Is there a distinct difference between an RPO car and an REA car? Did the REA handle packages and the RPO letters?
Thanks,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
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tstage Did the REA handle packages and the RPO letters?
Did the REA handle packages and the RPO letters?
The Railway Express Agency (REA) was an independently owned and operated company with its own shareholders and Board of Directors. It essentially was the predecessor in function to today's UPS and FedEx.
The Railroad Post Office (RPO) was not government owned but the U.S. government contracted with the railroads to operate RPO cars as moving post offices. The cars were sometimes "combines" with a portion of the car devoted to baggage or even passenger seating. The Railway Mail Service was an agency of the United States Post Office Department until its dissolution in 1971 that oversaw the RPO operations.
Rich
Alton Junction
Like Rich said, two completely different operations that had nothing to do with each other.
A few more details:
There were a series of U.S. Post Office approved floor plans and layouts for both full RPO cars and RPO sections in combination cars in a number of different sizes. All were similar in layout with a number of standardized fixtures.
Baggage cars were often assigned to RPO service as mail storage cars connected to the working RPO car or cars. RPO baggage combines gave the railroad flexibility to use the baggage section for either railroad use or as mail storage for the RPO.
RPO workers were employed by the Post Office and it was a higher paying prestigious assignment. Once assigned to a specific route, they were seldom re-assigned because it was necessary for them to learn the order of the stops on the route, and know the layout of the "their" RPO car. It also required carring a side arm - all RPO employees were armed while on duty.
Mail was picked up and droped off at the various stops along the way, and on the fly using the "mail hook" and by simply tossing the bag of mail onto the platform to a waiting post office employee.
Only Post Office employees were allowed in the RPO cars or mail stoarage cars while in service with mail onboard. This is one reason why they were at the front of the train, to not limit movement of passenger crew thru the rest of the train. Additonally the cars were generally switched out quickly in big cities and parked on special tracks, offen at large Post Offices located near major stations.
REA was just like UPS, but using the trains as their "long distance trucking". Local delivery trucks picked up and delivered packages, or you could pickup/drop off at the train station. Under federal law, they did not carry letters, just parcels.
REA also had deticated terminals at many large stations. REA has a complex history of evolution, but in the end was owned by a consortium of 86 railroads and was federally regulated carrier just like the trucking and railroad industry of that time.
While the post office also carried parcels, that service was obviously limited to the stations where the train actually stopped........
The fees paid by the Post Office for the equipment and the operation paid a major portion of the operating costs of most passenger trains. And on the busiest routes between major cities, special mail trains that consisted of mostly multiple RPO's and mail storage cars would be run with just a coach or two for railroad crew and a few paying passengers.
Likwise name trains seldom had RPO's or had limited RPO service, while "intermediate" class trains that stopped at most stations often had lots RPO and REA head end equipment.
The RPO service basically funded US passenger trains from its introduction in the 1860's until the 1960's.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
I really appreciate the lengthy & thorough explanation about the two operations. I think I'll read it through a few more times so that I can get a better grasp of what they did. And thanks, Rich and Bear, for your input, as well.
tstage Sheldon, I really appreciate the lengthy & thorough explanation about the two operations. I think I'll read it through a few more times so that I can get a better grasp of what they did. And thanks, Rich and Bear, for your input, as well. Tom
You are most welcome. After you soak up that info, I can fill in more details if you have questions.
I will add this right now. While from the exterior, particularly with lightweight/streamlined RPO equipment, they can all look very different, the interior layout of the mail sorting section was always to one of the approved Post Office plans.
The NYC will give you an inside peek.
NYC_RPO-ad by Edmund, on Flickr
Interesting to note the Post Office called the portion of the car devoted to their use as an "Apartment".
Mail carried and sorted en route was given an R.P.O. cancellation showing the train number and route.
Empire State Express_12-07-1941 by Edmund, on Flickr
I like to collect special "covers" with RPO cancellations.
RPO_2016_0016_fix (2016_08_17 08_08_12 UTC) by Edmund, on Flickr
RPO_Apartment by Edmund, on Flickr
Throughout the 1950s and '60s many RPOs were relegated to M-of-W service as they became surplus, sometimes ending not so well:
RPO_PRR_Cresson (2016_09_04 19_23_36 UTC) by Edmund, on Flickr
10078 by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
Some, maybe most, RPO cars even had a slot in the side of the car so letters could be "mailed" by passengers on station platforms.
And because the mail was being sorted en route, remarkably fast delivery to the customer could occur. I heard a presentation by some Burlington Route veterans who had worked on RPO cars, and because there was twice-a-day US mail delivery in many cities (something I have only the vaguest and possibly invented memories of), they were saying that a letter mailed on the platform in Chicago early in the morning of a mail train due to depart early morning, it might be delivered in that same afternoon's mail delivery in surprisingly distant cities such as Omaha.
The other thing they mentioned is that the RPO guys got to know their route so well that they knew the little height differences in the mail pouch holders so they could raise or lower the catcher arm perfectly without even having to know what station it was.
