jag,
If it were me, I'd bite the bullet. DCC is just so much more fun and realistic to operate than running DC that's it's a no-brainer - for me. You are wise to consider the whole picture; what things you both gain and inherit with a new technology.
Cost for decoders: $12-25 (non-sound) - Depends on number of lighting functions you want.
Cost for DCC system: Depends
These are just a few of the important questions to answer before discussing price and capability of a DCC system. You're asking questions though. That's the important thing.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'll second Tom's recommendation. DCC is just so much better that I can't even think of going back to DC. I've got a relatively small layout, 5x12 feet, and it just wouldn't be practical to block it for DC use. DCC, on the other hand, give me full independent control of each engine, plus the ability to "MU" multiple engines and run them as one.
Installing DCC in a truly "DCC-Ready" loco is as simple as removing a jumper card and plugging in the decoder. The hardest part is getting the shell off. (DCC-Ready, unfortunately, means different things to different manufacturers.) Equipping an older locomotive might mean electrically isolating the motor, and then soldering (typically) 7 wires: 2 to track power, 2 to the motor, 1 each to the front and rear headlights, and 1 headlight common. If you're handy with a soldering iron, give yourself about an hour for the first few, and less after that as you gain experience.
Before you buy a decoder, though, listen to a sound locomotive, either at a shop, show, club or online. The addition of sound adds so much to the overall effect that many of us seldom run our non-sound engines anymore. You don't have to run sound, of course, and you can mix and match as much as you want, but you might not want to equip your whole fleet with non-sound decoders only to turn around and want to replace them with sound later.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
justaboutgeese wrote:do I bite the bullet now and buy into it or continue on as in the past.
inexperience might win out at this point.
How much would I need to spend to get this off the ground and equip say fifteen or twenty locos to start with ??
David,
Absolutely. Be my guest. Good additional questions indeed to consider and ponder. That's why I specified it as "just a few of the important questions".
Even if your local hobby shops can't help, you can get an internet hobby shop for DCC. I recommend Litchfield Station, www.litchfieldstation.com. Bruce is very willing to answer email, and he and his wife, Linda, offer outstanding service.
Gary
Quite a few years ago, I had a layout. All divided into blocks and wired for two cabs. As far as I remember, I rarely ran two at a time. It just seemed difficult at the time.
A few months back, I finally got a chance to start fresh after 20+ years. I read about DCC and checked out some of the sound available. Bought a starter set before I ever had a piece of track layed. It's just so much more fun to be able to punch in a loco number and run it. You don't care where it is on the track, you just run it. Oh, I want to let that one go and run another, punch in another number and there's 2 under full control just by hitting a button or two.
And the addition of sound and lighting effects makes it lots more fun too. Not to mention custom tailoring the speed characteristics of any loco you care to. Just so many plusses in my mind, helps make the choice a little easier.
Just for information, I am starting out (again) with a U-shape about twelve feet on each end of the U and sixteen feet accross the base. It in essence is a double dogbone with a medium size yard, a logging shortline and as many local industries as I care to squeeze in. My interest is in the running aspect. I have access to the entire room which is sixteen by fourty. But based on past experience the larger the layout the more maintainance is required. I can start here and expand later. I currently own twenty to thirty locos and uncounted rolling stock. Much of which has been stored for many years.
Just having moved to the area (about 30 miles north of San Antonio, Texas.) I am not yet acquainted with any clubs or modelers as of yet. The LHS left me with mixed feelings but if I can get this started as was stated in a previous post for $500.00. Though I do believe I would be more inclined to hire atleast the first conversion or atleast some of the trickier ones done. I am at the place where I now have to decide very soon which unit will suit my needs and which of the decoders are the best value. If my LHS cannot supply my needs there is mail order, the internet and eBay. I will concede when I stopped and purchased thirty six switches and a hundred feet of flex track he was genuinly thankful for the sale. He gave me a bit of a discount and I had enough to get me started again.
When I got back into HO 3 years ago, I avoided DCC. My biggest mistake. Now I have it with radio and love it. As to the brass problem:
1, I was able to put a sound decoder and speaker into one. It was easy. The others will get it eventually.
2. Until the others get decoders the only limitation is I can only run one at a time and they have to sit on a dead track when not the engine of choice. A SPST switch does that.
GO FOR DCC
The most recent issue of the Layout Design Special Interest Group Journal had an article by a member who had just torn out his old layout and was starting over.
The article listed his learnings and what he was going to do different this time.
STARTING OVER RIGHT THIS TIME
Near the top of his list was to go DCC this time. He said he went straight DC before, thinking it would be simpler and he would save money.
