Thank you, Chris.
Ed
OvermodThe take-home message is that the use of red flags as markers in the rulebook sense is not the same thing as, say, Conrail requiring two red lights on the 'back' end of moving equipment, or transit systems displaying red lights to the rear when running.
Not really. In all situations here, the red light(s) to the rear are denoting the end of the train. Those red lights on Conrail and transit examples ARE markers.
OvermodI think it is pretty obvious that if you have a bright or oscillating red light at the rear of a train, a rule accepting this as a 'marker' for purposes of establishing rear-of train status would be sensible. But this remains a separate secondary use, much as current rules allow a dimmed headlight on DP power to serve as an end-of-train indication, even though not red, and not ceasing to be anything but a headlight mechanically.
Still being used as a marker.
Some engines equipped for DPU service also have red marker lights built in, which will be illuminated.
Some railroads' modern rule books allow for dimmed headlights on rear-end pushers/DPU to be used as markers on engines not specifically equipped.
Also, the FRED/EOT devices fulfil the same marker rule on modern trains.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Overmod Also explains why the caboose lights were so dim that Casey had insufficient warning to stop.
Casey probably had insufficient warning to stop but the caboose lights had nothing to do with it. The rear car could have been a Lionel searchlight car and he would have hit it because he was short flagged and running too fast.
Think of it this way. The warning panels etc on a caboose is like hanging a tennis ball from the ceiling of your garage to tell you when to stop when pulling into the garage. Yes, it tells you when to stop but you had better be creeping along when you get to it. If you pull in your garage at 50 mph, it doesn't matter what color the ball is or how easy it is to see, your are going to hit the ball and the garage wall.
The same with a train, yes the red panels help with the visibility of seeing the caboose. But in most cases if you are going 50 mph when you see the caboose, your train is going to hit the caboose, and if you are going 50 mph and are 200 yds away, as in the original question, then yes, except maybe for a one or two car train, you are definitely going to hit the caboose. What keeps you from hitting the caboose is NOT the relefective panels, its the restrictive signals or flagman that got you down to restricted speed a half mile or mile before getting to the caboose, way before you could see it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
7j43kIt is difficult to let go of the idea that two red flags or two red lights on the rear of a train are NOT there to prevent rear-end collision.
To round out or clarify what has been said...
A following train travelling at track speed wouldn't have a chance in hell at slowing down and stopping if they came up on the markers on a stopped train on a curve.
Rear end protection is and/or was provided by:
- [a stopped train] sending out flagmen to a safe distance to wave down any approaching trains. when the train is ready to move again, the flagman leaves "torpedos" (small explosive caps clipped to the rail that make a loud BANG when run over) to alert any train that hits one to slow down to restricted speed.
- [a delayed/slow-running train] drops "fusees" (flares with a timed burn rate) out behind them. A train coming onto a burning fusee slows down to restricted speed.
- signal protection in ABS or CTC territory.
- in modern direct radio communication like Track Warrants, the dispatcher only gives authority to tracks that are known to be clear, and trains report their progress giving "track releases" when they're clear of specific points.
Rear end protection procedures should make it that a train is already stopped or stopping before it even sees the markers.
7j43kTrain A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no [markers] on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched"
Yes, this.
If you are waiting for a train to pass, it's not passed until the markers are passed.
wjstixI believe the NYC caboose shows an early type of rear marker where a lighted kerosene lamp would be put inside the 'cages' when running a train at night.
Could be.
NYC_Palmer_marker by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
Having been away from social media for a week and just coming upon this thread, I find the education of Ed excruciatingly painful!
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BigJim Having been away from social media for a week and just coming upon this thread, I find the education of Ed excruciatingly painful!
Yes. But rewarding!
I've been away from social media since before it existed. Am I missing something important?
dehusmandehusman wrote the following post 7 days ago: Overmod Also explains why the caboose lights were so dim that Casey had insufficient warning to stop. Casey probably had insufficient warning to stop but the caboose lights had nothing to do with it. The rear car could have been a Lionel searchlight car and he would have hit it because he was short flagged and running too fast.
The 1900 Casey Jones crash is interesting because it seems to me there's only a short period of time when it could have happened. The accident happened because the airbrakes on a car locked up, causing a train pulling into a siding to be stuck with the caboose and several cars still on the main. The rear flagman said he went back as far as he could to try to flag Casey's following train, but at the speed he was going Casey only could slow down to about 35 MPH when the collision happened.
In 1900, air brakes were a new technology. Had the situation happened say a decade earlier, most likely none of the cars would have had airbrakes - so there would be no airbrakes to lock up.
In 1900, block signaling was still being developed. If the situation had come up a decade or so later, most likely Casey would have passed a yellow signal several miles back, indicating the track at the siding wasn't clear, and (if he obeyed the signal) would have slowed down enough to stop short of the other train.
According to Kalmbach's "Cabooses" page 69, ATSF crews called them "wigwags" or "highballers" and they were used to send messages to the locomotive crew. And "from the 1920's to 1950's wigwags or highballers were used on many cabooses." So it looks like an important detail in the Standard Railroading and Transition Eras if you model the ATSF
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