gmpullman Overmod If I remember correctly, RPO workers were REQUIRED to be armed when on the car. Yes. This I understand. What I'm curious about is, are you the employee, considered armed if your weapon is dangling some feet away. You, the postal employee, are no longer in control of the weapon if it is not on your person at all times. Hence a possible violation of the rules. Suppose you visit the "hopper" and leave the holster where it is in the photo. Could another person take that weapon and use it for nefarious purposes? Cheers, Ed
Overmod If I remember correctly, RPO workers were REQUIRED to be armed when on the car.
Yes. This I understand.
What I'm curious about is, are you the employee, considered armed if your weapon is dangling some feet away. You, the postal employee, are no longer in control of the weapon if it is not on your person at all times.
Hence a possible violation of the rules. Suppose you visit the "hopper" and leave the holster where it is in the photo. Could another person take that weapon and use it for nefarious purposes?
Cheers, Ed
No one - not railroad employees, not anyone - was allowed inside the RPO except US Postal employees. The cars generally had limited access, sometimes without end doors or with end doors that locked, so people couldn't just wander through the car if it was in a train with regular passenger cars. Combine RPOs often only had a small crawlspace to connect the RPO section to the Baggage part. BTW that's one reason they were usually at the very head of the train, to help keep them separate and secure.
From what I gather regarding "working" the RPO on busier routes was that the car typically had a baggage mail storage car on either side of the RPO and unsorted mail was transfered into the RPO as needed with sorted bundles moving into the other baggage mail car.
This helped reduce any dwell time at intermediate stations. At any location where there might be transfers of larger volumes of mail the cars could simply be set-out or picked up as needed.
I do recall waiting in Hoboken NJ on the Erie-Lackawanna's Lake Cities while newspapers were being loaded into express cars on the head-end. In the '60s newspapers and periodical were still a high priority commodity. Missing the train and getting the newspapers to a distant city a day late was not an option.
By this time the RPO had already been removed from all E-L passenger trains.
Sometimes, Railway Express would hire temporary help during peak shipping periods:
Santa Express by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Station stops have always allowed reasonable time for expected loading/unloading of passengers, mail and express. I think we are talking about something that was pretty much a non issue. Sheldon
Station stops have always allowed reasonable time for expected loading/unloading of passengers, mail and express.
I think we are talking about something that was pretty much a non issue.
Sheldon
Rich
Alton Junction
allegedlynerdyIf an RPO is transferring mail at a station stop, the train won't move until everything is done.
I have never heard of a train being held 'on a post office's schedule' as a general rule, and I'll require explicit proof before giving that idea any credence at all The railroad might hold a train if holiday loading required a few more seconds, but that would be a normal courtesy, not some legislated requirement.
And I would expect similar consideration for high REA volume at a particular stop, although there would be likely be more 'handling' and consequently more dwell time involved for package express than for package mail. Any stop with anticipated high M&E volume would likely have the necessary number of baggage wagons ready by the car doors, with the packages staged ready near the doors, so actual "intermodal" transfer would occupy the least practical time.
allegedlynerdy ATLANTIC CENTRAL But no the RPO service did not control the train schedule, the Post Office adjusted to the railroads schedule. The railroad was under contract to provide the service as agreed apon, daily, weekly, as required for that route, but the Post Office did not control timing down to the minute - that would have been impossible and impractical. What I've heard is that, generally speaking at least on the east coast, the RPO had to be given enough time at a stop to do it's job. I'm not sure if I've just heard if from a lot of people quoting each other, but I've heard it from numerous trustworthy sources going back to magazine articles from the 70s. Was it often that a train was delayed for an RPO? Probably not, it was in everyone's best interest to stay on schedule, but an RPO had far more power to do so than REA or anyone else. Perhaps this might be a regional thing, or exaggerated anecdotes that have been passed down, or maybe one person made it up in the 70s and it's a common misconception, but I've not seen any evidence against it so I'll stick to it for now.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But no the RPO service did not control the train schedule, the Post Office adjusted to the railroads schedule. The railroad was under contract to provide the service as agreed apon, daily, weekly, as required for that route, but the Post Office did not control timing down to the minute - that would have been impossible and impractical.
But no the RPO service did not control the train schedule, the Post Office adjusted to the railroads schedule. The railroad was under contract to provide the service as agreed apon, daily, weekly, as required for that route, but the Post Office did not control timing down to the minute - that would have been impossible and impractical.