He said he was wrong on both counts.
The complexity and cost of all the toggles and wiring to run multiple trains was not insignificant, and worse yet -- it would take him (no joke) all evening to explain to someone how to just run a train around the layout -- and even then they would get confused and screw up. There's a high-tech facility nearby, and many of his operators were atomic engineers -- and it *still* took them all night to figure out how to just run a simple train around the layout.
He said not going with DCC to start with was one of his single biggest mistakes!
NEWCOMERS USING DCC ON MY OWN LAYOUT
I can tell you from personal experience, he's right on target. With my HO Siskiyou Line, which is a larger basement-sized layout, I just hand a newcomer one of my NCE wireless engineer throttles and then give them the instructions:
1. Press select loco.
2. Type in the loco number on the cab.
3. Press enter.
4. Have fun running your train!
Of course, the newcomers are paired with an experienced conductor and they have to go when the conductor says go and stop when the conductor says stop (and the conductor gets his instructions from the dispatcher), but that's not at all hard.
DCC IS SIMPLER!
The point is, with DCC, you just dial up your loco and go! It doesn't get much simpler than that.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
I operated for three months on my very first layout using a simple MRC power supply. I had wired my main loop and one spiral spur with a total of three feeder sets off a 10' bus. There were no toggles, no blocks that required them...just a bus and three pairs of feeders more or less equidistant around my track plan. One day I decided I wanted two engines. Problem was, if I wanted one to run around the track, the other would have to at the same time. Suddenly my BLI engines with decoders were just another DC blocking problem.
I decided one day to order a DCC system. When it came, I removed the two leads at the terminals of the MRC and installed them on the two terminals of the DB150 from Digitrax. I was in business as fast as I could make one of my two engines respond to an address other than "03", which all decoders default to as soon as they get DCC signal and without prior programming. Needless to say, with ten minutes of reading and addressing one engine, I was running one of them while the other waited patiently for a command. It would have been impossible just 15 minutes earlier with my layout wired as one big block.
DCC is as simple as that for most of us. For bigger layouts with heavier demands for power, it makes sense to break the track plan into power districts. That will become clear and easy to comprehend with about 20 minutes of online reading at a place like Tony's Train Exchange.
jfugate wrote: NEWCOMERS USING DCC ON MY OWN LAYOUTI can tell you from personal experience, he's right on target. With my HO Siskiyou Line, which is a larger basement-sized layout, I just hand a newcomer one of my NCE wireless engineer throttles and then give them the instructions:1. Press select loco.2. Type in the loco number on the cab.3. Press enter.4. Have fun running your train!Of course, the newcomers are paired with an experienced conductor and they have to go when the conductor says go and stop when the conductor says stop (and the conductor gets his instructions from the dispatcher), but that's not at all hard.
Having had the pleasure of attending a Siskiyou Line operating session on Joe's layout last October, I can vouch for this. It was easier that falling off a log, and you could concentrate on operating the train. There in no question that DCC is simpler, and I am not convinced that is nearly as much more expensive as some make it out to be. And the benefits are HUGE!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:Having had the pleasure of attending a Siskiyou Line operating session on Joe's layout last October, I can vouch for this. It was easier that falling off a log, and you could concentrate on operating the train. There in no question that DCC is simpler, and I am not convinced that is nearly as much more expensive as some make it out to be. And the benefits are HUGE!
Hey, Jeff, that's right!
You can hear Jeff offscreen in this video report from the October op session, and if you look closely at the end of this video clip, the guy in the "yellow" shirt center screen in the lower deck area is none other than Jeff!
Jeff, since your visit, the super-duper NCE wireless upgrade has made using the wireless NCE throttles every bit as good as being plugged in ... wireless and DCC -- running trains doesn't get much better!
I would agree with David and hold off on the Dynamis for now.
The Bachmann Dynamis, although released last year in Europe, is brand new to the US market. Bachmann first came out with their E-Z Command DCC system a few years back. Even though it's a decent system, it is limited in what it can do. The new Bachmann Dynamis will probably be a very nice DCC system that will be able to adjust and tweak CVs that it's smaller brother, the E-Z Command, can't do.
I would agree. The Digitrax Zephyr and the NCE Power Cab can be had for less and are proven systems. I would look at these first.
My ...
justaboutgeese wrote: Well I guess I did it. I ordered an NCE Power Cab...Now that the basic unit is on its way what else am I going to need ?
Good choice, jag! I've had my Power Cab for over 2 years and have been very happy with it.
