According to Kalmbach's "Cabooses" page 69, ATSF crews called them "wigwags" or "highballers" and they were used to send messages to the locomotive crew. And "from the 1920's to 1950's wigwags or highballers were used on many cabooses." So it looks like an important detail in the Standard Railroading and Transition Eras if you model the ATSF
Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society :: Home (atsfrr.org)
dehusmandehusman wrote the following post 7 days ago: Overmod Also explains why the caboose lights were so dim that Casey had insufficient warning to stop. Casey probably had insufficient warning to stop but the caboose lights had nothing to do with it. The rear car could have been a Lionel searchlight car and he would have hit it because he was short flagged and running too fast.
The 1900 Casey Jones crash is interesting because it seems to me there's only a short period of time when it could have happened. The accident happened because the airbrakes on a car locked up, causing a train pulling into a siding to be stuck with the caboose and several cars still on the main. The rear flagman said he went back as far as he could to try to flag Casey's following train, but at the speed he was going Casey only could slow down to about 35 MPH when the collision happened.
In 1900, air brakes were a new technology. Had the situation happened say a decade earlier, most likely none of the cars would have had airbrakes - so there would be no airbrakes to lock up.
In 1900, block signaling was still being developed. If the situation had come up a decade or so later, most likely Casey would have passed a yellow signal several miles back, indicating the track at the siding wasn't clear, and (if he obeyed the signal) would have slowed down enough to stop short of the other train.
BigJim Having been away from social media for a week and just coming upon this thread, I find the education of Ed excruciatingly painful!
Having been away from social media for a week and just coming upon this thread, I find the education of Ed excruciatingly painful!
Yes. But rewarding!
I've been away from social media since before it existed. Am I missing something important?
Ed
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wjstixI believe the NYC caboose shows an early type of rear marker where a lighted kerosene lamp would be put inside the 'cages' when running a train at night.
Could be.
NYC_Palmer_marker by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
7j43kIt is difficult to let go of the idea that two red flags or two red lights on the rear of a train are NOT there to prevent rear-end collision.
To round out or clarify what has been said...
A following train travelling at track speed wouldn't have a chance in hell at slowing down and stopping if they came up on the markers on a stopped train on a curve.
Rear end protection is and/or was provided by:
- [a stopped train] sending out flagmen to a safe distance to wave down any approaching trains. when the train is ready to move again, the flagman leaves "torpedos" (small explosive caps clipped to the rail that make a loud BANG when run over) to alert any train that hits one to slow down to restricted speed.
- [a delayed/slow-running train] drops "fusees" (flares with a timed burn rate) out behind them. A train coming onto a burning fusee slows down to restricted speed.
- signal protection in ABS or CTC territory.
- in modern direct radio communication like Track Warrants, the dispatcher only gives authority to tracks that are known to be clear, and trains report their progress giving "track releases" when they're clear of specific points.
Rear end protection procedures should make it that a train is already stopped or stopping before it even sees the markers.
7j43kTrain A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no [markers] on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched"
Yes, this.
If you are waiting for a train to pass, it's not passed until the markers are passed.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Overmod Also explains why the caboose lights were so dim that Casey had insufficient warning to stop.
Casey probably had insufficient warning to stop but the caboose lights had nothing to do with it. The rear car could have been a Lionel searchlight car and he would have hit it because he was short flagged and running too fast.
Think of it this way. The warning panels etc on a caboose is like hanging a tennis ball from the ceiling of your garage to tell you when to stop when pulling into the garage. Yes, it tells you when to stop but you had better be creeping along when you get to it. If you pull in your garage at 50 mph, it doesn't matter what color the ball is or how easy it is to see, your are going to hit the ball and the garage wall.
