Looking for info on WWII Troop Train Consist

[Anonymous]

Hi, everybody!

Been working on a couple of WWII troop trains to run on our Capital City "N"Gineers NTrak layout. Looking at specifically 1943 to 1944 time frame.

Have visited Klein's passenger train website which has some great info on troop train consists. Also I downloaded a 13 minute movie from the national archives (over 200 Megs) which shows an armor division moving both men and equipment on the same train. Passenger equipment, and then flats following loaded with vehicles and such. Great stuff, and obviously censored but still very useful. Also got the book, "America's Fighting Railroads" and the book Railroad Decade: the 1940's.

My problem is this... what are the typical flat car lengthes for that time frame? I have photos showing 30' to 50' flats, with either one or two armor vehicles chucked per car. Some trains are strictly passenger trains, strictly flats with vehicles and war cargo, or both, which is what I want to model.

I'm looking for clear photo or text references of the military train consist . I do want to portray this consist fairly accurately. Any discussion is welcome.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[AltonFan]

During WWII, the typical "modern" flatcar of the era was 40'-50'. Flatcars shorter than that were either holdovers from the 36' car era (ended around World War I) or special-purpose cars.

Mr. Van Cleven,

Would you be kind enough to provide a link to the movie you mentioned?

Thanx,

[Anonymous]

I think you have answered your own question, unless you are wanting to model a specific individual train. Is it the one from the movie you want to replicate?

In general, I think railroads in the US and Canada basically pressed everything into service that wasn't falling apart. A lot of steamers that were due to be retired/scrapped were refurbished and kept on, same for rolling stock - any and all flats, box cars, passenger cars, and so on. Some people note that dieselization would have been a 1940's phenomenon, instead of 50s-60s if it weren't for the wartime restriction on building non-military equipment.

I think that the US military had their own trains at one point, but I don't have any details on that.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

You state that the video shows an armored division moving by train. That would be an extremely long train. It would need at least 70-100 troop cars alone as a division is 10,000-13,000 troops. The train would be transporting a batalion (around 300 troops). Consist would be about 10 troop sleepers and 1-2 kitchen cars and enough flat cars to transport vehicles and equipment. Total number of cars would be around 50-70 cars. I should know, I used to be on my units rail load team.
Ch

[Anonymous]

Marc--

Wayner's "Passenger Train Consists 1923-1973" lists the consist of a MAIN (troop) train on the Southern Ry. at Danville, VA on 12/24/43 with the following cars:
B&O baggage car
Pullman 16 section tourist car
Pullman 14 section 1st class car
Pullman 14 section tourist car
ACL baggage car equippped as kitchen
Pullman 10 section 2 drawing room 1st class car
Pullman 16 section tourist car
Three (3) Pullman troop sleepers
SAL baggage car equipped as kitchen
Pullman troop sleeper
Pullman 7 compartment 2 drawing room 1st class car
Pullman 12 section 1 drawing room 1st class car
Pullman 10 section buffet observation first class car.

--John

[Anonymous]

Troop sleepers were Just boxcars with bunkbeds in them, Same with kitchen cars and mess cars, converted Boxcars(or baggage cars) to specific needs. Standard sleepers would have been for the officers.

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: Wayner's "Passenger Train Consists 1923-1973" lists the consist of a MAIN (troop) train on the Southern Ry. at Danville, VA on 12/24/43 with the following cars:
B&O baggage car
Pullman 16 section tourist car
Pullman 14 section 1st class car
Pullman 14 section tourist car
ACL baggage car equippped as kitchen
Pullman 10 section 2 drawing room 1st class car
Pullman 16 section tourist car
Three (3) Pullman troop sleepers
SAL baggage car equipped as kitchen
Pullman troop sleeper
Pullman 7 compartment 2 drawing room 1st class car
Pullman 12 section 1 drawing room 1st class car
Pullman 10 section buffet observation first class car.

IIRC, the book also mentioned that this train ran as the second section of a regularly scheduled passenger train.

