When were paddles/discs like the ones below commonly used as daytime signaling on the end of cabooses?
Although I've seen photos of them in use before, I did a google search for them this morning but couldn't find even one photo.
I did discover that the Santa Fe used a wigwag version on a few of their cabooses:
Being a fan of wigwags, that was an enjoyable find. Wouldn't have flown on the NYC though.
Anyhow, thanks for any info on the paddle/disc-type signals...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
They were common on the SP&S, and on the BN for awhile, at least on the old SP&S lines. In answer to the specific question, on THIS (SP&S) railroad, from the beginning until very roughly 1975.
In Ed Austin's fine book, "Burlington Northern Washington, Volume 1", there are a number of photos showing this.
My favorite is of an ex-GN "sports model" repainted into BN colors (page 107, BN 10370, August 17, 1974).
Here, illustrating "sports model", is one without the flags:
and here's a non-sports one WITH a flag:
I think the flag requirement ended when a caboose had a red light lit. So, once a caboose had them, the flags disappeared. A BRIGHT red light (NOT a marker light) to the rear would seem to have a lot more visual reach, which can explain why they were so popular on passenger trains.
But the caboose in the photo from the book DID have a red/green light available, yet had two red flags.
Ed
The point of a red flag or red light or red lit markers was to warn following trains of an obstruction.
Sometimes there were additional "features". In particular, changing the red color to yellow or green, sometimes on only one side, would usually tell a following train that the former was in the clear. I truly wonder what use a tiny green flag would actually BE.
I think the Santa Fe wig-wag was meant for the latter purpose. And I suspect that a caboose would also carry red flags and/or markers for the more typical end of train indicator.
Here's an article about the Santa Fe wig-wags:
http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/WigWag/Index.htm
You'll see a photo of a caboose at the rear of a train with both the wig-wag AND markers.
In summary:
The red flag/light was an end-of-train warning.
All other colors to the rear (markers being able to be lit to the side, also) were "signal devices", as were the wig-wags.
Here's another very nice shot:
Note that the red light is available. MAYBE it's "broke".
The one on the left looks strangely homemade. And strangely similar to the one showing on the Big Sky Blue car.
I think there were sometimes two-sided flags, say red and green. I would worry about an accidental "flip". But as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react. "Mikey. Did you bring your binoculars this trip?"
PS: That's also a very nice photo of a ballasted multi-track through girder bridge! That plank is a new one on me.
Note the track is curved. Reminds me of a topic earlier........
I recall seeing the "day markers" on my young days of hanging around the New York Central.
The earliest photographic evidence I have shows them in use in March of 1962. This seems to align with their mention of them in my October 28, 1962 Lake Division timetable:
NYCS_ETT12_10-28-62 by Edmund, on Flickr
Rule 19.
Probably more important than any kind of warning device the markers were necessary to designate the end of the train. No operator can report a train "by" without actually seeing the marker, weather it be a ratty old flag stuck in the knuckle of the last coupler or fancy illuminated Adlake streamlined markers built in to the newest observation cars. It is not a train without those markers.
The actual, bright red markers we see today are the result of FRA studies and the higher visibility was deemed necessary.
Those Santa Fe paddles were used for communication with the engine crew and I don't believe they were related to any "marker" rules. I'll have to follow up on that. Marker lamps were required per usual timetable rules. Radios and excess-height cars made the wig-wags obsolete.
IF I find photos of usage of the NYC day markers earlier than 1962 I'll update. My 1956 rulebook makes no mention of them. I actually had a pair a while back. I loaned them to my nephew and he left them on the back of a car he was moving from Cincinnati to Chicago... then forgot they were there! Bye-bye markers.
I don't recall any actual "reflectorization" on them. Simply painted a bright red. Perhaps some were actually "Scotchlite" but I'm guessing after buying a number of them the money-tight NYC began making their own replacements and using plain old sheet metal and red paint.
They nested in a half-arc, cast iron bracket with hair-pin cotters holding the disc in place. The wedge-shaped key was cast into the bracket.\
The Erie-Lackawanna used nearly identical day markers at about the same time the NYC did.
EL_Last-Lake Cities-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
I believe the ATSF wig-wags were only for signaling the engine crew; in fact I think some of them actually used searchlight-signal optics (if that reference to 'searchette' 4" bulbs means what I think it will). There is no light to the rear at all, even in an era other roads were implementing red or Mars lights to front and rear for emergency or unanticipated stops, for which a light on an extendable or swinging paddle would have been near-perfect.