The same with a train, yes the red panels help with the visibility of seeing the caboose. But in most cases if you are going 50 mph when you see the caboose, your train is going to hit the caboose, and if you are going 50 mph and are 200 yds away, as in the original question, then yes, except maybe for a one or two car train, you are definitely going to hit the caboose. What keeps you from hitting the caboose is NOT the relefective panels, its the restrictive signals or flagman that got you down to restricted speed a half mile or mile before getting to the caboose, way before you could see it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
OvermodThe take-home message is that the use of red flags as markers in the rulebook sense is not the same thing as, say, Conrail requiring two red lights on the 'back' end of moving equipment, or transit systems displaying red lights to the rear when running.
Not really. In all situations here, the red light(s) to the rear are denoting the end of the train. Those red lights on Conrail and transit examples ARE markers.
OvermodI think it is pretty obvious that if you have a bright or oscillating red light at the rear of a train, a rule accepting this as a 'marker' for purposes of establishing rear-of train status would be sensible. But this remains a separate secondary use, much as current rules allow a dimmed headlight on DP power to serve as an end-of-train indication, even though not red, and not ceasing to be anything but a headlight mechanically.
Still being used as a marker.
Some engines equipped for DPU service also have red marker lights built in, which will be illuminated.
Some railroads' modern rule books allow for dimmed headlights on rear-end pushers/DPU to be used as markers on engines not specifically equipped.
Also, the FRED/EOT devices fulfil the same marker rule on modern trains.
Thank you, Chris.
7j43kYes, there could have been lit or unlit marker lamps, but no flags. Hence my statement that there were no flags does not eliminate the possibility that there WERE lit or unlit marker lamps.
Except in the context of discussing what a train would do if there were no flags, the marker lamps (lit or unlit) serve the exact same function, so the rules and actions apply to EITHER flags or lamps.
You can't just say "the train arrived with no flags, so xxx action" and then "oh but btw there were marker lights" because flags or lamps are the same (in context of determining the meaning and actions to take or not take)...
7j43kNo, in that most of the time "flags" WERE present as markers in the daytime on the SP&S. And not lit or unlit marker lamps.
That is not universal to all railroads (i.e. for many it was common to always use marker lamps), and since the point is that you can have flags OR lamps under the same rules, flags or lamps are treated the same.
When talking about actions and procedures, we should talk about "markers" as they can take many forms under different rulebooks and/or situations.
wjstixThe paddle on the ATSF caboose can be raised or lowered manually by the crew as a signal. It isn't a 'wig-wag', it doesn't wave back and forth.
I do not in fact know if there was enough 'handle' in there to wave the signal to get attention from the head end as opposed to just dropping it 'outboard' enough to clear the sides of the cars. But I presume that was part of the original design intent -- to duplicate a lantern signal at much greater scale, reach, and candlepower.
Note that the reason there are 'two per car' is likely to have one facing the 'front' either way the car was turned, rather than having one face the rear to be used as a better rear-end light warning to approaching trains. I expect ATSF historical specialists, or material in library collections like de Golyer or Mercantile, would establish this, oerhaps even showing an evolution in practical use over the years before radio came in fully.
wjstix A "wig-wag" is a moving, lighted automated warning sign telling automobile traffic a train is approaching the street or road crossing the wig-wag signs are protecting. The paddle on the ATSF caboose can be raised or lowered manually by the crew as a signal. It isn't a 'wig-wag', it doesn't wave back and forth.
A "wig-wag" is a moving, lighted automated warning sign telling automobile traffic a train is approaching the street or road crossing the wig-wag signs are protecting. The paddle on the ATSF caboose can be raised or lowered manually by the crew as a signal. It isn't a 'wig-wag', it doesn't wave back and forth.
But the Santa Fe called them wig wag signals (see scheme in second pic of the link):
http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/WigWag/Index.htm
cv_acrAnd most of the time "flags" won't be present, because most of the time lamps will be used for the markers. Flags can be used as markers, but markers are not necessarily flags. Talking about MARKERS, not flags, is correct.
Talking about MARKERS, not flags, is correct.
Yes, there could have been lit or unlit marker lamps, but no flags. Hence my statement that there were no flags does not eliminate the possibility that there WERE lit or unlit marker lamps.
