I prefer HO trucks in flat grey, because it is easier to see detail at a distance, regardless of prototype.
wojosa31When I attended the Car Inspection and repair training, at Holidaysburg, while with Conrail
This should bring back some memories, Joe
Enjoy, Ed
it makes sense, that trucks would be supplied as parts, with the car builder doing the assembly.
When I attended the Car Inspection and repair training, at Holidaysburg, while with Conrail, each member of the class was required to participate in the complete breakdown and reassembly of a Ride Control truck. It was and still is a car shop function.
While there, we were shown the Gondola car assembly line, where three gondolas were in various state of assembly. If I remember correctly, the underside of each car was painted before it was flipped. Landing the car on its trucks was the final step. The completed car was moved to a paint booth for the final painting, numbering etc. It was quite cool to watch the process.
Joe
If trucks are shipped as parts kits, painting the parts before shipping would invite a lot of paint chipping, both in transit, and later, during assembly.
I asked about this two hours ago over on the steam freight car Yahoo group, where there's a lot of people who Know Things.
Only one answer, so far, from Dennis Storzec, the owner of Accurail:
Trucks were bought as parts, because there were umpteen sources of parts other than the basic castings. The same foundry might supply both side frames and bolsters, OR the customer may have ordered bolsters from a third party, such as Simplex. Springs aren't castings, and came from a different vendor; same with brake components. Bearings, dust guards, and journal covers were other specialties. Wheels and axles came from a different supplier yet.
7j43k It appears, thumbing through the '53 "Car Builders' Cyclopedia", that a company would sell a truck fully assembled, or in parts. A small operation might prefer to have the whole truck delivered, being as it might be irritating to try to assemble it themselves. I don't see the car builders, themselves, having a problem doing the assembly. But that would explain why trucks were offered both ways. Ed
It appears, thumbing through the '53 "Car Builders' Cyclopedia", that a company would sell a truck fully assembled, or in parts. A small operation might prefer to have the whole truck delivered, being as it might be irritating to try to assemble it themselves. I don't see the car builders, themselves, having a problem doing the assembly. But that would explain why trucks were offered both ways.
Ed
But one could also assume that trucks were likely ordered for each run of cars seperately, and one could/would specify options and.......color........
I can see were a small builder, or as a maintenance item to the railroads, assembled might be prefered - but again, I'm sure there was a job spec sheet....
Sheldon
7j43k SeeYou190 Since we have so few color photographs of freight cars before the 60's, there is an awful lot of theorizing on this subject. When Great Northern chose the new boxcar paint scheme featuring Vermilion Red (instead of mineral red), it specified that the carbody was to be Vermilion, the underframe and trucks mineral. And there are some color pictures to demonstrate that. That was before the '60's. Trucks were almost always supplied painted black. I believe they were supplied unpainted. And painted at the builder. Does anyone here even know HOW trucks were supplied? Assembled? How d'ya know? I'm pretty sure ACF could assemble truck pieces somewhere in the plant. The parts would be easier to ship, compared to assembled trucks. If they were shipped as parts, would the parts be painted at the supplier? Or after the truck was assembled at the builder? Ed
SeeYou190 Since we have so few color photographs of freight cars before the 60's, there is an awful lot of theorizing on this subject.
Since we have so few color photographs of freight cars before the 60's, there is an awful lot of theorizing on this subject.
When Great Northern chose the new boxcar paint scheme featuring Vermilion Red (instead of mineral red), it specified that the carbody was to be Vermilion, the underframe and trucks mineral. And there are some color pictures to demonstrate that.
That was before the '60's.
Trucks were almost always supplied painted black.
I believe they were supplied unpainted. And painted at the builder.
Does anyone here even know HOW trucks were supplied? Assembled? How d'ya know? I'm pretty sure ACF could assemble truck pieces somewhere in the plant. The parts would be easier to ship, compared to assembled trucks. If they were shipped as parts, would the parts be painted at the supplier? Or after the truck was assembled at the builder?