[Anonymous]

NTDN, the standard sleepers wouldn't always be for the officers as there where more enlisted than officers. Who slept where was up to the Company/Batallion commander.
Ch

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the discussion and inforamtion. I hope to continue this as it is rarely modeled to any great degree.

Per your reguests... here is the address for the movie I mentioned earlier. Please note it is all together as one line.

http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?collection=prelinger&collectionid=18999

PSNGRTRN, mentioned that I said the film shows an armor division moving to an unknown destination in 1943. He noted that the movement of an entire division would be extremely large and unlikely given the logostics. I reviewed it again earlier today, because what you said makes a lot of sense. Well guess what... Indeed they say a "division", but... if you watch it closely, what PSNGRTRN says is right on the money. It dawned on me that the train shown was not just one but a number of them. Remember that the film was produced for the War Department during WWII and was carefully censored.

For those of you interested... there are several different ways of viewing the film either complete or in part. I downloaded the editable MPEG4 version which is 220 Mb in size. I have DSL and it took me approximately 20 minutes to download. Well worth the wait.

I have a complete WWII Hospital Train, and enough equipment to put together a strictly passenger troop train. I'm working on replicating one of the trains shown in the film, and adding some of the elements evident in photos too. Its certainly a work in progress. Trying to use both N-Scale MiniFigs and 10mm Perrin Miniatures for military vehicles. Note: Perrin Miniatures are produced and sold here in Wisconsin, nice stuff, even though not quite N scale.

Marc

[Anonymous]

I found this video to be very informative. I dont think they did an entire armored division on that train, A stuart light tank had 3 men (I think) and there were about 300 to a division 2 to a 40 foot flat car yeilded a total of about 150 flats.

My feeling is that they moved by subunits in multiple trains. MAIN Trains to my understanding had piority over everything else on the rail.

I have witnessed a number of trains heading to ports south in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and the cargo is very well taken care of. I think they may have moved some heavy stuff at night and flown the troops overseas to mate with equiptment.

I have always believed that a strong fleet of merchants to carry the material over seas backed by a fleet of heavy transport aircraft can get the job done.

This video is one of the internet highlights of this hobby.. Thank you very much for allowing us the link to it.

Lee

[dknelson]

A local expert on military railroads, Sgt Dave Meyer, said the other night at a slide show that most Pullman troop sleepers (the box car type) ran in groups of three to one troop mess/diner car. That is why Walthers is offering their upcoming troop cars with three numbers but the diner only one. Sgt Dave was showing slides of how these cars survived on the Alaska Railroad into fairly modern times.
Dave Nelson

[coalminer3]

IIRC, they were not "converted" boxcars, but were built as troop cars. Postwar, lots of railroads used them for other things; e.g. NYNH&H converted troop cars into express cars and BAR used them for cabeese, C&O had camp cars that started life as troop cars, etc. My father-in-law recalls (not fondly to say the least) the trips he made during the war; all in coaches that, he said, probably carried the Confederate army to Manassas. Really got him in a good frame of mind for his boat trip to France.
This is an interesting thread; I'm enjoying it.

work safe

[Anonymous]

Well... I thought that I would pass on another outstanding source of information to the discussion. Even though it is oriented toward N-Scale Passenger equipment, Fred Klein's website offers a great deal of reference material suitable to all parties interested in passenger trains, and includes information on troop trains, too!

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/

There are two examples of troop trains that are very possible to do in a number of scales.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

Walthers is getting ready to make troop cars? In HO? Plastic?

[Anonymous]

Walthers announced troop sleepers and troop kitchens, in plastic. Due to arrive in March 2004. MSRP of about $25 each.

--John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

I found this video to be very informative. I dont think they did an entire armored division on that train, A stuart light tank had 3 men (I think) and there were about 300 to a division 2 to a 40 foot flat car yeilded a total of about 150 flats.

My feeling is that they moved by subunits in multiple trains. MAIN Trains to my understanding had piority over everything else on the rail.

...