No, in that most of the time "flags" WERE present as markers in the daytime on the SP&S. And not lit or unlit marker lamps. I will have to revisit photos of the rear of SP&S trains to see if I can find any with marker lamps running during the day. The flags are what have caught my eye, to date; and I cannot honestly say there was "no" use of daytime marker lamps.
I am sure that there are quite a few on this forum who know more than I about the rules of railroad operation. And I learn, I hope, something every time they write. As I am now.
I could wish that some of them, when they write, wouldn't embed in their writing the concept of "you stupid idiot....."
I believe the NYC caboose shows an early type of rear marker where a lighted kerosene lamp would be put inside the 'cages' when running a train at night. When the run was done, the lamp would be removed and extinguished, leaving just the 'cages' shown in the photo during the day.
7j43k I chose to use flags in my example. I suppose you could argue that there WERE markers, but no flags. But it's my story. And I chose flags.
I chose to use flags in my example. I suppose you could argue that there WERE markers, but no flags. But it's my story. And I chose flags.
And most of the time "flags" won't be present, because most of the time lamps will be used for the markers. Flags can be used as markers, but markers are not necessarily flags.
You're fighting with someone who did this professionally and knows what he's talking about.
dehusman And that they reason they were used was for scenarios like this (pretty much restating what you said): Train A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no flags on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched", quite likely by a backwards movement of the front of Train B. And then the flags would properly pass. MARKERS. The term you are searching for is markers. Flags can be any one of a dozen different signals for different purposes. MARKER are the signals used to indicate the rear of a train. They can be flags, lights, reflective panels, EOT, lots of different things.
And that they reason they were used was for scenarios like this (pretty much restating what you said): Train A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no flags on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched", quite likely by a backwards movement of the front of Train B. And then the flags would properly pass.
MARKERS. The term you are searching for is markers. Flags can be any one of a dozen different signals for different purposes. MARKER are the signals used to indicate the rear of a train. They can be flags, lights, reflective panels, EOT, lots of different things.
I wasn't "searching" for a term. I used the word "flags":
"19. Unless otherwise provided, the following signals must be displayed...to the rear of every train, as markers, to indicate the rear of the train:
By day, marker lamps lighted or unlighted, or green flags;"
I'll just not bother to respond to the rest of your comments.
7j43kAm I correct in now believing that the presence of flags on the rear of a train is NOT to prevent REAR-END collision?
Not in the way you asked the question. Yes they do help prevent a collision because many of them are reflective and so visible from further away, but your scenario and the wording of the question is what prompted my answer.
Train C, following Train B, may well crash into the now "missing" rear part of Train B. But that is not related to the flags on Train B.
Not if the crews are doing what they are supposed to.
If there was a block signal system then 3 to 10 miles behind the stopped train B would be an approach signal which would tell the train C to prepare to stop at the next signal. That next signal woud be behind B to a couple miles behind B. It would either be a Stop signal or a Stop and Proceed. Assuming it was a stop and proceed , C would stop, then proceed at restricted speed, prepared to stop short of (or in later rule books, within half the range of vision of) train or obstruction. So C would be traveling slow enough to get stopped BEFORE it collides with B. Now having the reflective panels makes it easier for C to see B, but even if there were no reflective panels C should be moving slow enough to get stopped.
Or if there was no signal system (or the rules required flagging even in signaled territory), since we are talking about cabooses, flagging would likely be required. That means that a crewman, a brakeman or "flagman" from train B would walk back a mile or two, set two torpedoes on the the track and then walk half way back to the train. When C approaches it runs over the torpedoes (explosive noise makers) that signal the train to immediately reduce to restricted speed and prepare to stop short of a flagman. C also sounds off a whistle signal. The flagman stops train C, then depending on what's going on the train will either stay there or advance toward B, stopping short of B.
And then C has to flag its rear end.
It is difficult to let go of the idea that two red flags or two red lights on the rear of a train are NOT there to prevent rear-end collision.
Not if you are familiar with trains. Trains take a LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNG time to stop.* A heavy train traveling at 50 mph takes about a mile to stop. That's why your sceanrio about the train seeing the caboose 200 yards away and getting stopped is ridiculous. If a train is going 50 mph and sees a caboose 200 yards ahead of it, it will get stopped after shoving the caboose through the rear 15-20 cars of the train.
I believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting.
You are confusing "visibility" with "protection". What protects the rear of the train is the block signal system or the flagman. The red light makes the train move visible so that the train creeping along at restricted speed can see it more easily. But what's really protecting the rear of the train is restricted speed and ther things (signal or flagman) that got the following train down to restricted speed.
Unless its miles of perfectly flat, tangent track, if a following train is moving along at track speed and you are relying on whatever lights or flags or whatever to "protect" the rear of the train, you are asking for a collision.
* While its true that it takes a long time to stop a train, a train is one of the few vehicles that can stop in its own length at normal operating speeds. A mile long train running at track speed can stop in a mile. A car traveling at 55 mph can get stopped in a car length, nor can a ship traveling at its cruising speed get stopped in its length. A plane traveling several hundred miles an hour can't get stopped in its own length.
7j43kI believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting.
I note that the description Ed provided includes a 'blackout' relay to douse the headlight, more indication this was intended often as an alert to passing trains to watch for fouling or other problems rather than as a same-track anticollision alert.
7j43k So this topic is really just about NYC practice, not the general case? I guess the Santa Fe wig-wag threw me off. Ed
So this topic is really just about NYC practice, not the general case?
I guess the Santa Fe wig-wag threw me off.
Ed,
Although my interests are primarily the NYC and Ed (gmpullman) is aware of that, it was a general question in what era those paddle/disc signals would have been used. I love trackside wigwag signals so seeing the Santa Fe caboose with that particular design installed gave me a chuckle. It was more of a side comment/observation than the thrust of my query. Sorry for the confusion.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
gmpullman Another curious thing I've come across now. In three cases I've found photos of NYC cabooses with "skeleton" kerosene markers hanging from the brackets! No lenses, presumably no font. Quite curious.
Another curious thing I've come across now. In three cases I've found photos of NYC cabooses with "skeleton" kerosene markers hanging from the brackets!
No lenses, presumably no font. Quite curious.
I can't lay my hands on my older rulebooks right now, but I do remember that in early Consolidated Code and C&NW rulebooks, it specifically states that marker lamps do not have to be lit during the day to be considered valid markers.Remember, the purpose of markers is simply to say "That's all, folks!"
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Notice the instructions say "does not interfere with manual control" unless you have a brake pressure trigger.
7j43kwhen not operated automatically
Mars_Signal by Edmund, on Flickr
Mars_Pressure-switch by Edmund, on Flickr
I could be wrong.
tstageThanks, Ed. I seem to remember seeing photos of them on later cabooses but was curious about the era used.
Glad it helped, Tom. I've since uncovered an earlier photo showing a day marker in use in July of 1961:
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/pages-from-1975q1.pdf
Go to page 10. Also on pg. 16 is a photo of a bay window with a day target, plus several others scattered throughout the issue.
NYC_wood-caboose by Edmund, on Flickr
Re: cabooses and red lights
From Holbrook and Lorenz's "Waycars of the Chicago, Burlington, & Quincy RR":
I'm looking at a photo of brand new Burlington NE12 waycars (cabooses) that feature a big red light on the end, just under the roof (see also photo of Burlington caboose earlier in the topic). Photo date is 1954.
Most of the photos showing waycars in operation that have the red light DO NOT show flags or standard markers. There is an especially neat picture featuring swirling snow as the train travels on what appears to be a three or four track main.
Different railroads had different rules, of course.
The Consolidated Code of Operating Rules was used by most of the railroads in the Northwest.
The 1959 edition has this:
19(D). On passenger trains so equipped, red rear end light, when not operated automatically must, unless otherwise provided, be displayed in oscillating position from sunset to sunrise...It must also be displayed in oscillating positin by day when the train is moving under circumstances in which it may be overtaken by another train, or other emergency conditions require.