It is my understanding that they generally arrived at the builders as parts.
For shipping reasons and because different customers might specify different "details" which would make specific parts different, spring rates, dampeners, wheel sets, types of brake shoes or rigging for specific applications.
And I would suspect painting was done at various sub-assembly levels......
Not only that, the factory that makes the primary castings would seldom if ever make the other parts - springs, bearings, hardware, brake shoes, etc.
SeeYou190 Trucks were almost always supplied painted black. If they were not masked during car painting, they would get a light overspray, or direct heavy spray, of the car color.
Trucks were almost always supplied painted black. If they were not masked during car painting, they would get a light overspray, or direct heavy spray, of the car color.
ATLANTIC CENTRALKevin, I can show you endless builder or shop photos of red oxide cars, with red oxide underframes and trucks.
.
Sheldon,
That is exactly what I said in my post. If the trucks were on the car when it was painted, and not masked, they would get the body color. It only makes sense.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 Trucks were almost always supplied painted black. If they were not masked during car painting, they would get a light overspray, or direct heavy spray, of the car color. . Anyway... they would weather pretty quickly. Since we have so few color photographs of freight cars before the 60's, there is an awful lot of theorizing on this subject. . My favorite way to paint trucks is to start with military drab green, and then add washes of black, brown, and rust. I tend to go a little light so they can be seen with normal layout lighting. . Yes, gray cars could have very well had gray trucks, if the trucks were on the car when it was painted. . -Kevin .
Anyway... they would weather pretty quickly. Since we have so few color photographs of freight cars before the 60's, there is an awful lot of theorizing on this subject.
My favorite way to paint trucks is to start with military drab green, and then add washes of black, brown, and rust. I tend to go a little light so they can be seen with normal layout lighting.
Yes, gray cars could have very well had gray trucks, if the trucks were on the car when it was painted.
Kevin, I can show you endless builder or shop photos of red oxide cars, with red oxide underframes and trucks.
One noteable road for this was the WESTERN MARYLAND, box cars and flat cars in particular.
I think every color photo I have ever seem of as WESTERN MARYLAND flat car has the trucks the same red oxide as the car.........
ATSFGuy Some roads did unique things like paint the truck frames a certain color to have them stand out.
Some roads did unique things like paint the truck frames a certain color to have them stand out.
It's good to have a fashion sense.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrinker Our model railroad history is remarkably similar, Sheldon. Up until I was 10, we only had room for a temporary layout over the holiday season. Each year we added something until it took up every last bit of room we had. At 10 I built my first permanent layout. The only difference was, I was on my own as my Dad passed away the previous Spring. I had a ton of space in my bedroom but not really enough for a 4x8 (until a few years later when we added on to the house) so I brought out the N scale that we hadn't used for a few years and built a 2x4 N scale layout. --Randy Randy, sorry you lost your father at such a young age. My father gets credit for at least half of everything I know or have acomplished in this life. He taught me how to build everything from models, to houses, to automobiles. I still have models he built on my layout today. And I consider myself blessed to have had the foundation in this hobby, and in life, that he provided. Sheldon
rrinker Our model railroad history is remarkably similar, Sheldon. Up until I was 10, we only had room for a temporary layout over the holiday season. Each year we added something until it took up every last bit of room we had. At 10 I built my first permanent layout. The only difference was, I was on my own as my Dad passed away the previous Spring. I had a ton of space in my bedroom but not really enough for a 4x8 (until a few years later when we added on to the house) so I brought out the N scale that we hadn't used for a few years and built a 2x4 N scale layout. --Randy
Our model railroad history is remarkably similar, Sheldon. Up until I was 10, we only had room for a temporary layout over the holiday season. Each year we added something until it took up every last bit of room we had. At 10 I built my first permanent layout. The only difference was, I was on my own as my Dad passed away the previous Spring. I had a ton of space in my bedroom but not really enough for a 4x8 (until a few years later when we added on to the house) so I brought out the N scale that we hadn't used for a few years and built a 2x4 N scale layout.
