Looking for info on WWII Troop Train Consist

[Anonymous]

Good info and question about Hospital Trains...

Mostly heavyweight Pullman's were used. Since there were vestibles on both ends, it was not uncommon to sheel metal over the vestible on one end so there would be room for additional storage.

There were a number of other observations noted as well. Baggage car doors were installed on some of there cars to help facilitate the loading of litter patients. I have a photo where litter patients are being loaded on board via a specially installed window that could be dropped down.

I have been told by woman whos father was a traveling surgeon on one of these trains that the windows were either blacked out or heavily tinted to prevent spectators from looking inside as these trains carried the most greviously injured patients.

I'm actually trying to find some photos to support this information, but it's been a long process. More to follow as I get it...

Marc in Madison, WI.

[randybc2003]

I read w/ interest this thread. Note mention of HOSPITAL CARS. Am interested in these latter myself (HO). Where did you get your info? Hospital Ward cars in N? Who makes them or scratchbuilt/Kitbuilt.
What I know comes from my Mom's tales: she was a nurse attached to a hospital train unit, taveled all over the USA in them, delievering wonded and injured home. Some reaserch, but not a whole lot.
What I know: Built in 2 forms by ACF. w/ and wo/ doctor office (dressing stations). Ice bunkers under the car for AC in the American SW areas. Some photos in MR., and drawings in RMC, mag. and "car plan book". Heavy steel const. (I think) of 6wheel trucks. Post War: sold to Monon and Alaska RR, w/ remodeling to "Streamliner" lines. Some Circus Co. took some of them too. Some websites seem to have some info, but not a gold mine yet. I have checked Letterman General Hospital (San Francisco) and various Alaska RR web pages. Any one know of more?
Thank you!!!

[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

I spent some time and money checking out GHQ, Perrin or Minifigs for my troop movement train. I found GHQ to be superior in molding, detail and minimal flash. However, I think that GHQ is more for the military modeler doing a vignette or scene versus filling up a model military train... why? Cost, it's just too much.

Minifigs are very inexpensive, but moldings and lots of flash and clean up are required.
So Perrin is my choice, for a number of reasons. Price... A package of two tanks, DUKs, trucks, and other vehicles is $6. A package of four jeeps is also $6. Flash is minimal too, however, not as clean a molding as GHQ.

Now I'm going to model the movement of a Tank Battalion Headquarters Company, Company A (medium) and possibly Company D (light). That gives me 21 or so M4 Sherman tanks, 18 M5 Stuarts, and assorted halftracks, trucks, and such. I'm using the Organization & Equipment listing for the 752nd Tank Battalion for reference.

Should be good...

Marc in Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

GHQ has made some nice N-scale WWII vehicles but they're kind of pricey. I like the resin models made by Tires and Tracks at about $5 ea. The detail is good and they scale out well against the dimension drawings I have on prototype vehicles (yeah, I was a military modeller at one time too). M3 Light Stuarts weighed in at about 23 tons each and M3 Lee & M4 Shermans each weighed about 30 tons. The M3 White Half-track weighed about 12 tons. Each vehicle was packed with a couple of crates of spare parts on the same car. Hope this is of use in planning your loading.

[Anonymous]

Hello:

There is alot of great information in this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed. I am just getting into N Scale railroading and am looking into doing a troop train. Does anyone manufacture WWII flatcars?

I am also curious as to what everyone thinks would be the best option for the vehicles? GHQ, Perrin or Minifigs?

Thanks,
Rick

[AltonFan]

Regarding mprtuary trains:

According to the US Army Quartermaster Corps Mortuary Affairs website, fallen soldiers were first buried in temporary cemeteries near the battlefields. After the war, the temporary cemeteries were cleared, and the next-of-kin were given several choices for disposition of their kinsman's remains:

1. Burial in an overseas US military cemetery.
2. Burial in a cemetery in a foreign country requested by next-of-kin.
3. Burial in a National Cemetery in the US.
4. Burial in a private cemetery in the US requested by next-of-kin.

The logistics of preparing and shipping tens of thousands of remains to the US from Europe, North Africa, and the Pacific apparently did not go very well, and from the Korean War on, the Army set up a process for evacuation of the dead while the war was being fought. This process is being used now for casualties of the Iraq War.

I'll post a link to the Mortuary Affairs page when I get home.

[Anonymous]

Good question... I have been looking into this as well. I did find some reference to the hospital kitchen cars in "The Transportation Corps: Movements, Training, and Supply
Book by Chester Wardlow; Office of the Chief of Military History, 1956." Very limited info...

Some other comments I have come across, the vesibules were sheeted over to make more room for stretchers. Some of the pullmans had large or wide baggage type doors installed for ease of tranport of litter patients to and from the car on each side. Some litter patients were transported to the car through a window. One woman at a show saw my train, and commented that her father was a doctor serving on a hospital train. She said, "It was the worst time for her father... he commented the "emergency" surgery was performed only when to save a life, motion on the train was too dangerous. Additionally, all of the windows were blacked out so outsiders couldn't look into the train. Most of the passengers on these trains were severly injured with grievous wounds."