Well, while you wait for your Power Cab to show up in the mail, you could read up on DCC and wiring. If you haven't read it already, here's a good primer on DCC from Tony's Train Exchange web site:
DCC for Beginners
You can either read it online or download it onto your computer as a .pdf file. If you are more knowledgable and comfortable about electricity, Allen Gartner's Wiring for DCC web site is terrific, too.
Joe Fugate also has a very nice DVD called Vol. 3: Electrical and control secrets that gives some handy pointers about how to wire you layout up for DCC, troubleshooting with terminal strips, using Decoder Pro to speed match locomotives, and short management - just to name a few.
jfugate wrote:The most recent issue of the Layout Design Special Interest Group Journal had an article by a member who had just torn out his old layout and was starting over.The article listed his learnings and what he was going to do different this time. STARTING OVER RIGHT THIS TIME Near the top of his list was to go DCC this time. He said he went straight DC before, thinking it would be simpler and he would save money.He said he was wrong on both counts. The complexity and cost of all the toggles and wiring to run multiple trains was not insignificant, and worse yet -- it would take him (no joke) all evening to explain to someone how to just run a train around the layout -- and even then they would get confused and screw up. There's a high-tech facility nearby, and many of his operators were atomic engineers -- and it *still* took them all night to figure out how to just run a simple train around the layout.He said not going with DCC to start with was one of his single biggest mistakes!NEWCOMERS USING DCC ON MY OWN LAYOUT I can tell you from personal experience, he's right on target. With my HO Siskiyou Line, which is a larger basement-sized layout, I just hand a newcomer one of my NCE wireless engineer throttles and then give them the instructions:1. Press select loco.2. Type in the loco number on the cab.3. Press enter.4. Have fun running your train!Of course, the newcomers are paired with an experienced conductor and they have to go when the conductor says go and stop when the conductor says stop (and the conductor gets his instructions from the dispatcher), but that's not at all hard. DCC IS SIMPLER! The point is, with DCC, you just dial up your loco and go! It doesn't get much simpler than that.
davidmbedard wrote: ...please dont buy the Bachmann elcheapos, they are quite limited and dont have some features that you want in DCC (speed table for one).David B
...please dont buy the Bachmann elcheapos, they are quite limited and dont have some features that you want in DCC (speed table for one).
David B
You keep mentioning the speed table thing. I'm assuming you're talking about CV's 3 and 4? Here is a table of the supported CV's in the bachmann decoders, upper right corner:
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
davidmbedard wrote: You keep mentioning the speed table thing. I'm assuming you're talking about CV's 3 and 4? Here is a table of the supported CV's in the bachmann decoders, upper right corner:No, a speed table has nothing to do with CVs 3 and 4 (they control momentum). Notice the decoder has no CV 5 or CV 6 or even a 28 speed step table for that matter (which is a feature of other basic decoders).A great way to see what decoder has what features is to download Decoder Pro and looking at their features. If you bring up the Bachmann decoders and compare them to something that costs just a few dollars more, you will see that the Bachmann decoders are NOT a good buy. You will have to replace them in the future if you want to MU anything.David B
No, a speed table has nothing to do with CVs 3 and 4 (they control momentum). Notice the decoder has no CV 5 or CV 6 or even a 28 speed step table for that matter (which is a feature of other basic decoders).
A great way to see what decoder has what features is to download Decoder Pro and looking at their features. If you bring up the Bachmann decoders and compare them to something that costs just a few dollars more, you will see that the Bachmann decoders are NOT a good buy. You will have to replace them in the future if you want to MU anything.
Oh, I see. Thank you for informing me on the speed table matter, I'll take this as a lesson for me to do some research in the future .
The only reason I have these decoders (3 of them) is that they came as a bundle deal when I bought the DCC system (yes the dreaded EZ command). As far as muing goes, one of the decoders will go into an engine that will always run by itself, so no need for the speed table. I'll only need to outputs for said loco as well, so the bachmann decoder will be fine in that regard.
Thanks for the info, I'll keep away from the bmann decoders, at least I'm only stuck with 3.
jasperofzeal wrote:...that they came as a bundle deal when I bought the DCC system (yes the dreaded EZ command).
It does what it does. And what it does do it does quite well. It's just a limited DCC system. I'd would still take it over DC any day.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I started out in DC because I thought DCC was going to be too complicated. I finally made the jump and found out that it is really not that hard at all and the ability to run multiple trains on the same track is a dream come true. For basic DCC the wiring is as simple if not simpler than DC esecvially if you are using DC blocks. Also if you done basic levels of engine disassembly for painting and ligting then you will also be able to install decoders. I use Digtirax so I can't speak for other DCC manufactures but any question that I have had I was able to find an answer to on the Digtirax website.