--Randy
Randy, sorry you lost your father at such a young age.
My father gets credit for at least half of everything I know or have acomplished in this life. He taught me how to build everything from models, to houses, to automobiles.
I still have models he built on my layout today.
And I consider myself blessed to have had the foundation in this hobby, and in life, that he provided.
Indeed. I learned about cars, carpentry, basic electricty, model building, how to shoot - too many things to mention. And always encouraged my curiosity. Despite it all being cut short, I am who I am today in a large part because of my Dad. Definitely my main hobby interests come from him.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Just a bit of background on the Timken boxcar and the AC&Y covered hopper with Timken bearings:
Akron Canton & Youngstown enjoyed a close relationship with the Timken Roller Bearing Company, even though they never actually got as far as Timken's home in Canton, Ohio. The road specified Timken roller bearings on all axles of Lima Mikados 404 and 405 in 1941; Alco S2 diesel D1 in 1942; Lima Mikado 406 in 1944; and Alco RS1 diesel D2 in 1945. All subsequent AC&Y diesels had roller bearings.
AC&Y's first fifteen 70 ton ACF design covered hoppers were numbers 500-514. They were built in 1942 with AAR cast steel trucks and plain bearings. The next 25 cars were 515-539. These were built in 1947 and equipped with Roller Bearing National Type B trucks. All forty cars were painted gray, with gray trucks. The paint scheme shown above is a repaint, circa 1960's. At least one car got a black paint job with white lettering, but that evidently didn't last.
As far as we have been able to determine, there was only one Timken boxcar. It was Timken number 88, built in July, 1943 by ACF. It was your basic 1937 AAR boxcar, but it used inside bearing roller bearing trucks. For a time, it carried a green paint scheme, and may have carried another dark scheme at some time, but it appeared at the Chicago Railroad Exposition in 1948 in yellow with a white band and black roof. Reporting marks were TRBX. The paint scheme and number shown on the Athearn car are probably foobies, vaguely inspired by TRBX 88. At least nobody at the AC&Y Historical Society has found any documentation for it. The idea that there were a number of these cars may come from Timken advertising artwork that shows a long string of similar yellow cars in a train. From 1951 to 1958, the car was leased to AC&Y and carried that same yellow scheme with AC&Y reporting marks and the AC&Y number 600. The large Roller Freight lettering was removed and replaced with a simplified Roller Freight slogan that complemented the AC&Y round logo. It appears that the inside bearing trucks were replaced with some form of outside bearing roller bearing truck in AC&Y service, but information is lacking and photos do not show this clearly. Frames for advertising placards were on the car's ends and side doors in every picture we have seen, including those in AC&Y service.
AC&Y also leased a gondola with Timken roller bearings, AC&Y number 1500, from 1951 to 1958. It had a distinctive red and white paint scheme with black lettering, which also advertised the Timken bearings.
Tom
Ed, apology graciously accepted, and you are most welcome, I was happy to help.
I may be a freelance/protolance modeler, and a east coast modeler (B&O, C&O, WM), but passenger F units are a special interest of mine and yes from my research and memory GN tried a new idea on each batch of passenger F units.......
Back to the inclosed roller bearing trucks - YES they were rare, despite the efforts of Timken to sell the idea.
I suspect in 1950, with those Timken box cars rolling around, it was no different then the way some modelers today are into the latest thing on the rails. That may have made it popular in the hobby, even if the railroads were not buying it much......no doubt most were "test" applications or special service. And when we consider were passenger service was headed, things like express box cars and reefers reall did not have a bright future.....
And, by the time they did start buying, designs had changed. And a decade latter they had no choice.
Yes agreed, I know for a fact Lindberg made all their trucks in all three colors because they could, and they had enough prototype examples to make it a selling point, how ever small in numbers some of those examples might have been.