There is a CB&Q RPO car on display at the depot/museum in Galesburg IL and it is well worth a tour when it is open for inspection, such as during Railroad Days in June
Dave Nelson
Ed's letter recovered from the Century wreck invites more discussion.
Note the postmark -- Indianapolis, on what can only be the 20th, at 10pm.
The letter could not have been loaded directly on the Century at Indianapolis, of course, which leads to the question of how mail was transferred to the train west of Mentor.
The wreck was in the evening of the 21st, but the train immediately preceding, by 50 minutes or less, was #10 from Chicago to Boston. Note that the accident envelope wound up in Boston, which seems a peculiar place for NYC to transport damaged mail (I presume it is international mail from the German-language sticker where the stamp would be). If that was in fact the routing this letter was intended to take, I presume there was no mail-handling facility on #10.
Dave mentioned the RPO on display at Galesburg. The B&O Museum in Baltimore also has a very comprehensive RPO display and another early RPO is preserved at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is Strasburg.
Interesting info here. Have a few pics of a Railway Post Office car taken at the Duluth Depot Museum in Minnesota.
Good photos can be hard to come by as the cars are generally packed in like sardines.
Northern Pacific
Bars in the windows with a door like Fort Knox. They often carried large sums of money and transported bullion at times.
Wonder how many tons of mail had been sorted before that car retired.
TF
Here is a neat photo of the RPO section of the middle car on the original Pioneer Zephyr on display at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pioneer_Zephyr,_RPO_section.jpg
Seeing all those stuffed bags in the photo makes me think that some citizens are going to be pre-tty upset that they still haven't received their mail yet...
GNREA REEFERS...
ATLANTIC CENTRALLikwise name trains seldom had RPO's or had limited RPO service, while "intermediate" class trains that stopped at most stations often had lots RPO and REA head end equipment.
Would it be common to see an RPO and an REA car in the same train? Or, did RRs tend to keep them in separate trains?
Just my two cents. REA reefer cars were commonly seen behind the locomotives on passenger trains and RPO cars would often accompany those trains as well.
It would be my thoughts, that if standard REA along with RPO cars were destined for the same locations or destinations on route, the railroad would put them on the same train as a matter of efficiency.
Reading between the lines, (no pun intended) it seems Sheldon is more knowledgeable about this subject than me though
More RPO covers:
RPO copy 2 by Edmund, on Flickr
NY_Worlds-fair-RPO by Edmund, on Flickr
RPO_2016_0008_fix (2016_08_17 08_08_12 UTC) by Edmund, on Flickr
And the front of the letter that interested Overmod:
10077 by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
Those are cool. Some nice Hancock on the front of that letter. Got a neat collection of steam engine postal stamps sealed in tupperware around here somewhere.
Might take a while, but I'll try to dig those up.
This is interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DefYYPw1tNI
Well just to confuse the issue, why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific? I actually have one of the GN REA cars that T-Fid showed above. When I search eBay for "northern pacific railway express agency" I get mostly reefers of the REA brand but NOT of NP. However, if I l leave off the word "agency" I find NP cars labeled "American Railway Express". What's that about?
Oddly, there was one Rivarossi heavyweight combine in the old NP pine tree scheme labeled Railway Express Agency AND United States Railway Post Office. A foob?
It just seems odd to me that you see millions and frillions of these GN express reefers online and at swap meets, but very seldom from any other road.
Any ideas?
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency
In March 1929, the assets and operations of American Railway Express Inc. were transferred to Railway Express Agency (REA). REA was owned by 86 railroads in proportion to the express traffic on their lines; no one railroad or group of railroads controlled the agency. In response to customer demand, REA added a Chicago, Illinois-based refrigerator car line. In 1927, REA began an Air Express Division.[3] In 1938, the remainder of Southern Express also joined the consolidated REA.
Express by Edmund, on Flickr
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL Likwise name trains seldom had RPO's or had limited RPO service, while "intermediate" class trains that stopped at most stations often had lots RPO and REA head end equipment. Would it be common to see an RPO and an REA car in the same train? Or, did RRs tend to keep them in separate trains? Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Likwise name trains seldom had RPO's or had limited RPO service, while "intermediate" class trains that stopped at most stations often had lots RPO and REA head end equipment.
They could and would be seen in the same trains. REA cars would be behind any Post Office RPO's or mail storage cars, and usually before any baggage cars dedicated to passenger baggage.
And while they might be found on any class of train depending on the specific railroad and situation, they would be most common on secondary trains that stop at nearly all stops.
There was nothing about the contract with the post office that would prevent REA traffic in the same train. Remember, all the actual equipment for both operations belonged to the railroads, and the "service space" was leased to both carriers.
And REA was jointly owned by the major carriers.
REA was a government sanctioned co-op manopoly, separately managed, but jointly owned by the big carriers - check out the link Ed posted for some of the details and evolution.
It might be helpful to understand how railroad freight rates and trucking regulations and rates worked before the 1980 Staggers Act.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staggers_Rail_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Act_of_1887
The rates railroads and trucking companies charged shippers were highly regulated by the federal government prior to 1980. It was not a free market system. The Government saw both industries just like the power and phone companies as "public utilities" that had to be regulated for fairness and reliable service to the public.
