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What don't you like about your DCC system?

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Posted by Last Chance on Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:52 PM

It's easier to recall memory two cab numbers in a consist 31, 33 etc. Than it is to call up 233, 231 and 9550 and 9512.

 

Whew, Im tired.

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Posted by saronaterry on Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:26 PM

If anyone has a Digitrax UT they aren't using I'd be glad to take them off your hands. Send me a PM.

Terry

Terry in NW Wisconsin

Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, January 10, 2009 10:04 PM

ndbprr
I need to know the cons of the various systems ... what you don't like about it or would like to see changed.

Lenz - the wired throttles both LH100 and LH90 are just slightly too wide to operate with one hand.  Their wireless solution (use a wireless touch tone phone) is half baked.  Won't program all sound units on the programming track.  Computer interface isn't built in must buy a separate unit.  Had to buy power supply separately.  Comes with only 1 throttle had to buy the others.

Digitrax Zephyr - A bit tinny (well actually plasticy) it could be built with a little heavier materials.  Power supply it came with could have been better.  Computer interface not built in.  Won't program all sound units on the programming track.  Has only one built in throttle, have to buy others or use the jumper ports for others.

MRC Command 2000 - has only 14 throttle steps.   No computer interface.  Doesn't use full range of channel numbers for locos (limited to certain sets).  When used on a rug with static electricity involved the unit will hickup if a finger spark happens, so I had to ground it.

NCE - huge luggy hammer head throttles.  After carrying around one of the wireless ones for 4+ hours I fell like I've done a workout.  Had to install throttle holsters all over the layout so people could put them down more often.  Base system comes with only one throttle.

CVP - I don't have the system just the wireless throttles.  It only supports 8 throttles.  The RC-1300 throttles have a screw and use the antenna as a screw to open the box to replace the batteries.  

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Posted by CSX Robert on Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:07 PM
Texas Zepher
..MRC Command 2000 - has only 14 throttle steps...
Actually the Command 2000 will do 28 speed steps to.
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Posted by mfm37 on Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:34 PM

CSX Robert
Texas Zepher
..MRC Command 2000 - has only 14 throttle steps...
Actually the Command 2000 will do 28 speed steps to.

 

 
It was their decoders back then that would  only do 14 speed steps.

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Posted by blang68 on Sunday, January 11, 2009 4:59 AM

 I have in the USA a Lenz set 100 as well as a LH90 throttle and a RoCo Multi Mouse used only as a slave throttle all connected to a dedicated computer  using JMRI, in Europe I have the RoCo basic set using the multi mouse as the command station. I have liked the Multi mouse as a throttle as I find it is easer to use a knob to controll speeds and it has a 99 loco stack. Since in europe my RoCo unit came pre programmed using the loco identifiication instead of an address I have come to like that as well (One still needs to address each Unit) what I do not like is the inability to read back the CV's in the Roco unit. To read back the CV one must either attach it to RoCo's computer interface or a Lenz system (Roco uses X-bus to communicate to throttles and controllers on its system).

Bill in Zug

 

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Posted by simon1966 on Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:13 AM

Texas Zepher
Won't program all sound units on the programming track.

 

Hey TZ, curious what sound decoders have you not been able to program on the Zephyr program track.  To date I own and programed successfully Tsunami Heavy Steam, Lok Sound as factory installed by PCM, QSI as installed by BLI, Soundtraxx LC's and MRC sound decoders. 

Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:33 AM

I don't have the Zephyr, I have the Super Chief, but I have never found a decoder I cannot program on the program track.

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by k4dan on Monday, January 12, 2009 12:07 AM

i have a super chief and still new to dcc their might be more i dint like.i only have the dt400 throttle the 2 things i dint like is

1) some times the buttons stick down.

2) when you unplug to go wireless you have the cable hanging with you.wish they would of put a female socket in the hand held and used a double male cord. was thinking of cutting it short and installing 2 rj plugs and using a double female adapter to reconnect them when I'm plugged in that way i could let the cord hang at the ur91....ect.

has anyone tried this or will it not work for some reason the cord has to be their.

 

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Posted by jbinkley60 on Monday, January 12, 2009 4:41 AM

Phoebe Vet

I don't have the Zephyr, I have the Super Chief, but I have never found a decoder I cannot program on the program track.

Same here.  For the latest QSI decoders I had to use direct mode as opposed to page mode but they programmed just fine.