What I've heard is that, generally speaking at least on the east coast, the RPO had to be given enough time at a stop to do it's job. I'm not sure if I've just heard if from a lot of people quoting each other, but I've heard it from numerous trustworthy sources going back to magazine articles from the 70s. Was it often that a train was delayed for an RPO? Probably not, it was in everyone's best interest to stay on schedule, but an RPO had far more power to do so than REA or anyone else.
Perhaps this might be a regional thing, or exaggerated anecdotes that have been passed down, or maybe one person made it up in the 70s and it's a common misconception, but I've not seen any evidence against it so I'll stick to it for now.
Railroads have always liked to stay on schedule, and prefered to use departure times as their control. However most schedules have always had reasonable allowances and engineers are known to "makeup" the time when possible.
allegedlynerdy One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here that i have often heard, is how REA vs RPO handled stops. If an RPO is transferring mail at a station stop, the train won't move until everything is done. The RPO of course wants to be quick and efficient, but ultimately the railroad operates on the post office's schedule. REA was quite the opposite - they had exactly the amount of time the train was stopped, and if they weren't done in time, too bad! It's worth noting if you're planning on modeling the operations of the two.
One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here that i have often heard, is how REA vs RPO handled stops.
If an RPO is transferring mail at a station stop, the train won't move until everything is done. The RPO of course wants to be quick and efficient, but ultimately the railroad operates on the post office's schedule. REA was quite the opposite - they had exactly the amount of time the train was stopped, and if they weren't done in time, too bad!
It's worth noting if you're planning on modeling the operations of the two.
At big city stations, passenger trains either terminate or have longer layovers for engine/crew changes, supplies, fueling, equipment changes, etc. REA and Post Office cars were often set out at their specific sidings.
In any case REA personnel would know aproximately what their traffic load was and would generally be prepared to unload and load in the alotted time.
Did it work perfectly for every letter and every parcel? Of course not. Don't you get updates today that USPS, FedEx, UPS or Amazon has a delay in delivering your package?
But with the continious network of trains in both directions and junction points with other routes, detours and delays were easy to correct.
One last thought - While fast and reliable service from this carriers was important, people had different expectations - not like the spoiled, "follow my tracking updates" people of today.
When I went to college in the late 1960s, we used REA to handle my footlocker. Not sure how my parents got the box to REA, but an REA truck would deliver it to my dorm or appartment, and pick it up come summer vacation.
OvermodIf I remember correctly, RPO workers were REQUIRED to be armed when on the car.
Note the revolver hanging in the background (I wonder if that is OK in the rule book?)
crossthedog richhotrain There is an eBay auction ending today for an NP Baggage Express car in HO scale. Just add a decal that reads Railway Express Agency. Didn't see that but I saw this:
richhotrain There is an eBay auction ending today for an NP Baggage Express car in HO scale. Just add a decal that reads Railway Express Agency.
Didn't see that but I saw this:
This car is not correctly lettered because it is a full RPO, it would not have handled anything but Post Office mail.
But the prototype picture Ed posted is an RPO/baggage combine. So the baggage portion could/would have been used for REA traffic.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204195094704?hash=item2f8af9e0b0:g:JVAAAOSwuVljpv2m&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsJyIYKumLyXWYRZq4J836N105muMC8rZM%2FTqMIxwp5YjOisXfmHdTDc6vmeSXZ%2F6DiC%2BJeEoqYN%2Fy52P79sNFjiWMvkW0JUz0pkopvQSCh5Ae4QCuyRUSZ%2BHx8ndsd0I5uOH%2FFbwifKEKUx%2Fyo%2BfK5mQKU8RQZTVHBn3r0kCJ59f5378bQOMH1Nv0NsOKG%2B2eGV78YtfOckEbvxpo8Kg%2FoqgoCWGu7vV47%2FC408Wu1yz%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6CNgcusYQ
Tight quarters:
RPO_Apartment-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Note the revolver hanging in the background (I wonder if that is OK in the rule book?).
Letter drop details for mounting in the sides of the cars:
RPO_2016_0021fix (2016_08_17 08_08_12 UTC) by Edmund, on Flickr
You can see the location of the mail drop here, by the letter L at the right of the stenciled word MAIL:
Soo Line - Ladysmith, WI by d.w.davidson, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
An RPO, by definition, was a manned car where sorting and bundling took place. Bags were often received from intermediate points without stopping through the use of mail cranes; dropoffs of sorted mail for those points was done through the more-or-less simple expedient of pushing mail sacks out the door. Gentler handling could be expected where the train actually stopped!
