when they designated the key usage -- Press Emergency Stop to Turn On the wireless controller. Say what? Press EXPN and then the Number 1 button to turn off the wireless controller. Why couldn't they have added a simple ON/OFF button?
If you inadvertently press the PROGRAM key instead of EXPN, which is easy to do because they are right next to each other, you then have to continue pressing PROGRAM through 10 or so steps before you get back to the first screen and can then turn the throttle off.
Nothing, I have had NCE since 2000, powerpro with 4 boosters, I like everything about it, or I wouldn't have kept it.
Bob
I have the MRC Prodigy Advance with 2 wired throttles and 2 wireless. All work just fine. I designated the wireless as 'road' throttles and the wired ones as 'yard' throttles, one near each of the yard areas on my layout.
As has been posed, each throttle unit has to have a unique, sequential cab number assigned. This goes also for when you might have a buddy come over to operate with their cab; be sure to assign it the next cab number available. Also note that after a certain number of cabs, there is a selector on the base station to allow more throttles (I think the number is 4 or 5).
Detlef
When operating on other model railroad layouts I find that they seem to have unexplained run-aways or I have to keep plugging the keypad back into the front panel to keep control of my train.
This has been on several different layouts at different time so it can not be attribuited to a same day type of problem.
These were Radio DCC systems. And when I ask about these problems I was informed that Yes we have them occasionally but are just used to plugging them back in or continually pressing the Select button to reacquire the engine.
Oh BTW these layouts used the NCE system!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cacole tstage Although I've been quite content with my NCE Power Cab these past three years, I sometimes wish it had a recall stack larger than just two locomotives. Other than that, I have no complaints. Tom It has 6 recalls in the stack if you read the instructions that came with it and set it up properly.
tstage Although I've been quite content with my NCE Power Cab these past three years, I sometimes wish it had a recall stack larger than just two locomotives. Other than that, I have no complaints. Tom
Okay, cacole, I'll bite. As the happy owner of a PowerCab system, I'd love to know how to put 6 locos in the stack. I've read the manual through more than once and don't see what you are referring to. What's the trick, please?