My suggestion is go for DCC.... you will not regret it.
Yes, I agree that the NCE Power Cab is a good choice. The Digitrax Zephyr has a few more features for those who want to make the DC to DCC transition more slowly and the Zephyr has a slightly higher amp limit.
I personally prefer NCE's simple-and-obvious button labels (SELECT LOCO vs. Sel, CONSIST SETUP vs MU, CONSIST ADD vs T+), and I am partial to the PowerCab's handheld form factor over the Zephyr's power pack form factor.
If you ever want to upgrade your PowerCab system for a larger layout, you should skip the Smart Booster and go straight to the ProCab. Unlike the Zephyr, NCE's upgrade path to a full-blown system is not as smooth and will cost a bit more -- but you also get a computer interface in the process with NCE -- and that costs extra if you go with Digitrax.
Like everything, there are pros and cons to each system. But for beginners, I recommend either the NCE PowerCab or the Digitrax Zephyr -- so you're starting off right!
Justaboutgeese, at this point I am sure Tom (T-Stage) is sorry he sold me his old E-Z Command. I am still a big fan of the simple system, it is running 3 main lines as I miss spell! $175.00 is way high for a E-Z. On E-bay you should find them for around $57.00 or so. At one point before I went DCC I was worried about the driffrent systems F fuctions. They run driffrent lighting and sound options, some of my Engines have up to 28 F fuctions. More than a few people asked me if I want to push buttons or run trains? Well, run trains. Most allso stated they hardly used anything over F-9, E-Z can do that.
One draw back is sort of a plus. You cannot change CV's! No, you cannot change the sound level, starting speed or other iteams. On the other hand, you cannot hit the wrong botton either and mess up the CV's!
I did up grade with a MRC Power Station 8 Amp power booster, for only $120.00 I now have the power to run as many trains I can fit on the apx 175 feet of main lines.
I will up grade to a Zepher for only one reason, I will soon want radio control. With the 8 Amp booster I don't have to worry about the Zepher 2.5 amp power supply. That was the main thing that keept me from buying the Zepher, was 2.5 amps going to power everthing?
For a start a $60.00 Bachmann E-Z is hard to beat.
Keeping it simple again Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Hi from Oz,
I have been running DCC for about five years. I have a NCE Pro Cab and a Power Cab which I use on my small exhibition layout. The Power Cab throttle also doubles as an extra Pro Cab throttle when I am operating my home layout. I have about 45 locos and many of them are sounded. I would completely endorse the comments of others - DCC is much easier and fun to use. I am electronically challenged but find programming and installation of decoders reasonably straight forward. The price of DCC systems has fallen considerably since I first bought mine and now they are a very attractive option. If you are starting out, DCC should be a serious consideration.
Kind Regards from Downunder
MisterBeasley wrote:Before you buy a decoder, though, listen to a sound locomotive, either at a shop, show, club or online. The addition of sound adds so much to the overall effect that many of us seldom run our non-sound engines anymore. You don't have to run sound, of course, and you can mix and match as much as you want, but you might not want to equip your whole fleet with non-sound decoders only to turn around and want to replace them with sound later.
I agree about sound. If you can afford it at all, go for it. I'm returning to building railroads, not just reading about them, after 44 years, so I went to a show (a big one, so it was called an 'exhibition') to look at DCC and sound and was knocked over by the sound of half a dozen diesels idling, starting, ... all the usual noises. I hadn't expected the sound quality to be nearly as good as it was. Once you've experienced sound, you won't want to be without it. Now, how do I convert my United brass 2-8-0?
I have sort of already decided that several of my favorate engines will be sound equiped. But three of them are brass and two of the others are not DCC ready. I was thinking I would do some of the simpler ones to start with and "phase them in" so to speak as time goes on. There is still much work to be done on the layout. At this point I was so anxious just to put somthing on the track thats just what I did. Much track to be put down yet. Much less wiring now thanks to DCC, scenery, details yards and sawmills and forests. This sound like so much I hope I still have time to fish a bit and enjoy a round of golf once in awhile.
I have not had much luck yet finding the NDE decoders in bulk but I am sure some dealer will come up with a deal for me.
jfugate,FYI, the Zephyr's loco selection button is "LOCO" not "Sel". "SEL" was used on the now-defunct DT100, DT200 & DT300 throttles, and is used on the current UT4 throttle. The DT400 throttle also uses "LOCO".
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************