This video is one of the internet highlights of this hobby.. Thank you very much for allowing us the link to it.

Lee

I just watched the video last night - very interesting, and I repeat Lee's thanks for the link.

But to address one of the points above - it looked to me that there were several different trains featured in this movie. The loading was different, for example. In several shots, there were tanks on flats right behind the passanger cars. In other shots there were tracked trucks immediately behind...

Given the secrecy surrounding the movements, it is not surprising that the film might be made up of shots of different trains in difference locations. The "orders" being read at the beginning by various gentlemen on telephones were probably also completely bogus - to the point where even the "lingo" would not have been correct. This might be confimed in part by psngrtrn's note (above - third or forth reply) that this is not a division moving, however, the title of the film clearly indicates that it is a division...

All-in-all a very interesting film, and a very interesting time in history too.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

During the war, trains moved by Battalion. Today equipment moves by company. The equipment will leave about 30 days before the troops do. The lingo used is correct as each railroad used its own lingo. the only lingo used that was standardized is the term main
Ch

[Anonymous]

Following your observations, then the next step would be to find out what the typical armor battalion in 1943 or 1944 structure would be... i.e. number of men and the equipment breakdown. Shouldn't be too hard. I think when reflecting about the movie, the decision to model a specific train will reflect on just a part or section of that battalion's movement. I also think... what looks the coolest!

Then it would be matter of acquiring the appropriate flats cars for that era, and the appropriate vehicles too.

I'm still looking for accuracy... not necessarily dead-on but close. Now to find a reference to organization structure and makeup.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: Now to find a reference to organization structure and makeup.

You might want to look at websites devoted to World War II wargamers. I think GHQ sells sets of miniatures (not in HO or N, unfortunately) that have all the troops and equipment in certian military eschelons.

[Anonymous]

The unit size in WWII is the same as today.
squad-9 men
platoon-33 men
company- 99-120 men
batallion-300-400 men
bridage-1500-2000 men
division-10,000-13,000 men
corp-30,000-39,000 men
army-90,000-120,000 men
Ch

[Anonymous]

After looking at several sites last night and this morning, I found what I think is probably the most easy to navigate and complete site dealing with a typical WWII Armor Battalion. Here's the link for those of you interested in assembling a fairly accurate armor and support vehicle roster for your WWII era troop train.

http://www.752ndtank.com/

Check out the simplified organization chart and then look at the equipment list. It's incredibily complete. The 752nd Armor Division's has some excellent reading by the way.

I'm thinking of assemblying a single train moving a single company of 15 armor vehicles, the headquarters section, and maybe one of the other support units within the battalion. With my WWII Hospital train, I may run that as an section and tag along the medical unit listed too.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

Glad you liked my website, Marc! A ton of research and cross-checking went into the info about the size, configuration, and equipment of a WWII independent tank battalion. Original source documents were analyzed to come up with what you see on the website. The info is about as accurate and reliable as any you'll find on the web. You really can't trust those wargamer sites very much. For anyone interested, a quick link to the organizational section is:

http://www.752ndtank.com/TOE.html

BTW, divisionalized battalions were slightly different from independent tank battalions, but not by all that much. For anyone who doesn't know, a tank battalion is much smaller than an armored division.

I've got a couple of photos of the 752nd Tank Battalion moving cross-country on a transport train on their way to embarkation. Looked like very comfortable troop facilities, and the tanks were loaded on flatcars behind the troop cars.

The trains in war-torn Italy were a VERY different story!

If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to respond via e-mail.

Bob Holt
http://www.752ndtank.com

[Anonymous]

Very cool! Would it be possible that you would include those pictures of the train movement on your website? Such information would be terrific for those of us who are trying to represent one of the greatest eras in US railroad history... The transport of millions of men and women, and the millions of tons of materials needed to carry the fight to the enemy in WWII. Certainly troop movements and troop logistics are often reflected upon by historians as events that occured at the frontlines. The book "America's Fighting Railroads" does a great job telling the story, but yet we're lacking the information and photographic materials to work from to model fairly accurately such movements by rail in the US during WWII.