7j43kBut as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react.
You are confusing markers with automobile tailights.
The markers tell trains being met or passed that all the train is by. It a train meets another train and the markers go by the train being met, that means the ENTIRE train has gone by and its afe for the waiting train to leave. If the there is no marker, then the train waiting still has to wait for the rest of the train.
They aren't the thing that tells a following train to stop. That is done by signals or actions a mile to miles behind the train. By the time the following train could see the caboose it is expected to be moving slow enough to stop short of or within half the range of vision of the train ahead, i.e. moving very slow.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman 7j43k But as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react. You are confusing markers with automobile tailights. The markers tell trains being met or passed that all the train is by. It a train meets another train and the markers go by the train being met, that means the ENTIRE train has gone by and its afe for the waiting train to leave. If the there is no marker, then the train waiting still has to wait for the rest of the train. They aren't the thing that tells a following train to stop. That is done by signals or actions a mile to miles behind the train. By the time the following train could see the caboose it is expected to be moving slow enough to stop short of or within half the range of vision of the train ahead, i.e. moving very slow.
7j43k But as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react.
So you have these red flags at the rear of the train. And when an approaching train can get near enough to see whether the flags are there or not, that train must take proper action.
If the flags are there, there is probably no action needed.
If the flags are not there, what action should this train take (being perhaps 200 yards away)?
My point is that all actions required must be safely carried out within 200 yards of the flags, or lack thereof.
What actions should the crew take, when 200 yards from rolling stock apparently on their track, that show no flags?
Consideration should be given that this may be ABS signaling, and that the signaling is giving our train a clear track.
What fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?
7j43kIf the flags are there, there is probably no action needed.
Hell no, STOP.
STOP.
You had better be planning to stop, have the brakes set way before 200 yards.
7j43kWhat fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?
I have no idea what you are asking.
Dave,
Thank you for your responses.
Am I correct in now believing that the presence of flags on the rear of a train is NOT to prevent REAR-END collision?
And that they reason they were used was for scenarios like this (pretty much restating what you said):
Train A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no flags on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched", quite likely by a backwards movement of the front of Train B. And then the flags would properly pass.
Train C, following Train B, may well crash into the now "missing" rear part of Train B. But that is not related to the flags on Train B. ABS signaling would be a real convenience. Which explains its enthusiastic adoption some time ago.
This does not bring in telegraphy, nor dispatchers into the discussion, of course.
It is difficult to let go of the idea that two red flags or two red lights on the rear of a train are NOT there to prevent rear-end collision.
I believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting. And that when the red light was on, it could be accepted as a substitute for the red flags or markers.
dehusman7j43kWhat fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?I have no idea what you are asking.
The take-home message is that the use of red flags as markers in the rulebook sense is not the same thing as, say, Conrail requiring two red lights on the 'back' end of moving equipment, or transit systems displaying red lights to the rear when running. Presumably by extension, the use of red marker lights is a nighttime extension of the flag usage: to connote that the end of the official 'train' (remember the rulebook definition of 'train'?) has passed a given point.
As an aside, I have thought for many years that a 'correct' explanation of the recorded time of 7002's train between AY and Elida stems from the former recording the time the markers passed him (as in the phrase "#6 by") while the former recorded the time the front of the train reached his position. Also explains why the caboose lights were so dim that Casey had insufficient warning to stop.
It is also pretty evident that the rulebook definition of a 'stop' flag or light is that which is walked, probably a considerable distance, back by the relevant employee, to where it can be seen in actual time to bring the train to a stop. Which even in the age of effective air brakes is most often a distance far longer than the sight distance to lights on the caboose or rear car, be they ever so bright and conveniently well-focused to be resolved from a distance.
I think it is pretty obvious that if you have a bright or oscillating red light at the rear of a train, a rule accepting this as a 'marker' for purposes of establishing rear-of train status would be sensible. But this remains a separate secondary use, much as current rules allow a dimmed headlight on DP power to serve as an end-of-train indication, even though not red, and not ceasing to be anything but a headlight mechanically.
7j43kI believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting. And that when the red light was on, it could be accepted as a substitute for the red flags or markers.
Of course much depends on A) the era and B) the signal system in place and C) any train orders in effect.