 

Engineer Jeff NS Nut
Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/

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Posted by Stevert on Monday, January 12, 2009 8:36 AM

k4dan

i have a super chief and still new to dcc their might be more i dint like.i only have the dt400 throttle the 2 things i dint like is

1) some times the buttons stick down.

2) when you unplug to go wireless you have the cable hanging with you.wish they would of put a female socket in the hand held and used a double male cord. was thinking of cutting it short and installing 2 rj plugs and using a double female adapter to reconnect them when I'm plugged in that way i could let the cord hang at the ur91....ect.

has anyone tried this or will it not work for some reason the cord has to be their.

 

1) Sticky buttons don't seem to be a pervasive problem on DT400's.  Are you sure you didn't get anything on the throttle that would cause them to stick?

2) I believe the cord also functions as the antenna, so you're probably stuck with this one.

Steve

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Monday, January 12, 2009 8:45 AM

I've never had a button stick on either the DT400 ot the UT4.  Perhaps you have operated them with construction products on your hands.

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:09 AM

 Sometimes the stuck on overlay with the button labels is applied slightly of center and the rubber buttons can stick on this. One commonly mentioned solution on the Digitrax group is to take the throttle apart and gently twirl a hobby knife in each hole from the inside to make sure none of the overlay interferes with the hole in the case. You don't want to cut the palstic though, or else you'll end up being able to truly get the button stuck down under the cover. Sometimes you don;t have to actually cut away anything, just shifting the cover slightly is enough to solve any misalignment issue.

 Doesn't happen to all, mine never had a problem, my friend's power button sticks sometimes. I'd say it may be based on exactly how you press the buttons down, but his power button has stuck for me so it's not just a difference in pushing down, say straight vs at an angle.

                                              --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by KemacPrr on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:07 PM

My current system is a Digitrax Super Chief. I have problems with the slot max issue. System is not capable of handling a rr operation the size of mine. Large clubs also have the same problem. I wish Digitrax would handle advanced consisting the same way NCE does. it would help the slot max issue and would make operation easier to understand for a number of people. Digitrax has known about this for years but has not addressed the problem. Other than the slots  and advanced consisting issues the Super Chief works great ---------  Ken McCorry

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:23 PM

Ken:

 As configured at the Factory, the DCS100 Super Chief has 22 available "slots", which is the number of locomotives that the system can support in operation at any given time.

If you need to use more than 22 slots you can change the DCS100 OPSW#44 to "c". This increases the DCS100's slot refresh capacity to approximately 120 active locos with any available address.

Does your club run more than 120 locos at once?

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:58 PM

 Guess you're not familiar with Ken's layout. He has one of those most of us only dream about. It's been in the various magazines a few times. I'm PRETTY sure he has his command station set to 120 slots - his layout is just that big that he actually runs that many locos in an operating session (although I am sure that after all this time there are still some operators who don't properly dispatch their locos when they finish a run - which when you are running on the ragged edge to begin with, it doesn't take much to start causing errors).

 The real answer is for Digitrax to retire the fairly pointless Super Empire Builder, move the Super Chief down to be the 'mid' system, and build a new top-end system that handles 255 addresses or more. Loconet can probably handle it with no problem (ie too slow a response time).

                                          --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by k4dan on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:11 PM

rrinker

 Sometimes the stuck on overlay with the button labels is applied slightly of center and the rubber buttons can stick on this. One commonly mentioned solution on the Digitrax group is to take the throttle apart and gently twirl a hobby knife in each hole from the inside to make sure none of the overlay interferes with the hole in the case. You don't want to cut the palstic though, or else you'll end up being able to truly get the button stuck down under the cover. Sometimes you don;t have to actually cut away anything, just shifting the cover slightly is enough to solve any misalignment issue.

 Doesn't happen to all, mine never had a problem, my friend's power button sticks sometimes. I'd say it may be based on exactly how you press the buttons down, but his power button has stuck for me so it's not just a difference in pushing down, say straight vs at an angle.

                                              --Randy

 

thanks randy,

ill take it apart and see if thats whats making the buttons stick.

so do u agree about the cord does it doubles as an antenna

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:23 PM

 No, the cord is NOT the antenna on the DT400R. Since it is attached to the circuitry though, changing the cord length would invalidate the FCC certification.