There is nothing requiring it to be specifically connected to brake line activation. I have one photo of such a setup where there is clearly NOT a connection.
In this video shot around Spokane in 1958, all passenger trains display such lights. One UP one appears not to have markers. Another one does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDO_Fu-U33A&t=76s
There appears not to be anything prohibiting using it at all times, which seems the best choice.
gmpullmanThe earliest photographic evidence I have shows them in use in March of 1962. This seems to align with their mention of them in my October 28, 1962 Lake Division timetable...IF I find photos of usage of the NYC day markers earlier than 1962 I'll update. My 1956 rulebook makes no mention of them.
Thanks, Ed. I seem to remember seeing photos of them on later cabooses but was curious about the era used.
7j43kI believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting. And that when the red light was on, it could be accepted as a substitute for the red flags or markers.
Of course much depends on A) the era and B) the signal system in place and C) any train orders in effect.
The main "protection" came in the form of the flagman. Of course there were times when a fast approaching following train made contact with the slower or stopped preceeding train before the flagman even had a chance to get in place to offer protection. Torpedoes and dropped fusees were yet another form of protection.
I'm not aware of any railroad that recognized a Mars or Gyra warning light as a substitute for markers. "Generally" those only activated when brake pipe pressure dropped below a set point, indicating an emergency application.
However, here's the Santa Fe displaying one red 'eyeball' and no other marker so presumably the AT&SF accepts this as a marker.
Super-Chief_67 by Edmund, on Flickr
It does not appear to be an oscillating light, just solid red. On the other hand:
Mr_Claytor by Edmund, on Flickr
Mr. Claytor, here has a red flag by day and the lantern, presumably, to be illuminated prior to dusk. Curious as to why no "true" markers in the brackets (maybe he didn't want to scratch the paint?). In this case the similar, single red light doesn't count as a marker.
This Rock Island E6 is the rear of the train and the "classification lights" have been flipped over to red making them, effectively, marker lights.
CRIP_E6_12-71 by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's the flagman performing his task (sort of: "short-flagging") note the rear car has the Gyralight and markers. It's the markers that count.
Chicago Great Western coach 201 (ex-Milwaukee Road) with CGW Train 13 at Council Bluffs on August 8, 1962 by Marty Bernard, on Flickr
A couple roads, I'm thinking of the Nickel Plate and the Milwaukee, had their red to the rear Gyralights illuminated all the while the train was on the road but additionally had the marker lamps, too. NKP had Gyralights on their cabooses, too.
NKP_Gyralite by Edmund, on Flickr
Well, until this thingy came along and changed everything:
EOT by Craig Sanders, on Flickr
dehusman7j43kWhat fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?I have no idea what you are asking.
7j43kWhat fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?
The take-home message is that the use of red flags as markers in the rulebook sense is not the same thing as, say, Conrail requiring two red lights on the 'back' end of moving equipment, or transit systems displaying red lights to the rear when running. Presumably by extension, the use of red marker lights is a nighttime extension of the flag usage: to connote that the end of the official 'train' (remember the rulebook definition of 'train'?) has passed a given point.
As an aside, I have thought for many years that a 'correct' explanation of the recorded time of 7002's train between AY and Elida stems from the former recording the time the markers passed him (as in the phrase "#6 by") while the former recorded the time the front of the train reached his position. Also explains why the caboose lights were so dim that Casey had insufficient warning to stop.
It is also pretty evident that the rulebook definition of a 'stop' flag or light is that which is walked, probably a considerable distance, back by the relevant employee, to where it can be seen in actual time to bring the train to a stop. Which even in the age of effective air brakes is most often a distance far longer than the sight distance to lights on the caboose or rear car, be they ever so bright and conveniently well-focused to be resolved from a distance.
I think it is pretty obvious that if you have a bright or oscillating red light at the rear of a train, a rule accepting this as a 'marker' for purposes of establishing rear-of train status would be sensible. But this remains a separate secondary use, much as current rules allow a dimmed headlight on DP power to serve as an end-of-train indication, even though not red, and not ceasing to be anything but a headlight mechanically.