I grew up working in hobby shops as a teen and young adult, just in time to see the tail end of stuff like Athearn metal cars, Varney, etc. And as a younger child my father was a very serious "holiday modeler". At age 10, once we had the room, he built a permanent layout in the basement and handed over to me by age 12. So my start in the hobby was not only young, but with a high exposure to products somewhat older than my years. I still have Athearn and Varney metal cars on my layout.
Take care,
Pretty sure these trucks are grey, even if not roller bearing
http://www.readingmodeler.info/images/rollingstock/cvdhopper/photo/rdgloa79088.jpg
This one too (look at the ends where not in shadows)
http://www.readingmodeler.info/images/rollingstock/cvdhopper/photo/rdglog79800.JPG
Absolutely this one:
http://www.readingmodeler.info/images/rollingstock/cvdhopper/photo/rdglof79551.jpg
I didn't say the trucks were black. I said they were not-grey. The photos are b&w. I can see that the car and trucks were painted a dark color. Don't know what, for sure. I would place it in the range of a version of "box car red". But not grey--too dark. And the lettering is white. Almost surely.
Lindberg made the first plastic HO truck in the early '60's. I would think they made their trucks in color because they COULD. You can't do that with metal trucks. I think they just "cast about" for colors they thought were common, and used those. Probably for ever truck version they made. I think it also possible that they thought the grey was about as close as they could get to the UP's aluminum.
I apologize for not thanking you. I should have, especially because I tend to be hard on people who don't. Which makes it worse. Again, I apologize.
The information was of use. And I thank you. By the way, I have stayed interested in the subject because I want to do the steam generators on my GN F's correctly. What I have found is that it "seems" like GN put a different arrangement on each passenger F. Yikes, so many ways to put a kupla thingys on a roof.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do find it VERY interesting that any given copy of MR or Craftsman from the early 50's is full of pictures, references, product ads, etc, for Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks, yet today few people, even many transition era modelers, seem to know anything about them?
I do find it VERY interesting that any given copy of MR or Craftsman from the early 50's is full of pictures, references, product ads, etc, for Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks, yet today few people, even many transition era modelers, seem to know anything about them?
You inspired me to have a look at my copy of the 1953 "Car Builders' Cyclopedia". Contrary to your experience with MR and RMC, in the freight truck section of the book, which is 36 pages long, the only evidence of roller bearing trucks is two drawings. Out of 287 freight car photos, 4 had identifiable roller bearings, and two had roller bearing trucks that looked plain.
Of special interest, Timken had a five page ad that listed ALL of the freight cars equipped with their bearings. Other companies with roller bearing ads were Bower-Franklin (?), Hyatt, and SKF.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But you are sure quick with a glib comment when you don't think I offer enough "proof".
But you are sure quick with a glib comment when you don't think I offer enough "proof".
If the glib comment you are referring to was what I said in reference to your link to a photo, it wasn't that you didn't offer enough "proof", it was that the truck in the photo was not the one the OP described.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL We will never know everything about every piece of equipment, so I stopped being OCD about it decades ago, despite considerable study and knowledge on my part. So maybe that is why I answer these questions more "generally". Sorry you find that so offensive. Sheldon
We will never know everything about every piece of equipment, so I stopped being OCD about it decades ago, despite considerable study and knowledge on my part. So maybe that is why I answer these questions more "generally".
Sorry you find that so offensive.
I don't find it offensive if you, or anyone else, answers questions in generalities. As I said, I think it is very helpful. I hope you continue to do so.
Cunningtim EB Products makes a very nice HO National Timken truck (T-327G) but it is molded in gray plastic. My question is what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck? (They also make trucks in Tuscan red, which I also don’t know where you would find in the real world-PRR?)
EB Products makes a very nice HO National Timken truck (T-327G) but it is molded in gray plastic. My question is what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck? (They also make trucks in Tuscan red, which I also don’t know where you would find in the real world-PRR?)
