justaboutgeese wrote: My ignorance is showing again. This might be a learing curve but at my age its a long slow pull up a 4% grade. "IF" these decoders are pretty much compatable with each other why do we have 4 pin, eight pin and nine pin configurations ? I thought I had the cat in the bag yesterday about to order 6 NCE decoders when this question popd into mind. I fear you guys might get fed up with me on this subject but I really do appreciate the advice and pointers I have been given.
justabout:
Most new locos these days come with an 8-pin socket on the loco circuit board, so that's the closest thing to a "standard" when it comes to DCC plug and play with decoders. Typically, the decoder wire harness comes with an 8-pin plug that plugs right in.
The 9-pin configuration is a decoder edge-card socket at the other end of the wire harness, and the decoder plugs into it, giving you a way to swap out decoders on the wire harness -- and since there's commonly an 8-pin plug on the other end of the wiring harness, it then plugs into the loco circuit board socket.
A few locos come with a built-in wire harness and a 9 pin decoder socket at the end. Many HO decoders are designed to have the 9-pin edge card design, making it very easy to mix and match decoders with wire harnesses.
So what you commonly see are wire harnesses of various lengths, with an 8 pin plug on one end, and a 9-pin decoder edge card socket on the other. Very convenient!
I've never heard of a 4-pin plug ... where did you see that?
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
justaboutgeese wrote:I have not had much luck yet finding the NDE decoders in bulk but I am sure some dealer will come up with a deal for me.
jag,
Try this site:
Empire Northern - D13SRJ
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Randall_Roberts wrote: justaboutgeese wrote: ...in the long run this might not really cost any more than having to buy dozens of DPDT switches and many, many feet of wire. You got that right. justaboutgeese wrote:Now that the basic unit is on its way what else am I going to need ? Stationary decoders for your turnouts.
justaboutgeese wrote: ...in the long run this might not really cost any more than having to buy dozens of DPDT switches and many, many feet of wire.
You got that right.
justaboutgeese wrote:Now that the basic unit is on its way what else am I going to need ?
Stationary decoders for your turnouts.
But only if you want to throw them with DCC. Lots of people don't.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I have been using Digitrax DH123 PS and DH163PS for none sound engines from K-10 Model Trains in Maryville IL. I get a small break in the prices but his normal sticker on the DH123PS is $19.95 and $27.95 on the DH163PS.
K-10 does not sell on line, but if you will buy from him I will use my dicount so shipping will be free. If you buy 4 or so I will get you a break.
Got to support your LHS Ken, posting again.
I hate Rust
jfugate,FYI, the Zephyr's loco selection button is "LOCO" not "Sel". "SEL" was used on the now-defunct DT100, DT200 & DT300 throttles, and is used on the current UT4 throttle. The DT400 throttle also uses "LOCO".
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
I have sort of already decided that several of my favorate engines will be sound equiped. But three of them are brass and two of the others are not DCC ready. I was thinking I would do some of the simpler ones to start with and "phase them in" so to speak as time goes on. There is still much work to be done on the layout. At this point I was so anxious just to put somthing on the track thats just what I did. Much track to be put down yet. Much less wiring now thanks to DCC, scenery, details yards and sawmills and forests. This sound like so much I hope I still have time to fish a bit and enjoy a round of golf once in awhile.
I have not had much luck yet finding the NDE decoders in bulk but I am sure some dealer will come up with a deal for me.
MisterBeasley wrote:Before you buy a decoder, though, listen to a sound locomotive, either at a shop, show, club or online. The addition of sound adds so much to the overall effect that many of us seldom run our non-sound engines anymore. You don't have to run sound, of course, and you can mix and match as much as you want, but you might not want to equip your whole fleet with non-sound decoders only to turn around and want to replace them with sound later.
Before you buy a decoder, though, listen to a sound locomotive, either at a shop, show, club or online. The addition of sound adds so much to the overall effect that many of us seldom run our non-sound engines anymore. You don't have to run sound, of course, and you can mix and match as much as you want, but you might not want to equip your whole fleet with non-sound decoders only to turn around and want to replace them with sound later.