The operation of REA was no different.
A small contribution....1) The postal service specified the size and layout of the mail "apartments" (official terminology) as being 15 feet, 30 feet and 60 feet. Obviously, the first two would be part of combines, usually Baggage-Mail, but rarely Coach-Mail and exceptionally Baggage-Mail-Coach (an entire train in car). 2) In addition to RPO's, mail that didn't need enroute sorting was also carried in sealed pouces in baggage cars or the baggage section of combines. A typical example would be mail being sent to destinations west of the Mississippi from New York City would be in sealed pouches aboard a train from New York to Chicago. The Chicago post office would sort the mail from these pouches for further distribution 3) Since the days of the Wild West, RPO clerks were armed and required to qualify with their pistols (typically Colt Banker's Specials) annually. Sometimes things got out of hand and the US Marines sailed the steel ocean.
"Twice during the 1920s, when mail robberies became an epidemic, United States Marines were detailed to ride the rails backing up the bulls. Over 2,000 leathernecks were detailed coast to coast to ride shotgun (literally) in mail cars with their primary arm being Winchester 97 trench guns with Colt M1911s in Condition One (cocked and locked.)
To make a speedy tactical draw, the dustflap on their standard holsters were tied open, exposing the grip of the Colt to the Marine’s ready hand. Individual postal service employees themselves were loaned WWI-era Smith and Wesson 1917 .45 ACP revolvers as a last line of defense. Once implemented, robberies of mail cars on trains in the United States took a marked decline."
Braving the Rails | National Postal Museum (si.edu)
crossthedog why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific?
why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific?
Track fiddler crossthedog why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific? Don't know but it's frustrating as I've never found any either and don't believe anyone makes any. Too bad because I'd like a model or two of these two door long dogs. They appear to be just as long as an auto parts car. Maybe they were an auto parts car with an REA paint job. Or maybe auto parts cars originated from them Things that make you go hmmm? TF
That is just a baggage car. Maybe a little longer than average, maybe not. But just a baggage car none the less.
That is what most REA cars were. A NP roster should list them and state their length. I will check later.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Track fiddler crossthedog why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific? Don't know but it's frustrating as I've never found any either and don't believe anyone makes any. Too bad because I'd like a model or two of these two door long dogs. They appear to be just as long as an auto parts car. Maybe they were an auto parts car with an REA paint job. Or maybe auto parts cars originated from them Things that make you go hmmm? TF That is just a baggage car. Maybe a little longer than average, maybe not. But just a baggage car none the less. That is what most REA cars were. A NP roster should list them and state their length. I will check later. Sheldon
A retired RR cop once told me that he would guard the mail baggage cars from NY to Cleveland and back. Not sure if all of the mail baggage cars differed from standard baggage cars was a stove or steam heat and bathroom for the guard. Every car with mail had to have a guard. He was an RPO employee until the end and the RR hired him on. He started out sorting and worked his way to guard. Every RPO had a shotgun rack along with the side arms the employees were required to have.
Pete.
Two additions to my earlier posting. Less well known, at least to us railfans and modelers, is that there were also HPOs -- Highway Post Offices. They were large trucks, somewhat resembling an old fashioned bus in shape but without the windows, and in common with RPO cars, there were clerks in the back who were actively sorting mail while the HPO was driving on highways and roads to its various destinations. The interior design looked very much like and RPO. The HPO and RPO had active mail sorting in common, versus trucks (and railroad cars such as Amtrak used to carry) that simply carried bagged mail, sorted or not, to a destination
The other point is that anyone interested in Railway Express Agency and its predecessor companies really should try to track down Vic Roseman's excellent book about the REA, "Model Railroading's Guide to the Railway Express Agency." (Roseman is the well known modeler and model railroad photographer who takes such realistic photos.) Unfortunately the book was published by Model Railroading Magazine one of those very very good second tier model magazines that has disappeared and the book is out of print, available on the used market but often at high prices. I have seen it more reasonably priced at swap meets but it is worth reading. I paid $12.95 which I think was new list price when I got it.
richhotrainThere is an eBay auction ending today for an NP Baggage Express car in HO scale. Just add a decal that reads Railway Express Agency.
An RPO, by definition, was a manned car where sorting and bundling took place. Bags were often received from intermediate points without stopping through the use of mail cranes; dropoffs of sorted mail for those points was done through the more-or-less simple expedient of pushing mail sacks out the door. Gentler handling could be expected where the train actually stopped!
I might add that in those years, the Post Office was very serious about its monopoly on handling first-class mail, and this extended to 'letter' packages of any size and to letters carefully attached to express packages.
REA, also as expected, was an express package/parcel service that utilized the then-frequent attended stations as pickup or warehousing points. These would seldom be attended cars -- pickups for particular stations would be grouped and marked, and a station attendant or expressman would retrieve their packages from the car, and place any shipments properly marked into the car. This would be little different from how baggage was handled for passengers.
When packages were unloaded at a particular stop, an employee of REA could note the short-final destinations of packages, pop them into a handy marked truck, and deliver them as desired. But I believe that has nothing to do with the type of car or any special 'intermodal' accommodations in the car.