richhotrain Whatever the outcome tonight, I wish that the OP had taken up my suggestion yesterday to remove the two crossovers and test the two mains to verify that everything else...
Whatever the outcome tonight, I wish that the OP had taken up my suggestion yesterday to remove the two crossovers and test the two mains to verify that everything else...
Unfortunately that was not possible without causing much damage.
I can still run straight track in place of that one turnout Before I replace it. I just can't remove the other three turnouts.
[quote user="trafficdesign"]
[quote user="richhotrain"]
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain But, now you have to take it up anyhow. I don't want to see you damage your layout, but if you want to get that reversing section up and running, you have to get to the bottom of the problem.
But, now you have to take it up anyhow. I don't want to see you damage your layout, but if you want to get that reversing section up and running, you have to get to the bottom of the problem.
I can still run straight track in place of that one turnout before I replace it if you think that will tell us anything... I just can't remove the other three turnouts without irreversable damage.
BMMECNYC Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring. Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it.
Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring.
Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it.
trafficdesign richhotrain But, now you have to take it up anyhow. I don't want to see you damage your layout, but if you want to get that reversing section up and running, you have to get to the bottom of the problem. I can still run straight track in place of that one turnout before I replace it if you think that will tell us anything... I just can't remove the other three turnouts without irreversable damage.
trafficdesign BMMECNYC Can you also do 1 other thing. I want to make sure every one has a clear picture of where the short is occuring. Can you place a locomotive at the exact location where this problem is occuring and take a picture & upload. (need a close up and a distant photo). Better yet, run the locomotive to the location until it stops, then shut off the power to the layout and take the picture. This will help diagnose the problem further if the new turnout doesnt fix it. Will do as soon as the new turnout is in - assuming that it does not correct the problem.
Will do as soon as the new turnout is in - assuming that it does not correct the problem.
That sounds perfect.
Added straight track and still get the short at gap #1. Trying turnout next...
rrinker It's already wired in phase, so doing the end loops is easy. It's great and all trying to save $29.95 (retail) for another AR, but this has been going on for how long now which means just a lot of frustration and no train running. Yes I'm sure it can work this way, but it is EASIER to understand if just the end loops are isolated. Which has been my point all along. Days of frustration and aggravation aren't worth it to save less than $30 in my book, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be FUN. Yes, it's a hobby so that means available funding may be tight, but rathe rmy layout up and running for the fractional part of the cost of a new loco than have the new loco but now ay to run it because I'm still troubleshooting electrical problems. --Randy
It's already wired in phase, so doing the end loops is easy.
It's great and all trying to save $29.95 (retail) for another AR, but this has been going on for how long now which means just a lot of frustration and no train running. Yes I'm sure it can work this way, but it is EASIER to understand if just the end loops are isolated. Which has been my point all along. Days of frustration and aggravation aren't worth it to save less than $30 in my book, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be FUN. Yes, it's a hobby so that means available funding may be tight, but rathe rmy layout up and running for the fractional part of the cost of a new loco than have the new loco but now ay to run it because I'm still troubleshooting electrical problems.
--Randy
New Turnout is in and no difference. Still shorts at the same point. Gap #1.
I have decided that I am taking a week off from trains as this as it's just not at all enjoyable anymore. My family is beginning to wonder why I go down to the basement and never come up... It IS supposed to be FUN, right?
After a week away from the trains, I am planning on rewiring the layout and starting from scratch with a new wiring approach. I plan to make the end loops the reversing sections and stick to 'red rear' as Randy suggested all along. Simple and easy is all I want at this point!!!!
Thanks all for your help, patience and suggestions... I owe you one!!! It's time to end this 9-pager (is this a record???). Hopefully after a couple of weeks, a couple of bottles (more than a couple I fear) and a new wiring approach, my next post will be to tell you all that the trains are running!!!!
P.S. Good news is that I learned A LOT about track polarity, wiring protocols and how to use a Multimeter to check continuity (thanks to your help) so it was time well spent... it's just time to stop troubleshooting and time to start running trains.
Trafficdesign,
Really can't say, I blame you. Can be frustrating. BUT...You should have taken the time to find out for sure, whether it was a short or a stall. With all the advice given, it should have worked, without a methodical testing of why it didn't, it leaves many unaswered questions that may go on repeating themselves in old ways of doing things.
A suggestion: While you are taking a break, build yourself one of these, so when you start to assemble your trackwork and do Your wiring again you will have it ready. Not hard to build, not expensive. Keep it connected to your track, while installing and wiring, if under layout, when buzzer sounds....you have created a short and you don't have to look at a light or meter.
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2012-03-mar/audible_short_detector
Take Care!
Frank
zstripe Trafficdesign, Really can't say, I blame you. Can be frustrating. BUT...You should have taken the time to find out for sure, whether it was a short or a stall. With all the advice given, it should have worked, without a methodical testing of why it didn't, it leaves many unaswered questions that may go on repeating themselves in old ways of doing things.
Agreed. That would be ideal, however I was getting nowhere and my hope is that a new and fresh approach will solve the problem.
zstripe A suggestion: While you are taking a break, build yourself one of these, so when you start to assemble your trackwork and do Your wiring again you will have it ready. Not hard to build, not expensive. Keep it connected to your track, while installing and wiring, if under layout, when buzzer sounds....you have created a short and you don't have to look at a light or meter. http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2012-03-mar/audible_short_detector Take Care! Frank
Great idea and neat device... Useful! Thanks.
The problem is in the execution of the original concept, not the concept itself. A new concept will not correct the underlying problem.