 Keep in minf the most likely thing to break is the RJ plug. If you cut the existing cord off shor tnad put a new plug end on it, what happens when that plug breaks? You have no more cord to cut back slightly and add a new plug. Keep what's on there, and use a female to female coupler to extend it if you want a longer cord on the radio throttle.

                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Railroad on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:46 AM

I have a NCE powercab and i do not like the 2 stack recall. It should be at least 6 like the pro system.

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Posted by KemacPrr on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:37 PM

My command station is set to 120. With the number of trains I have in staging with power already attached and power in engine terminals all consisted and ready to go and with all the single units in the steel mill and yards I have 110-115 slots full when I start a session. I don't wnat crews mu'ing their power as that can lead to problems as I found out in the past. The rr currently has 214 locos in service . Normal operations uses about 180 total.  I have seen the slot max issue on much smaller layouts where crews might not completely turn off loco's leave them at speed step 1. If you do not have a computer and locobuffer to maintain the slots you end up cleaning out everything to get the system working again. Most people will not see this problem but large private and club layouts will and it needs to be addressed. -------------------  Ken McCorry

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Posted by Bill54 on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:37 PM

Railroad

I have a NCE powercab and i do not like the 2 stack recall. It should be at least 6 like the pro system.

I have the NCE Powerhouse Pro Radio system and all I have is 2 in the recall stack not 6.  That is my biggest dislike and I received the upgrade chip that I installed almost a year ago.  It didn't make a difference.

However, overall I love the simplicity of operation.

Bill

As my Mom always says...Where there's a will there's a way!
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Posted by CSX Robert on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:36 PM
Bill54

Railroad

I have a NCE powercab and i do not like the 2 stack recall. It should be at least 6 like the pro system.

I have the NCE Powerhouse Pro Radio system and all I have is 2 in the recall stack not 6.  That is my biggest dislike and I received the upgrade chip that I installed almost a year ago.  It didn't make a difference.

However, overall I love the simplicity of operation.

Bill

The size of the recall stack on a Pro Cab defaults to two, but it is adjustable from two to six. See the section on setting cab parameters for instructions on how to do it.
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Posted by CSX Robert on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:53 PM
You can run more than 120 engines on a Digitrax DCS100 if you use advanced consisting and you handle it manually instead of using the command station to handle it. If you do this, then the total number of consists plus the number of locomotives not in a consist can not exceed 120.
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Posted by KemacPrr on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:04 PM

Thats true but unfortunely Digitrax handles advanced consisting in a user unfriendly manner unlike NCE. With Digitrax the lead loco in their advanced consists is the 1-127 advanced consist address. This means that if you have a sound unit as a leader in a consist that you will need to modify the cv's for that loco in order for the sound functions to work. Also the use of the consist address uses up a slot per consist address so in a 3 unit consist you only save one slot. NCE handles it much better as the command ststion alias's the consist address to the 4 digit loco address allowing the crew to simply dial up the loco number to run the train and use any sound functions. If Digitrax would change the way they handle advanced consisting it would fix the slot issue for me. So far no fix. ---   Ken McCorry

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Posted by CSX Robert on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:22 PM
KemacPrr
... Also the use of the consist address uses up a slot per consist address so in a 3 unit consist you only save one slot...
You lost me here. If you let the command station handle the consisting, a three unti consist takes three slots. If you do advanced consisting manually, you program the consist address in each locomotive and run it from the consist address, taking one slot for a savings of two slots. I do agree that NCE handles consisting better
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Posted by pastorbob on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:31 PM

I really can't find anything I don't like about my system, NCE Pro, have used NCE since 1999, like the cabs, like the system operation.  It runs on my Santa Fe with 4 boosters and radio very nicely.  It was easy to learn, is easy to use.

Bob

Bob Miller http://www.atsfmodelrailroads.com/
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Posted by jbinkley60 on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:20 PM

KemacPrr

Thats true but unfortunely Digitrax handles advanced consisting in a user unfriendly manner unlike NCE. With Digitrax the lead loco in their advanced consists is the 1-127 advanced consist address. This means that if you have a sound unit as a leader in a consist that you will need to modify the cv's for that loco in order for the sound functions to work. Also the use of the consist address uses up a slot per consist address so in a 3 unit consist you only save one slot. NCE handles it much better as the command ststion alias's the consist address to the 4 digit loco address allowing the crew to simply dial up the loco number to run the train and use any sound functions. If Digitrax would change the way they handle advanced consisting it would fix the slot issue for me. So far no fix. ---   Ken McCorry

How is NCE's advanced consist different different than Digitrax's universal consist ?   Digitrax universal  consist uses the top locomotive address as the lead.  Advanced consist is limited to 2 digit addressing per NMRA standards and is programmed into the decoders.    I agree that I'd like to see Digitrax expand the 120 slot limit but right now it isn't an issue for me <yet>...