The main "protection" came in the form of the flagman. Of course there were times when a fast approaching following train made contact with the slower or stopped preceeding train before the flagman even had a chance to get in place to offer protection. Torpedoes and dropped fusees were yet another form of protection.
I'm not aware of any railroad that recognized a Mars or Gyra warning light as a substitute for markers. "Generally" those only activated when brake pipe pressure dropped below a set point, indicating an emergency application.
However, here's the Santa Fe displaying one red 'eyeball' and no other marker so presumably the AT&SF accepts this as a marker.
Super-Chief_67 by Edmund, on Flickr
It does not appear to be an oscillating light, just solid red. On the other hand:
Mr_Claytor by Edmund, on Flickr
Mr. Claytor, here has a red flag by day and the lantern, presumably, to be illuminated prior to dusk. Curious as to why no "true" markers in the brackets (maybe he didn't want to scratch the paint?). In this case the similar, single red light doesn't count as a marker.
This Rock Island E6 is the rear of the train and the "classification lights" have been flipped over to red making them, effectively, marker lights.
CRIP_E6_12-71 by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's the flagman performing his task (sort of: "short-flagging") note the rear car has the Gyralight and markers. It's the markers that count.
Chicago Great Western coach 201 (ex-Milwaukee Road) with CGW Train 13 at Council Bluffs on August 8, 1962 by Marty Bernard, on Flickr
A couple roads, I'm thinking of the Nickel Plate and the Milwaukee, had their red to the rear Gyralights illuminated all the while the train was on the road but additionally had the marker lamps, too. NKP had Gyralights on their cabooses, too.
NKP_Gyralite by Edmund, on Flickr
Well, until this thingy came along and changed everything:
EOT by Craig Sanders, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanThe earliest photographic evidence I have shows them in use in March of 1962. This seems to align with their mention of them in my October 28, 1962 Lake Division timetable...IF I find photos of usage of the NYC day markers earlier than 1962 I'll update. My 1956 rulebook makes no mention of them.
Thanks, Ed. I seem to remember seeing photos of them on later cabooses but was curious about the era used.
The Consolidated Code of Operating Rules was used by most of the railroads in the Northwest.
The 1959 edition has this:
19(D). On passenger trains so equipped, red rear end light, when not operated automatically must, unless otherwise provided, be displayed in oscillating position from sunset to sunrise...It must also be displayed in oscillating positin by day when the train is moving under circumstances in which it may be overtaken by another train, or other emergency conditions require.
There is nothing requiring it to be specifically connected to brake line activation. I have one photo of such a setup where there is clearly NOT a connection.
In this video shot around Spokane in 1958, all passenger trains display such lights. One UP one appears not to have markers. Another one does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDO_Fu-U33A&t=76s
There appears not to be anything prohibiting using it at all times, which seems the best choice.
Re: cabooses and red lights
From Holbrook and Lorenz's "Waycars of the Chicago, Burlington, & Quincy RR":
I'm looking at a photo of brand new Burlington NE12 waycars (cabooses) that feature a big red light on the end, just under the roof (see also photo of Burlington caboose earlier in the topic). Photo date is 1954.
Most of the photos showing waycars in operation that have the red light DO NOT show flags or standard markers. There is an especially neat picture featuring swirling snow as the train travels on what appears to be a three or four track main.
Different railroads had different rules, of course.
tstageThanks, Ed. I seem to remember seeing photos of them on later cabooses but was curious about the era used.
Glad it helped, Tom. I've since uncovered an earlier photo showing a day marker in use in July of 1961:
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/pages-from-1975q1.pdf
Go to page 10. Also on pg. 16 is a photo of a bay window with a day target, plus several others scattered throughout the issue.
Another curious thing I've come across now. In three cases I've found photos of NYC cabooses with "skeleton" kerosene markers hanging from the brackets!
No lenses, presumably no font. Quite curious.
NYC_wood-caboose by Edmund, on Flickr
So this topic is really just about NYC practice, not the general case?
I guess the Santa Fe wig-wag threw me off.
7j43kwhen not operated automatically
Mars_Signal by Edmund, on Flickr
Mars_Pressure-switch by Edmund, on Flickr
I could be wrong.
Notice the instructions say "does not interfere with manual control" unless you have a brake pressure trigger.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
gmpullman Another curious thing I've come across now. In three cases I've found photos of NYC cabooses with "skeleton" kerosene markers hanging from the brackets! No lenses, presumably no font. Quite curious.