Is my assumption that the battalion moved in mass by rail, but not as a single train unit, but actually moved by a number of trains each carrying per se a company?

Again, I can't say enough how terrific your site is... the information is some of the most complete I have reviewed concerning an US Army Armor Division. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Marc,

Thanks very much for the comments. I looked at the photos, but unfortunately the detail is quite small and I literally had to view it under a magnifying glass to see what was going on. The photos back then were in small format, and the processing was not always the best. If I put it on the website, at best the flatcars will look like a march of black ants!

I really don't know much about tank battalion rail movement. However, a close look at the photo supports what you are saying. The photo shows the rear portion of the train going around a wide curve, as taken from the window of a forward troop car. Quite a few flatcars can be seen, looks like 2 tanks per flatcar but I can't be sure. The first several flatcars are carrying 6 or 7 trucks, mostly 2.5 ton trucks. Behind them are 17 M3 Lee Medium tanks, which is exactly the number that would be contained in a company within a battalion. Behind that are at least another 9 trucks, mostly 2.5 tons with trailers attached. However, the train wraps beyond the edge of the photo, so it is difficult to tell what else was loaded on those flatcars. My guess is that this train was moving just a company, certainly not the entire battalion.

BTW, this photo was taken in April 1942 while the 752nd Tank Battalion moved from Ft. Lewis WA to the Desert Training Center at Camp Young, CA.

Hope this helps.

Bob Holt
http://www.752ndtank.com

[Anonymous]

BTW, an independent batallion is actually a regiment, which approximatly the size of a brigade by todays standards.
Ch

[Anonymous]

Helps alot!! Thanks Bob! And thanks to all of the rest of you kind enough to comment. I'm still looking for additional info... So as I come up with more, I will pass along.

Yup... Now to just get all of the pieces. Marc

[Anonymous]

Marc, each batallion had its own medics and medics would travel with the batalion. The hospital trains were assigned to the Medical Corps and had personnel assigned to the trains.
Ch

[Anonymous]

M3 light Stuart tanks carried a crew of 4 while M3 medium Lee and M4 medium Shermans carried a crew of 5. In the 70's there was a specialty magazine out called AFV-G2 specializing in military armor. They had a number of articles showing unit tables of organization which would give very accurate numbers of personnel and equipment for units of various sizes. Note, however, that most units varied from the specified ideal when they went into action. US units were typically 85% to 110% of assigned strength (we were the only army capable of fielding units at excess strength on a rather routine basis). There are several companies putting out WWII military equipment in N scale now including GHQ. It should also be noted that a large amount of war surplus construction and trucking equipment made its way into civilian use through the mid 60's.

[Anonymous]

Happy Holidays!

I received a very special item today... an issue of Life magazine dated June 28, 1943. I found it while searching for information on troop trains, and came across this for auction on ebay. Yup! ebay of all places...

An excellent source of information in its self, the best starts on page 77, "Troop Train" article. It confirms with copy and photos what many of us were saying...

* In 1942, Pullman cars transported 8 million troops.
* It typically took 50 trains to transport one US Army division.
* Each train took a different route, and units were balanced on each train so should something happen to one train, the division could still function.
* Typical train moves were done at night.
* Division unit marks were erased from vehicles after loading.
* Guards did indeed ride in assorted vehicles blocked onto flat cars during movement.

This is just some of the information provided.

By the way, in the article it was noted that a "typical" consist was 8 to 10 pullmans, with a string of flats behind, carrying approximately 500 men or one-thirtieth of a modern (1943) division.

I'm debating how I might be able to pass some of this stuff on... I might scan the photos in, so I could make an educational display when running trains during our NTrak shows. Also, I'm not adverse to sharing this excellent material with other modelers interested in this facinating period in railroad history.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

Found another source for info...

"The Transportation Corps: Movements, Training, and Supply
Book by Chester Wardlow; Office of the Chief of Military History, 1956"

More to follow...

Marc