I'm still looking for info... even ran across a brief blurb on mortuary trains that did nothing else but carry war dead. Hmmm.

Marc in Madison

[Anonymous]

i have a question. i have an old con-cor/rivarossi hospital train i bought a while ago. it came witht he steam loco and 7 pullman hospital cars. i want to add some of the new walthers troop cars but i need to know if the troop cars were ever run with the hospital trains.

[AltonFan]

I wonder if the relevant military manuals can be acquired from the government?

[Anonymous]

Found another source for info...

"The Transportation Corps: Movements, Training, and Supply
Book by Chester Wardlow; Office of the Chief of Military History, 1956"

More to follow...

Marc

[Anonymous]

Happy Holidays!

I received a very special item today... an issue of Life magazine dated June 28, 1943. I found it while searching for information on troop trains, and came across this for auction on ebay. Yup! ebay of all places...

An excellent source of information in its self, the best starts on page 77, "Troop Train" article. It confirms with copy and photos what many of us were saying...

* In 1942, Pullman cars transported 8 million troops.
* It typically took 50 trains to transport one US Army division.
* Each train took a different route, and units were balanced on each train so should something happen to one train, the division could still function.
* Typical train moves were done at night.
* Division unit marks were erased from vehicles after loading.
* Guards did indeed ride in assorted vehicles blocked onto flat cars during movement.

This is just some of the information provided.

By the way, in the article it was noted that a "typical" consist was 8 to 10 pullmans, with a string of flats behind, carrying approximately 500 men or one-thirtieth of a modern (1943) division.

I'm debating how I might be able to pass some of this stuff on... I might scan the photos in, so I could make an educational display when running trains during our NTrak shows. Also, I'm not adverse to sharing this excellent material with other modelers interested in this facinating period in railroad history.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

M3 light Stuart tanks carried a crew of 4 while M3 medium Lee and M4 medium Shermans carried a crew of 5. In the 70's there was a specialty magazine out called AFV-G2 specializing in military armor. They had a number of articles showing unit tables of organization which would give very accurate numbers of personnel and equipment for units of various sizes. Note, however, that most units varied from the specified ideal when they went into action. US units were typically 85% to 110% of assigned strength (we were the only army capable of fielding units at excess strength on a rather routine basis). There are several companies putting out WWII military equipment in N scale now including GHQ. It should also be noted that a large amount of war surplus construction and trucking equipment made its way into civilian use through the mid 60's.

[Anonymous]

Marc, each batallion had its own medics and medics would travel with the batalion. The hospital trains were assigned to the Medical Corps and had personnel assigned to the trains.
Ch

[Anonymous]

Helps alot!! Thanks Bob! And thanks to all of the rest of you kind enough to comment. I'm still looking for additional info... So as I come up with more, I will pass along.

Yup... Now to just get all of the pieces. Marc

[Anonymous]

BTW, an independent batallion is actually a regiment, which approximatly the size of a brigade by todays standards.
Ch

[Anonymous]

Marc,

Thanks very much for the comments. I looked at the photos, but unfortunately the detail is quite small and I literally had to view it under a magnifying glass to see what was going on. The photos back then were in small format, and the processing was not always the best. If I put it on the website, at best the flatcars will look like a march of black ants!

I really don't know much about tank battalion rail movement. However, a close look at the photo supports what you are saying. The photo shows the rear portion of the train going around a wide curve, as taken from the window of a forward troop car. Quite a few flatcars can be seen, looks like 2 tanks per flatcar but I can't be sure. The first several flatcars are carrying 6 or 7 trucks, mostly 2.5 ton trucks. Behind them are 17 M3 Lee Medium tanks, which is exactly the number that would be contained in a company within a battalion. Behind that are at least another 9 trucks, mostly 2.5 tons with trailers attached. However, the train wraps beyond the edge of the photo, so it is difficult to tell what else was loaded on those flatcars. My guess is that this train was moving just a company, certainly not the entire battalion.

BTW, this photo was taken in April 1942 while the 752nd Tank Battalion moved from Ft. Lewis WA to the Desert Training Center at Camp Young, CA.

Hope this helps.

Bob Holt
http://www.752ndtank.com

[Anonymous]

Very cool! Would it be possible that you would include those pictures of the train movement on your website? Such information would be terrific for those of us who are trying to represent one of the greatest eras in US railroad history... The transport of millions of men and women, and the millions of tons of materials needed to carry the fight to the enemy in WWII. Certainly troop movements and troop logistics are often reflected upon by historians as events that occured at the frontlines. The book "America's Fighting Railroads" does a great job telling the story, but yet we're lacking the information and photographic materials to work from to model fairly accurately such movements by rail in the US during WWII.

Is my assumption that the battalion moved in mass by rail, but not as a single train unit, but actually moved by a number of trains each carrying per se a company?

Again, I can't say enough how terrific your site is... the information is some of the most complete I have reviewed concerning an US Army Armor Division. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Glad you liked my website, Marc! A ton of research and cross-checking went into the info about the size, configuration, and equipment of a WWII independent tank battalion. Original source documents were analyzed to come up with what you see on the website. The info is about as accurate and reliable as any you'll find on the web. You really can't trust those wargamer sites very much. For anyone interested, a quick link to the organizational section is:

http://www.752ndtank.com/TOE.html

BTW, divisionalized battalions were slightly different from independent tank battalions, but not by all that much. For anyone who doesn't know, a tank battalion is much smaller than an armored division.