I can't lay my hands on my older rulebooks right now, but I do remember that in early Consolidated Code and C&NW rulebooks, it specifically states that marker lamps do not have to be lit during the day to be considered valid markers.Remember, the purpose of markers is simply to say "That's all, folks!"
7j43k So this topic is really just about NYC practice, not the general case? I guess the Santa Fe wig-wag threw me off. Ed
Ed,
Although my interests are primarily the NYC and Ed (gmpullman) is aware of that, it was a general question in what era those paddle/disc signals would have been used. I love trackside wigwag signals so seeing the Santa Fe caboose with that particular design installed gave me a chuckle. It was more of a side comment/observation than the thrust of my query. Sorry for the confusion.
7j43kI believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting.
I note that the description Ed provided includes a 'blackout' relay to douse the headlight, more indication this was intended often as an alert to passing trains to watch for fouling or other problems rather than as a same-track anticollision alert.
7j43kAm I correct in now believing that the presence of flags on the rear of a train is NOT to prevent REAR-END collision?
Not in the way you asked the question. Yes they do help prevent a collision because many of them are reflective and so visible from further away, but your scenario and the wording of the question is what prompted my answer.
And that they reason they were used was for scenarios like this (pretty much restating what you said): Train A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no flags on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched", quite likely by a backwards movement of the front of Train B. And then the flags would properly pass.
MARKERS. The term you are searching for is markers. Flags can be any one of a dozen different signals for different purposes. MARKER are the signals used to indicate the rear of a train. They can be flags, lights, reflective panels, EOT, lots of different things.
Train C, following Train B, may well crash into the now "missing" rear part of Train B. But that is not related to the flags on Train B.
Not if the crews are doing what they are supposed to.
If there was a block signal system then 3 to 10 miles behind the stopped train B would be an approach signal which would tell the train C to prepare to stop at the next signal. That next signal woud be behind B to a couple miles behind B. It would either be a Stop signal or a Stop and Proceed. Assuming it was a stop and proceed , C would stop, then proceed at restricted speed, prepared to stop short of (or in later rule books, within half the range of vision of) train or obstruction. So C would be traveling slow enough to get stopped BEFORE it collides with B. Now having the reflective panels makes it easier for C to see B, but even if there were no reflective panels C should be moving slow enough to get stopped.
Or if there was no signal system (or the rules required flagging even in signaled territory), since we are talking about cabooses, flagging would likely be required. That means that a crewman, a brakeman or "flagman" from train B would walk back a mile or two, set two torpedoes on the the track and then walk half way back to the train. When C approaches it runs over the torpedoes (explosive noise makers) that signal the train to immediately reduce to restricted speed and prepare to stop short of a flagman. C also sounds off a whistle signal. The flagman stops train C, then depending on what's going on the train will either stay there or advance toward B, stopping short of B.
And then C has to flag its rear end.
Not if you are familiar with trains. Trains take a LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNG time to stop.* A heavy train traveling at 50 mph takes about a mile to stop. That's why your sceanrio about the train seeing the caboose 200 yards away and getting stopped is ridiculous. If a train is going 50 mph and sees a caboose 200 yards ahead of it, it will get stopped after shoving the caboose through the rear 15-20 cars of the train.
I believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting.
You are confusing "visibility" with "protection". What protects the rear of the train is the block signal system or the flagman. The red light makes the train move visible so that the train creeping along at restricted speed can see it more easily. But what's really protecting the rear of the train is restricted speed and ther things (signal or flagman) that got the following train down to restricted speed.
Unless its miles of perfectly flat, tangent track, if a following train is moving along at track speed and you are relying on whatever lights or flags or whatever to "protect" the rear of the train, you are asking for a collision.
* While its true that it takes a long time to stop a train, a train is one of the few vehicles that can stop in its own length at normal operating speeds. A mile long train running at track speed can stop in a mile. A car traveling at 55 mph can get stopped in a car length, nor can a ship traveling at its cruising speed get stopped in its length. A plane traveling several hundred miles an hour can't get stopped in its own length.
dehusman And that they reason they were used was for scenarios like this (pretty much restating what you said): Train A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no flags on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched", quite likely by a backwards movement of the front of Train B. And then the flags would properly pass. MARKERS. The term you are searching for is markers. Flags can be any one of a dozen different signals for different purposes. MARKER are the signals used to indicate the rear of a train. They can be flags, lights, reflective panels, EOT, lots of different things.