I might add that in those years, the Post Office was very serious about its monopoly on handling first-class mail, and this extended to 'letter' packages of any size and to letters carefully attached to express packages.
REA, also as expected, was an express package/parcel service that utilized the then-frequent attended stations as pickup or warehousing points. These would seldom be attended cars -- pickups for particular stations would be grouped and marked, and a station attendant or expressman would retrieve their packages from the car, and place any shipments properly marked into the car. This would be little different from how baggage was handled for passengers.
When packages were unloaded at a particular stop, an employee of REA could note the short-final destinations of packages, pop them into a handy marked truck, and deliver them as desired. But I believe that has nothing to do with the type of car or any special 'intermodal' accommodations in the car.
richhotrainThere is an eBay auction ending today for an NP Baggage Express car in HO scale. Just add a decal that reads Railway Express Agency.
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Two additions to my earlier posting. Less well known, at least to us railfans and modelers, is that there were also HPOs -- Highway Post Offices. They were large trucks, somewhat resembling an old fashioned bus in shape but without the windows, and in common with RPO cars, there were clerks in the back who were actively sorting mail while the HPO was driving on highways and roads to its various destinations. The interior design looked very much like and RPO. The HPO and RPO had active mail sorting in common, versus trucks (and railroad cars such as Amtrak used to carry) that simply carried bagged mail, sorted or not, to a destination
The other point is that anyone interested in Railway Express Agency and its predecessor companies really should try to track down Vic Roseman's excellent book about the REA, "Model Railroading's Guide to the Railway Express Agency." (Roseman is the well known modeler and model railroad photographer who takes such realistic photos.) Unfortunately the book was published by Model Railroading Magazine one of those very very good second tier model magazines that has disappeared and the book is out of print, available on the used market but often at high prices. I have seen it more reasonably priced at swap meets but it is worth reading. I paid $12.95 which I think was new list price when I got it.
Dave Nelson
A retired RR cop once told me that he would guard the mail baggage cars from NY to Cleveland and back. Not sure if all of the mail baggage cars differed from standard baggage cars was a stove or steam heat and bathroom for the guard. Every car with mail had to have a guard. He was an RPO employee until the end and the RR hired him on. He started out sorting and worked his way to guard. Every RPO had a shotgun rack along with the side arms the employees were required to have.
Pete.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Track fiddler crossthedog why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific? Don't know but it's frustrating as I've never found any either and don't believe anyone makes any. Too bad because I'd like a model or two of these two door long dogs. They appear to be just as long as an auto parts car. Maybe they were an auto parts car with an REA paint job. Or maybe auto parts cars originated from them Things that make you go hmmm? TF That is just a baggage car. Maybe a little longer than average, maybe not. But just a baggage car none the less. That is what most REA cars were. A NP roster should list them and state their length. I will check later. Sheldon
Track fiddler crossthedog why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific? Don't know but it's frustrating as I've never found any either and don't believe anyone makes any. Too bad because I'd like a model or two of these two door long dogs. They appear to be just as long as an auto parts car. Maybe they were an auto parts car with an REA paint job. Or maybe auto parts cars originated from them Things that make you go hmmm? TF
crossthedog why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific?
why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific?
That is just a baggage car. Maybe a little longer than average, maybe not. But just a baggage car none the less.
That is what most REA cars were. A NP roster should list them and state their length. I will check later.
A small contribution....1) The postal service specified the size and layout of the mail "apartments" (official terminology) as being 15 feet, 30 feet and 60 feet. Obviously, the first two would be part of combines, usually Baggage-Mail, but rarely Coach-Mail and exceptionally Baggage-Mail-Coach (an entire train in car). 2) In addition to RPO's, mail that didn't need enroute sorting was also carried in sealed pouces in baggage cars or the baggage section of combines. A typical example would be mail being sent to destinations west of the Mississippi from New York City would be in sealed pouches aboard a train from New York to Chicago. The Chicago post office would sort the mail from these pouches for further distribution 3) Since the days of the Wild West, RPO clerks were armed and required to qualify with their pistols (typically Colt Banker's Specials) annually. Sometimes things got out of hand and the US Marines sailed the steel ocean.