I've got a couple of photos of the 752nd Tank Battalion moving cross-country on a transport train on their way to embarkation. Looked like very comfortable troop facilities, and the tanks were loaded on flatcars behind the troop cars.

The trains in war-torn Italy were a VERY different story!

If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to respond via e-mail.

Bob Holt
http://www.752ndtank.com

[Anonymous]

After looking at several sites last night and this morning, I found what I think is probably the most easy to navigate and complete site dealing with a typical WWII Armor Battalion. Here's the link for those of you interested in assembling a fairly accurate armor and support vehicle roster for your WWII era troop train.

http://www.752ndtank.com/

Check out the simplified organization chart and then look at the equipment list. It's incredibily complete. The 752nd Armor Division's has some excellent reading by the way.

I'm thinking of assemblying a single train moving a single company of 15 armor vehicles, the headquarters section, and maybe one of the other support units within the battalion. With my WWII Hospital train, I may run that as an section and tag along the medical unit listed too.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

The unit size in WWII is the same as today.
squad-9 men
platoon-33 men
company- 99-120 men
batallion-300-400 men
bridage-1500-2000 men
division-10,000-13,000 men
corp-30,000-39,000 men
army-90,000-120,000 men
Ch

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: Now to find a reference to organization structure and makeup.

You might want to look at websites devoted to World War II wargamers. I think GHQ sells sets of miniatures (not in HO or N, unfortunately) that have all the troops and equipment in certian military eschelons.

[Anonymous]

Following your observations, then the next step would be to find out what the typical armor battalion in 1943 or 1944 structure would be... i.e. number of men and the equipment breakdown. Shouldn't be too hard. I think when reflecting about the movie, the decision to model a specific train will reflect on just a part or section of that battalion's movement. I also think... what looks the coolest!

Then it would be matter of acquiring the appropriate flats cars for that era, and the appropriate vehicles too.

I'm still looking for accuracy... not necessarily dead-on but close. Now to find a reference to organization structure and makeup.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[Anonymous]

During the war, trains moved by Battalion. Today equipment moves by company. The equipment will leave about 30 days before the troops do. The lingo used is correct as each railroad used its own lingo. the only lingo used that was standardized is the term main
Ch

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

I found this video to be very informative. I dont think they did an entire armored division on that train, A stuart light tank had 3 men (I think) and there were about 300 to a division 2 to a 40 foot flat car yeilded a total of about 150 flats.

My feeling is that they moved by subunits in multiple trains. MAIN Trains to my understanding had piority over everything else on the rail.

...

This video is one of the internet highlights of this hobby.. Thank you very much for allowing us the link to it.

Lee

I just watched the video last night - very interesting, and I repeat Lee's thanks for the link.

But to address one of the points above - it looked to me that there were several different trains featured in this movie. The loading was different, for example. In several shots, there were tanks on flats right behind the passanger cars. In other shots there were tracked trucks immediately behind...

Given the secrecy surrounding the movements, it is not surprising that the film might be made up of shots of different trains in difference locations. The "orders" being read at the beginning by various gentlemen on telephones were probably also completely bogus - to the point where even the "lingo" would not have been correct. This might be confimed in part by psngrtrn's note (above - third or forth reply) that this is not a division moving, however, the title of the film clearly indicates that it is a division...

All-in-all a very interesting film, and a very interesting time in history too.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Walthers announced troop sleepers and troop kitchens, in plastic. Due to arrive in March 2004. MSRP of about $25 each.

--John

[Anonymous]

Walthers is getting ready to make troop cars? In HO? Plastic?

[Anonymous]

Well... I thought that I would pass on another outstanding source of information to the discussion. Even though it is oriented toward N-Scale Passenger equipment, Fred Klein's website offers a great deal of reference material suitable to all parties interested in passenger trains, and includes information on troop trains, too!

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/

There are two examples of troop trains that are very possible to do in a number of scales.

Marc Van Cleven
Madison, WI

[coalminer3]

IIRC, they were not "converted" boxcars, but were built as troop cars. Postwar, lots of railroads used them for other things; e.g. NYNH&H converted troop cars into express cars and BAR used them for cabeese, C&O had camp cars that started life as troop cars, etc. My father-in-law recalls (not fondly to say the least) the trips he made during the war; all in coaches that, he said, probably carried the Confederate army to Manassas. Really got him in a good frame of mind for his boat trip to France.
This is an interesting thread; I'm enjoying it.

work safe

[dknelson]

A local expert on military railroads, Sgt Dave Meyer, said the other night at a slide show that most Pullman troop sleepers (the box car type) ran in groups of three to one troop mess/diner car. That is why Walthers is offering their upcoming troop cars with three numbers but the diner only one. Sgt Dave was showing slides of how these cars survived on the Alaska Railroad into fairly modern times.
Dave Nelson