And so there you have it, EB and their predecessor Lindberg offered all their trucks in all three colors, black, grey and oxide.
By the way, EB is for sale, any takers?
Well Ed, the one thing we do agree on is that all the info presented is useful.
OK, so we do have proof that black Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks were installed on covered hoppers in the early 50's. And between us it seems we have only touched on a few railroads and a few resources.
And if one of your photos is a builders photo, I would agree, that group was most likely all built with black trucks. I don't have a copy of that resource........
Maybe we should also consider this point:
Why did Lindberg and later EB make the trucks in grey?
Just so happens I know the answer, I was working ina hobby shop when the Lindberg trucks were on the market......1970/71.
Lindberg offered ALL their styles of trucks in three colors, grey, black and oxide red. Why? Because it was well known back then that a fair number of railroads painted trucks the same color as the equipment with regard to those three colors.
MOW equipment was often grey and often had "dip" paint jobs. With or without roller bearing trucks many (not all by any means) cement hoppers were grey with matching trucks.
Lots of red oxide box cars (and hoppers of all sorts) had red oxide underframes and trucks when built.
Lindberg used this info in their promotion of the product. The rest of the industry generally only offered black, or bare metal of some sort.
Tell you what, you keep on answering questions as you see fit. I was happy to answer your question about steam generators and even provided a reliable source, an actual GM operating manual, for which I got no response from you. Not a thank you, not a challenge, no acknowledgement one way or another.
Related but unrelated fact - The WESTERN MARYLAND bought PS-2 2003 cu ft, 70 ton two bay covered hoppers with friction bearing trucks. By the late 50's they began a complete conversion of those cars to the more common, more modern open rolling bearing trucks most are familiar with, long before they were required. Both the original truck and the replacement trucks were painted to match the grey cars.
Why did they change out trucks less than 10 years old - for the same reasons I suggested originally that covered cement hoppers were a prime target for roller bearing trucks, bad working enviroment around cement dust.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ed, here is the problem as I see it. You seem to take every prototype question like this very literal, and that would be great if we had progesssive photos of every freight car ever built, with dated details of every change ever made to it........but we don't.
Ed, here is the problem as I see it.
You seem to take every prototype question like this very literal, and that would be great if we had progesssive photos of every freight car ever built, with dated details of every change ever made to it........but we don't.
Oh. I thought the problem was that you were answering in generalities instead of specifics. I was trying to find an example of the usage he wanted. You are saying since I can't PROVE these trucks were never used, and that they thus COULD have been used, he can go ahead and put them under just about any car he wants. Which I totally agree with. He can.
But then why would even bother to ask? He could just do it. Unless, of course, he feels the need for approval on the matter.
We don't know if those ACL cars had grey or black trucks when built, we only know that one did not when that photo was taken. Lawyers call it "facts not in evidence".
We don't know if those ACL cars had grey or black trucks when built, we only know that one did not when that photo was taken.
Lawyers call it "facts not in evidence".
I believe the facts ARE in evidence. I looked at three photos of those ACL cars. One of them was a builder's photo. You can look yourself: pages 28-29 in "Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Volume 27".
Sounds like you are holding that, since I don't have photos of all 300 cars in the class taken, what?, daily, that it's possible that on ONE day there was ONE car that had grey trucks.
Sure.
If we restricted every detail of our modeling to stuff we can prove with a photo it would be impossable to have any modeling continuity for any era in the past. Especially on a layout of any size or wider scope. If you browse (or search) MR in the early 50's, there is considerable conversation about these inclosed Ti ken bearing trucks. Many companies made models of these trucks. I'm sure a detailed manual search of such resources would provide considerable info on their use. As good as the "www" is, not every piece information is on there, not even close. Just because you cannot goole a picture of something, or flip open one book, foes not mean it did not exist. In my 50 years in this hobby, I have seen lots of once common information go by the wayside while other once obscure information as come to the forefront. But in that brief period from 1939 to 1953, some number of freight cars had these Timken roller bearing trucks, and very likely some were grey (or gray). My memory tells me I have seen them, but I have looked at a lot of trains in 50 years........ Sheldon
If we restricted every detail of our modeling to stuff we can prove with a photo it would be impossable to have any modeling continuity for any era in the past. Especially on a layout of any size or wider scope.