I agree about sound. If you can afford it at all, go for it. I'm returning to building railroads, not just reading about them, after 44 years, so I went to a show (a big one, so it was called an 'exhibition') to look at DCC and sound and was knocked over by the sound of half a dozen diesels idling, starting, ... all the usual noises. I hadn't expected the sound quality to be nearly as good as it was. Once you've experienced sound, you won't want to be without it. Now, how do I convert my United brass 2-8-0?
Hi from Oz,
I have been running DCC for about five years. I have a NCE Pro Cab and a Power Cab which I use on my small exhibition layout. The Power Cab throttle also doubles as an extra Pro Cab throttle when I am operating my home layout. I have about 45 locos and many of them are sounded. I would completely endorse the comments of others - DCC is much easier and fun to use. I am electronically challenged but find programming and installation of decoders reasonably straight forward. The price of DCC systems has fallen considerably since I first bought mine and now they are a very attractive option. If you are starting out, DCC should be a serious consideration.
Kind Regards from Downunder
Justaboutgeese, at this point I am sure Tom (T-Stage) is sorry he sold me his old E-Z Command. I am still a big fan of the simple system, it is running 3 main lines as I miss spell! $175.00 is way high for a E-Z. On E-bay you should find them for around $57.00 or so. At one point before I went DCC I was worried about the driffrent systems F fuctions. They run driffrent lighting and sound options, some of my Engines have up to 28 F fuctions. More than a few people asked me if I want to push buttons or run trains? Well, run trains. Most allso stated they hardly used anything over F-9, E-Z can do that.
One draw back is sort of a plus. You cannot change CV's! No, you cannot change the sound level, starting speed or other iteams. On the other hand, you cannot hit the wrong botton either and mess up the CV's!
I did up grade with a MRC Power Station 8 Amp power booster, for only $120.00 I now have the power to run as many trains I can fit on the apx 175 feet of main lines.
I will up grade to a Zepher for only one reason, I will soon want radio control. With the 8 Amp booster I don't have to worry about the Zepher 2.5 amp power supply. That was the main thing that keept me from buying the Zepher, was 2.5 amps going to power everthing?
For a start a $60.00 Bachmann E-Z is hard to beat.
Keeping it simple again Cuda Ken
justaboutgeese wrote: Well I guess I did it. I ordered an NCE Power Cab...Now that the basic unit is on its way what else am I going to need ?
Yes, I agree that the NCE Power Cab is a good choice. The Digitrax Zephyr has a few more features for those who want to make the DC to DCC transition more slowly and the Zephyr has a slightly higher amp limit.
I personally prefer NCE's simple-and-obvious button labels (SELECT LOCO vs. Sel, CONSIST SETUP vs MU, CONSIST ADD vs T+), and I am partial to the PowerCab's handheld form factor over the Zephyr's power pack form factor.
If you ever want to upgrade your PowerCab system for a larger layout, you should skip the Smart Booster and go straight to the ProCab. Unlike the Zephyr, NCE's upgrade path to a full-blown system is not as smooth and will cost a bit more -- but you also get a computer interface in the process with NCE -- and that costs extra if you go with Digitrax.
Like everything, there are pros and cons to each system. But for beginners, I recommend either the NCE PowerCab or the Digitrax Zephyr -- so you're starting off right!
I started out in DC because I thought DCC was going to be too complicated. I finally made the jump and found out that it is really not that hard at all and the ability to run multiple trains on the same track is a dream come true. For basic DCC the wiring is as simple if not simpler than DC esecvially if you are using DC blocks. Also if you done basic levels of engine disassembly for painting and ligting then you will also be able to install decoders. I use Digtirax so I can't speak for other DCC manufactures but any question that I have had I was able to find an answer to on the Digtirax website.
My suggestion is go for DCC.... you will not regret it.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
jasperofzeal wrote:...that they came as a bundle deal when I bought the DCC system (yes the dreaded EZ command).
It does what it does. And what it does do it does quite well. It's just a limited DCC system. I'd would still take it over DC any day.
davidmbedard wrote: You keep mentioning the speed table thing. I'm assuming you're talking about CV's 3 and 4? Here is a table of the supported CV's in the bachmann decoders, upper right corner:No, a speed table has nothing to do with CVs 3 and 4 (they control momentum). Notice the decoder has no CV 5 or CV 6 or even a 28 speed step table for that matter (which is a feature of other basic decoders).A great way to see what decoder has what features is to download Decoder Pro and looking at their features. If you bring up the Bachmann decoders and compare them to something that costs just a few dollars more, you will see that the Bachmann decoders are NOT a good buy. You will have to replace them in the future if you want to MU anything.David B
You keep mentioning the speed table thing. I'm assuming you're talking about CV's 3 and 4? Here is a table of the supported CV's in the bachmann decoders, upper right corner:
No, a speed table has nothing to do with CVs 3 and 4 (they control momentum). Notice the decoder has no CV 5 or CV 6 or even a 28 speed step table for that matter (which is a feature of other basic decoders).