Am taking a week off from the trains but then I will add track feeders to all sides of the turnouts in the reversing section to insure adequate power flows to and from the AR1
OK, at the risk of extending this thread to a tenth page, I have prepared a pair of track diagrams to demonstrate how the reversing section will work.
I would like to throw down the following challenge. If someone will tell me why this reversing section will not work, I will stop replying to this thread.
The top diagram is how the layout is currently wired. Trace the movement of a loco heading east bound on the north main. As it crosses gap #4, polarities match and the loco proceeds to gap #3, polarities match, and the loco proceeds to gap #2. At gap #2, the polarities do not match, so as the loco crosses the gap, the AR-1 senses the short and flips the polarities to match, as shown in the bottom diagram, and the loco proceeds west bound on the south main to gap #1. At gap #1, the polarities now match, so the loco proceeds across gap #1 and on to the end of the loop.
Now, as the loco returns to gap #4, the polarities are reversed, as shown in the bottom diagram. The AR-1 senses the mismatch (impending short) and flips the polarities to match as shown in the top diagram, and the loco proceeds east bound on the north main. Incidentally, take a look at those crossovers and see how they work as part of the reversing section.
trafficdesign It didn't work!!!!!! HELP please.... as the lengthy posts above explain I am trying to build a reversing section with an AR1. I am getting a persistent short in one location after building the reversing loop as suggested.
It didn't work!!!!!! HELP please.... as the lengthy posts above explain I am trying to build a reversing section with an AR1. I am getting a persistent short in one location after building the reversing loop as suggested.
Ahh, but it does work !
I couldn't take it any longer, so this morning I set up a test track on the work bench, and created the reversing section that I designed for the OP back in January.
I placed the gaps exactly as I indicated back in January, and I wired it just like I told the OP to do. The outer rail of the oval has red feeders and the inner rail has blue feeders. I wired the reversing section to an auto-reverser, using just one set of feeders on the south main track between the crossovers.
Then, I ran 5 different routes and videotaped each one. You can view the results as follows:
Route 1 - East bound on north main through gap #4 and 3, returning west bound on south main through gap #2 and 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tbzrb-lDlo&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 2 - East bound on south main through gap #1 and 2, returning west bound on north main through gap #3 and 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTd65mTHXk&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 3 - West bound on the south main bypass outside of the reversing section.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeKXDyLh2V0&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 4 - West bound through the crossovers beginning and finishing on the south main with a brief visit to the north main between the crossovers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-20DaZGq0lU&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
Route 5 - One loco east bound on south main bypass and a second loco west bound on north main.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_vJ3_KDHqM&list=UU7Tvd7GsdwthTw7V3f0pgEw
As expected, no shorts on any of the routes. In fact, there could be a number of other routes and, of course, they all perform flawlessly, no shorts. You could have three locos operating simultaneously, one on the north main, one on the south main, and one on the south main bypass. Or two locos on each of the three tracks. The list of possible routes is virtually endless. Too bad that the OP doesn't have the space to add a fourth track, the north main bypass. Four or eight locos running simultaneously on four tracks.
Enjoy!!
Rich,
Now that's what I call Methodical.
Take Care! Richie.
Whoa ! Seriously ? Over six months later and this is still an on-going problem ?
After six months and the OP still hadn't done any continuity testing or verified whether he had a short or an open ?
Man, you guys got patience !
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Truth be told, Mark, this all appeared to be settled back in January, but then the thread resurfaced six months later when the OP got around to laying track and wiring the reversing section.
None of this should be a problem, however, in that the reversing section is simple to wire and gap. The big mystery here is that the problem is less than obvious since there doesn't seem to be anything wrong. But, there obviously is something wrong.
If I lived in Toronto, I am sure that I could solve this problem in 10 minutes. You are right in that there needs to be a methodical testing process brought to bear on this problem. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication going on here.
Mark R. Whoa ! Seriously ? Over six months later and this is still an on-going problem ? After six months and the OP still hadn't done any continuity testing or verified whether he had a short or an open ? Man, you guys got patience ! Mark.
This is a new issue, Mark. Obviously I wouldn't let this fester for 6 months. All seemed to be well and then it wasn't....
Not sure what went wrong but as I built out the section it stopped working. This is a mystery and I am very appreciative of all the help that I have received. The folks on this board have gone above and beyond in helping me get started in this hobby and I can only hope that when I figure it out I can share my experiences and what I have learned to help the next person figure it out.
I will be back at it in a week and hope to have it resolved then.
richhotrain Ahh, but it does work ! As expected, no shorts on any of the routes..... Enjoy!! Rich
As expected, no shorts on any of the routes.....
And now IT DOES!!!!! I'd just like to publicly thank Rich for his tireless patience, helpful diagrams and above-and-beyond support to help this novice through what what an amazing learning experience.
This hobby is in great shape if there are experienced modellers like Rich who exhibit such generousity with their time to help others. Is there an award for this??? There should be!!!
Thank you again to Rich and all the other posters who made this long thread end happily and successfully!
Let the trains roll....
Kudos to Traffic Design for sticking with this issue until he got the reversing section working.
I recently suggested that he wire a DPDT switch in place of the AR-1, and that got his locos running through the reversing section in all directions. So, this verified that the gaps and wiring were correct, leaving the AR-1 as the likely culprit. At this point, we cannot say if the AR-1 is faulty or if something else on the layout is interfering with the AR-1's proper performance. But, that's a mystery to be solved at a later point.