If you browse (or search) MR in the early 50's, there is considerable conversation about these inclosed Ti ken bearing trucks. Many companies made models of these trucks. I'm sure a detailed manual search of such resources would provide considerable info on their use.
As good as the "www" is, not every piece information is on there, not even close. Just because you cannot goole a picture of something, or flip open one book, foes not mean it did not exist. In my 50 years in this hobby, I have seen lots of once common information go by the wayside while other once obscure information as come to the forefront.
But in that brief period from 1939 to 1953, some number of freight cars had these Timken roller bearing trucks, and very likely some were grey (or gray).
My memory tells me I have seen them, but I have looked at a lot of trains in 50 years........
I was trying to answer, as you noted, in a very narrow and specific way. Others have gone in a more generalised direction. I think that both provide information that the OP can choose to act on, or not. I think EVERY BIT of information provided so far can be useful.
Sorry you don't like the way I answer questions. I will consider answering only in sweeping generalities in the future.
PS: Since I don't have photos of all the freight cars produced, neither can I prove that a giraffe car was never made. Opens up a lot of possibilities, if you think about it..........
The OP mentioned a particular model of truck produced by Lindberg, and asked "what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck?"
I interpreted that question to be asking about a car that would use the model he was describing, rather than gray trucks in general. That is, he wants to know what he can do with this particular truck. Which would explain why he posted the part number instead of just "grey roller bearing trucks".
So, I was pointing out that the model of truck he was asking after was not used under the car you referenced. And I pointed out the "two holes" as proof.
I am looking at a builder's photo of the GN car you are referencing (71096). The car side says: "TIMKEN ROLLER BEARING". The car is not grey. The trucks are not grey. The trucks do not have the same bearing assemblies as the Lindberg truck--they look exactly like plain-bearing trucks.
I DID find a covered hopper that used the same style of trucks as the sample Lindberg: ACL 86700-87299, built January 1954. But the pictures show the trucks painted not-grey.
It appears that neither you nor I have come up with a use for the particular truck he asked after.
Acording to several sources, including MR, SOME, not all, Great Northern 70 ton ACF covered hoppers built in 1951, where equiped with the trucks in question - specificly car #71096.
Regarding the color of trucks, on any equipment, there are endless photos, of all types of equipment, showing trucks (and underframes) painted the color of the car, be it gray (or grey) or oxide red. The UP painted trucks silver on lots of their yellow freight cars, the examples of trucks other than black are endless.
Here is a model of the box cars Timken used to promote roller bearing trucks - the very same type of roller bearing truck the OP asked about.
http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH71960
Athearn has been making this model almost since they appeared on the rails, going all the way back to their woodand metal line.
It comes with the correct trucks, no doubt the same tooling for this style truck once offered by Model Die Casting (Roundhouse).
These cars hit the rails in 1945 to promote roller bearing freight trucks.
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - remember this one: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy521w.jpg Yup. But those two hole below the funny looking spring package disqualify them. What else ya got, dude? Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - remember this one: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy521w.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy521w.jpg
Yup. But those two hole below the funny looking spring package disqualify them.
What else ya got, dude?
Why is that?
Don't you know what those trucks are?
They are National B-1's, the same trucks the ATSF used on it's 1940 built 50' ice reefers, Rr-30 and Rr-31.
And that was one of the common side frames for these rather rare roller bearing trucks from the 1940's.
The ACY car appears to have a 1942 built date in that photo.
There you have it, a 1942 car, with trucks from the 40's and roller bearings from the 40's.........