I wasn't "searching" for a term. I used the word "flags":
"19. Unless otherwise provided, the following signals must be displayed...to the rear of every train, as markers, to indicate the rear of the train:
By day, marker lamps lighted or unlighted, or green flags;"
I chose to use flags in my example. I suppose you could argue that there WERE markers, but no flags. But it's my story. And I chose flags.
I'll just not bother to respond to the rest of your comments.
7j43k I chose to use flags in my example. I suppose you could argue that there WERE markers, but no flags. But it's my story. And I chose flags.
And most of the time "flags" won't be present, because most of the time lamps will be used for the markers. Flags can be used as markers, but markers are not necessarily flags.
Talking about MARKERS, not flags, is correct.
You're fighting with someone who did this professionally and knows what he's talking about.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
A "wig-wag" is a moving, lighted automated warning sign telling automobile traffic a train is approaching the street or road crossing the wig-wag signs are protecting. The paddle on the ATSF caboose can be raised or lowered manually by the crew as a signal. It isn't a 'wig-wag', it doesn't wave back and forth.
I believe the NYC caboose shows an early type of rear marker where a lighted kerosene lamp would be put inside the 'cages' when running a train at night. When the run was done, the lamp would be removed and extinguished, leaving just the 'cages' shown in the photo during the day.
cv_acrAnd most of the time "flags" won't be present, because most of the time lamps will be used for the markers. Flags can be used as markers, but markers are not necessarily flags. Talking about MARKERS, not flags, is correct.
Yes, there could have been lit or unlit marker lamps, but no flags. Hence my statement that there were no flags does not eliminate the possibility that there WERE lit or unlit marker lamps.
No, in that most of the time "flags" WERE present as markers in the daytime on the SP&S. And not lit or unlit marker lamps. I will have to revisit photos of the rear of SP&S trains to see if I can find any with marker lamps running during the day. The flags are what have caught my eye, to date; and I cannot honestly say there was "no" use of daytime marker lamps.
I am sure that there are quite a few on this forum who know more than I about the rules of railroad operation. And I learn, I hope, something every time they write. As I am now.
I could wish that some of them, when they write, wouldn't embed in their writing the concept of "you stupid idiot....."
wjstix A "wig-wag" is a moving, lighted automated warning sign telling automobile traffic a train is approaching the street or road crossing the wig-wag signs are protecting. The paddle on the ATSF caboose can be raised or lowered manually by the crew as a signal. It isn't a 'wig-wag', it doesn't wave back and forth.
But the Santa Fe called them wig wag signals (see scheme in second pic of the link):
wjstixThe paddle on the ATSF caboose can be raised or lowered manually by the crew as a signal. It isn't a 'wig-wag', it doesn't wave back and forth.
I do not in fact know if there was enough 'handle' in there to wave the signal to get attention from the head end as opposed to just dropping it 'outboard' enough to clear the sides of the cars. But I presume that was part of the original design intent -- to duplicate a lantern signal at much greater scale, reach, and candlepower.
Note that the reason there are 'two per car' is likely to have one facing the 'front' either way the car was turned, rather than having one face the rear to be used as a better rear-end light warning to approaching trains. I expect ATSF historical specialists, or material in library collections like de Golyer or Mercantile, would establish this, oerhaps even showing an evolution in practical use over the years before radio came in fully.
7j43kYes, there could have been lit or unlit marker lamps, but no flags. Hence my statement that there were no flags does not eliminate the possibility that there WERE lit or unlit marker lamps.
Except in the context of discussing what a train would do if there were no flags, the marker lamps (lit or unlit) serve the exact same function, so the rules and actions apply to EITHER flags or lamps.
You can't just say "the train arrived with no flags, so xxx action" and then "oh but btw there were marker lights" because flags or lamps are the same (in context of determining the meaning and actions to take or not take)...
7j43kNo, in that most of the time "flags" WERE present as markers in the daytime on the SP&S. And not lit or unlit marker lamps.
That is not universal to all railroads (i.e. for many it was common to always use marker lamps), and since the point is that you can have flags OR lamps under the same rules, flags or lamps are treated the same.
When talking about actions and procedures, we should talk about "markers" as they can take many forms under different rulebooks and/or situations.