"Twice during the 1920s, when mail robberies became an epidemic, United States Marines were detailed to ride the rails backing up the bulls. Over 2,000 leathernecks were detailed coast to coast to ride shotgun (literally) in mail cars with their primary arm being Winchester 97 trench guns with Colt M1911s in Condition One (cocked and locked.)
To make a speedy tactical draw, the dustflap on their standard holsters were tied open, exposing the grip of the Colt to the Marine’s ready hand. Individual postal service employees themselves were loaned WWI-era Smith and Wesson 1917 .45 ACP revolvers as a last line of defense. Once implemented, robberies of mail cars on trains in the United States took a marked decline."
Braving the Rails | National Postal Museum (si.edu)
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL Likwise name trains seldom had RPO's or had limited RPO service, while "intermediate" class trains that stopped at most stations often had lots RPO and REA head end equipment. Would it be common to see an RPO and an REA car in the same train? Or, did RRs tend to keep them in separate trains? Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Likwise name trains seldom had RPO's or had limited RPO service, while "intermediate" class trains that stopped at most stations often had lots RPO and REA head end equipment.
Would it be common to see an RPO and an REA car in the same train? Or, did RRs tend to keep them in separate trains?
Tom
They could and would be seen in the same trains. REA cars would be behind any Post Office RPO's or mail storage cars, and usually before any baggage cars dedicated to passenger baggage.
And while they might be found on any class of train depending on the specific railroad and situation, they would be most common on secondary trains that stop at nearly all stops.
There was nothing about the contract with the post office that would prevent REA traffic in the same train. Remember, all the actual equipment for both operations belonged to the railroads, and the "service space" was leased to both carriers.
And REA was jointly owned by the major carriers.
REA was a government sanctioned co-op manopoly, separately managed, but jointly owned by the big carriers - check out the link Ed posted for some of the details and evolution.
It might be helpful to understand how railroad freight rates and trucking regulations and rates worked before the 1980 Staggers Act.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staggers_Rail_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Act_of_1887
The rates railroads and trucking companies charged shippers were highly regulated by the federal government prior to 1980. It was not a free market system. The Government saw both industries just like the power and phone companies as "public utilities" that had to be regulated for fairness and reliable service to the public.
The operation of REA was no different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency
In March 1929, the assets and operations of American Railway Express Inc. were transferred to Railway Express Agency (REA). REA was owned by 86 railroads in proportion to the express traffic on their lines; no one railroad or group of railroads controlled the agency. In response to customer demand, REA added a Chicago, Illinois-based refrigerator car line. In 1927, REA began an Air Express Division.[3] In 1938, the remainder of Southern Express also joined the consolidated REA.
Express by Edmund, on Flickr
Well just to confuse the issue, why is it that I only ever see REA cars of Great Northern or Pennsy, but never Northern Pacific? I actually have one of the GN REA cars that T-Fid showed above. When I search eBay for "northern pacific railway express agency" I get mostly reefers of the REA brand but NOT of NP. However, if I l leave off the word "agency" I find NP cars labeled "American Railway Express". What's that about?
Oddly, there was one Rivarossi heavyweight combine in the old NP pine tree scheme labeled Railway Express Agency AND United States Railway Post Office. A foob?
It just seems odd to me that you see millions and frillions of these GN express reefers online and at swap meets, but very seldom from any other road.
Any ideas?
-Matt
This is interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DefYYPw1tNI
Those are cool. Some nice Hancock on the front of that letter. Got a neat collection of steam engine postal stamps sealed in tupperware around here somewhere.
Might take a while, but I'll try to dig those up.
TF
More RPO covers:
RPO copy 2 by Edmund, on Flickr
NY_Worlds-fair-RPO by Edmund, on Flickr
RPO_2016_0008_fix (2016_08_17 08_08_12 UTC) by Edmund, on Flickr
And the front of the letter that interested Overmod:
10077 by Edmund, on Flickr
Just my two cents. REA reefer cars were commonly seen behind the locomotives on passenger trains and RPO cars would often accompany those trains as well.
It would be my thoughts, that if standard REA along with RPO cars were destined for the same locations or destinations on route, the railroad would put them on the same train as a matter of efficiency.
Reading between the lines, (no pun intended) it seems Sheldon is more knowledgeable about this subject than me though