A great way to see what decoder has what features is to download Decoder Pro and looking at their features. If you bring up the Bachmann decoders and compare them to something that costs just a few dollars more, you will see that the Bachmann decoders are NOT a good buy. You will have to replace them in the future if you want to MU anything.
David B
Oh, I see. Thank you for informing me on the speed table matter, I'll take this as a lesson for me to do some research in the future .
The only reason I have these decoders (3 of them) is that they came as a bundle deal when I bought the DCC system (yes the dreaded EZ command). As far as muing goes, one of the decoders will go into an engine that will always run by itself, so no need for the speed table. I'll only need to outputs for said loco as well, so the bachmann decoder will be fine in that regard.
Thanks for the info, I'll keep away from the bmann decoders, at least I'm only stuck with 3.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
davidmbedard wrote: ...please dont buy the Bachmann elcheapos, they are quite limited and dont have some features that you want in DCC (speed table for one).David B
...please dont buy the Bachmann elcheapos, they are quite limited and dont have some features that you want in DCC (speed table for one).
jfugate wrote:The most recent issue of the Layout Design Special Interest Group Journal had an article by a member who had just torn out his old layout and was starting over.The article listed his learnings and what he was going to do different this time. STARTING OVER RIGHT THIS TIME Near the top of his list was to go DCC this time. He said he went straight DC before, thinking it would be simpler and he would save money.He said he was wrong on both counts. The complexity and cost of all the toggles and wiring to run multiple trains was not insignificant, and worse yet -- it would take him (no joke) all evening to explain to someone how to just run a train around the layout -- and even then they would get confused and screw up. There's a high-tech facility nearby, and many of his operators were atomic engineers -- and it *still* took them all night to figure out how to just run a simple train around the layout.He said not going with DCC to start with was one of his single biggest mistakes!NEWCOMERS USING DCC ON MY OWN LAYOUT I can tell you from personal experience, he's right on target. With my HO Siskiyou Line, which is a larger basement-sized layout, I just hand a newcomer one of my NCE wireless engineer throttles and then give them the instructions:1. Press select loco.2. Type in the loco number on the cab.3. Press enter.4. Have fun running your train!Of course, the newcomers are paired with an experienced conductor and they have to go when the conductor says go and stop when the conductor says stop (and the conductor gets his instructions from the dispatcher), but that's not at all hard. DCC IS SIMPLER! The point is, with DCC, you just dial up your loco and go! It doesn't get much simpler than that.
The most recent issue of the Layout Design Special Interest Group Journal had an article by a member who had just torn out his old layout and was starting over.
The article listed his learnings and what he was going to do different this time.
STARTING OVER RIGHT THIS TIME
Near the top of his list was to go DCC this time. He said he went straight DC before, thinking it would be simpler and he would save money.
He said he was wrong on both counts.
The complexity and cost of all the toggles and wiring to run multiple trains was not insignificant, and worse yet -- it would take him (no joke) all evening to explain to someone how to just run a train around the layout -- and even then they would get confused and screw up. There's a high-tech facility nearby, and many of his operators were atomic engineers -- and it *still* took them all night to figure out how to just run a simple train around the layout.
He said not going with DCC to start with was one of his single biggest mistakes!
NEWCOMERS USING DCC ON MY OWN LAYOUT
I can tell you from personal experience, he's right on target. With my HO Siskiyou Line, which is a larger basement-sized layout, I just hand a newcomer one of my NCE wireless engineer throttles and then give them the instructions:
1. Press select loco.
2. Type in the loco number on the cab.
3. Press enter.
4. Have fun running your train!
Of course, the newcomers are paired with an experienced conductor and they have to go when the conductor says go and stop when the conductor says stop (and the conductor gets his instructions from the dispatcher), but that's not at all hard.
DCC IS SIMPLER!