 

Engineer Jeff NS Nut
Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:25 PM

NCE aliases a 'real' loco number with the 1-127 value it programs in the decoder's CV19, so you are always addressing the consist by the actual loco number rather than the consist number. ALthough I have my sneaking suspicions it does really do more like Universal Consisting. The test would be to check the CV19 value of every loco in the consist - they shoudl all be the same, and non-zero. My question is, if the command station 'picks' a number to plug in CV19, how doe sit 'know' not to use a number you have set as a short address? If you have short address 20, and also program some locos to consist with CV19 = 20, the single unit will move with the consist. This is why I wonder if the NCE way really does program CV19 or if it simply keeps track of which loco addresses you add to the consist. Also the need to program what functions in a CV19 consist are active is a decoder function so that pretty much rules out NCE setting CV19 when you consist - you'd have the same function problem you do in a Digitrax advanced consist. I beleive NCE is using the same methodolgy that Digitrax calls UniVersal consisting.

The difference being that other systems don't use the 'slot' concept to store addresses and so aren't as easily 'filled up' by having too many locos selected. There are advantages of both methods. And disadvantages. There has to be SOME limit as there isn;t infinite memory in the system to store all the addresses. And at some point you're going to have so many data packets being sent out that the throughput of the DCC signal will not be enough to control them all without excessive delays. What is that number that will overwhelm the DCC signal? I have no idea. Probably large - 255 or more. Or there will be so many addresses to check adn send command for that the command station processor will be overwhelmed.

 I'm sort of surprised no one has made a tool for JMRI that plays aroudn with the consists for Digitrax - there's no reason why they could't do a Universal consist and handle it the way NCE does, allowing you to flip the lead and trailing unit at will. One simple button click should be able to do that - and also you should be able to trigger it off with perhaps a switch address - that could get complicated though as you'd need a different trigger for each operator so it only flipped the consist they were running. The capability is there though to do this. There is a rudimentary consist tool in there to make and break consists but it doesn't have the other functionality of swapping the 'top' loco.

                                                 --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by CSX Robert on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:08 PM
When you create a consist using NCE, it suggests the next available consist address and you have the option of using the one it suggests or changing it. At that point, it is your responsibility to make sure you don't use an address that is assigned to a locomotive. NCE does program the consist address into the locos you add to the consist. You do not have to tell the lead loco what functions are active because NCE automatically sends function commands to the lead loco, if you have one designated. When creating the consist, you have the option of designating a lead loco and also the option of a rear loco. If you have a lead and a rear, then NCE can use either one as an alias for the consist. This is handy because you don't have to remember which end of the consist is the lead. If you want to run a consist, you select whichever loco would be in the front for the direction you want to go in and select forward, and the command station automatically sends the correct commands to move the consist in that direction.

The fastest the command station can send out commands is somewhere around 250 commands per second, and if you are using zero stretching(running a DC locomotive), that number would be a lot smaller. That means that with the 120 slot table of a DCS100 full, you could have close to half a second delay between sending a command and seeing the results. I believe commands that change a setting are sent to the front of the queue, so you usually don't see that kind of a delay, but with a lot of operators, you could see noticable delays.

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Posted by Paul3 on Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:17 AM

All this work and thought to MU some locos with Advanced consisting, and people think it's better?  Sheesh.

With Universal consisting, you select the lead engine number (it doesn't even have to be a real engine on the layout), then select each trailing unit and add it to the lead unit.  When running, the lead number would play independant sounds (horn, bell, etc.) but all units rev up their engine sounds.  It's pretty simple, and always works the same way no matter who's decoder it is.

I don't know much about Advanced consisting other than what's been put here, but I know that Model Railroad News once had a multi-page article on how to MU with Advanced consisting some oddly different loco brands.  I just shook my head when I saw that.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

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