The point is, with DCC, you just dial up your loco and go! It doesn't get much simpler than that.
Good choice, jag! I've had my Power Cab for over 2 years and have been very happy with it.
Well, while you wait for your Power Cab to show up in the mail, you could read up on DCC and wiring. If you haven't read it already, here's a good primer on DCC from Tony's Train Exchange web site:
DCC for Beginners
You can either read it online or download it onto your computer as a .pdf file. If you are more knowledgable and comfortable about electricity, Allen Gartner's Wiring for DCC web site is terrific, too.
Joe Fugate also has a very nice DVD called Vol. 3: Electrical and control secrets that gives some handy pointers about how to wire you layout up for DCC, troubleshooting with terminal strips, using Decoder Pro to speed match locomotives, and short management - just to name a few.
I would agree with David and hold off on the Dynamis for now.
The Bachmann Dynamis, although released last year in Europe, is brand new to the US market. Bachmann first came out with their E-Z Command DCC system a few years back. Even though it's a decent system, it is limited in what it can do. The new Bachmann Dynamis will probably be a very nice DCC system that will be able to adjust and tweak CVs that it's smaller brother, the E-Z Command, can't do.
I would agree. The Digitrax Zephyr and the NCE Power Cab can be had for less and are proven systems. I would look at these first.
My ...
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:Having had the pleasure of attending a Siskiyou Line operating session on Joe's layout last October, I can vouch for this. It was easier that falling off a log, and you could concentrate on operating the train. There in no question that DCC is simpler, and I am not convinced that is nearly as much more expensive as some make it out to be. And the benefits are HUGE!
Having had the pleasure of attending a Siskiyou Line operating session on Joe's layout last October, I can vouch for this. It was easier that falling off a log, and you could concentrate on operating the train. There in no question that DCC is simpler, and I am not convinced that is nearly as much more expensive as some make it out to be. And the benefits are HUGE!
Hey, Jeff, that's right!
You can hear Jeff offscreen in this video report from the October op session, and if you look closely at the end of this video clip, the guy in the "yellow" shirt center screen in the lower deck area is none other than Jeff!
Jeff, since your visit, the super-duper NCE wireless upgrade has made using the wireless NCE throttles every bit as good as being plugged in ... wireless and DCC -- running trains doesn't get much better!
jfugate wrote: NEWCOMERS USING DCC ON MY OWN LAYOUTI can tell you from personal experience, he's right on target. With my HO Siskiyou Line, which is a larger basement-sized layout, I just hand a newcomer one of my NCE wireless engineer throttles and then give them the instructions:1. Press select loco.2. Type in the loco number on the cab.3. Press enter.4. Have fun running your train!Of course, the newcomers are paired with an experienced conductor and they have to go when the conductor says go and stop when the conductor says stop (and the conductor gets his instructions from the dispatcher), but that's not at all hard.
I operated for three months on my very first layout using a simple MRC power supply. I had wired my main loop and one spiral spur with a total of three feeder sets off a 10' bus. There were no toggles, no blocks that required them...just a bus and three pairs of feeders more or less equidistant around my track plan. One day I decided I wanted two engines. Problem was, if I wanted one to run around the track, the other would have to at the same time. Suddenly my BLI engines with decoders were just another DC blocking problem.
I decided one day to order a DCC system. When it came, I removed the two leads at the terminals of the MRC and installed them on the two terminals of the DB150 from Digitrax. I was in business as fast as I could make one of my two engines respond to an address other than "03", which all decoders default to as soon as they get DCC signal and without prior programming. Needless to say, with ten minutes of reading and addressing one engine, I was running one of them while the other waited patiently for a command. It would have been impossible just 15 minutes earlier with my layout wired as one big block.
DCC is as simple as that for most of us. For bigger layouts with heavier demands for power, it makes sense to break the track plan into power districts. That will become clear and easy to comprehend with about 20 minutes of online reading at a place like Tony's Train Exchange.
When I got back into HO 3 years ago, I avoided DCC. My biggest mistake. Now I have it with radio and love it. As to the brass problem:
1, I was able to put a sound decoder and speaker into one. It was easy. The others will get it eventually.
2. Until the others get decoders the only limitation is I can only run one at a time and they have to sit on a dead track when not the engine of choice. A SPST switch does that.
GO FOR DCC