EB Products makes a very nice HO National Timken truck (T-327G) but it is molded in gray plastic. My question is what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck? (They also make trucks in Tuscan red, which I also don’t know where you would find in the real world-PRR?)
Those trucks look like, and a quick search showed them to actually be, the trucks offered at one time by Lindberg. In their day, these were as good as any available, but there are, in my opinion, better looking ones available nowadays.
Wayne
Indeed, if you look in the older magazines from the 60's and into the 70's, there was fairly consistent praise for the rolling qualities of Lindberg's trucks. Problem with real sprung trucks (if they actually work) is that the springs are MUCH too fine to replicate the prototype - physics doesn't scale. A scale size spring that actually looked like the real thing - you probably couln't compress by leaning on the model with all your weight.
Grey plastic doesn't bother me - you can always paint it. I paint all of my trucks, even if they are cast in black plastic, to kill the shine and make them look at least a little bit used. Grey would be not too common - perhaps on cement cars, where despite the railroad's normal colors for box cars, the whole car is painted grey so the spilled cement doesn't look as bad.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Those trucks to me look like "early roller bearing" freight.
If I felt compelled to find a car that used trucks like that, IN GREY, I'd start with early covered hoppers. Being as covered hoppers tend to be grey. Of course, the trucks could also be black.
GN, for example, had roller bearings on some of their earliest. Unfortunately for this particular quest, the trucks were not grey, and they looked just like plain bearing trucks.
The trucks might pass for dirty aluminum painted trucks. Then you might scan early "yellow painted" UP freight cars. Stock cars come to mind.
After that, I got nuthin'. And what I DO have ain't much.
Ed
I wonder if this EB Products is a successor or surviving fragment of the old E&B Valley firm which made a variety of model kits, and yes, trucks.
I have seen freight car trucks in both red (mostly on MOW cars) and black (which tends to weather to a brownish dark shade) on the prototype. Not gray but cannot rule it out.
Dave Nelson
the only road that i can think of off the top of my head was missouri pacific gray covered hoppers . you might check out fallen flags for roads that used gray paint to see if any others used them.
I looked at a lot of ACF 1958 covered hopper pictures. I didn't find any that used trucks like this in grey. I did find some ACL cars that appeared to use the truck in BCR.
That particular Roller Bearing truck seems to be a bit unusual, but the idea of gray trucks, especially on covered hoppers, was definitely not unusual.
I recall seeing a paint chart that specified black trucks on new PRR boxcars in the early 1950's, but I know for certain that red trucks were very common on freight cars of B&O, PRR, and others at that time. This has led me to conclude that shops tended to use red (same as the carbody) on repaints of the trucks of older cars.
I remember the Lindberg trucks fondly. At the time, there was nothing on the market that rolled more freely.
Tom
I cannot vouch for North American Gray/Grey trucks but the South Australian Railways painted their general vehicles Grey with the bogies to match e.g.
The first ones of these were actually built by ACF in the 1920's under the Webb Rehabilitation of the SAR and modellers in the 60's and 70's liked the Lindbergh trucks - saved all that repainting!
Cheers from Australia
Trevor
Yes, they are the old Lindberg trucks.
Yes the version in question is an early inclosed Timken roller bearing, same design bearing as many tender trucks and similar to most early streamlined passenger roller bearings, and the latter conversion bearings for heavyweight passenger trucks.
Yes, most commonly used in the late 40's/early 50's on early covered hoppers, express box cars and reefers that ran in passenger trains, some early piggyback cars, etc.
Covered hoppers were a prime target because of the nasty loading/unloading enviroment that would contaminate grease in conventional journals.
Yes, many such trucks on covered hoppers were gray like the hopper.....
Yes, model sprung truck springs do not have the visual mass of real truck springs. I still prefere them for their equalized operation. Most of my 1000 car freight car fleet rides on one brand or another of sprung trucks, incuding some Lindberg/EB roller bearings.
Again for any new people, my prefered freight car truck - Kadee sprung metal trucks refitted with Intermountain wheel sets........exhaustive testing has shown them to be the most free rolling and best tracking - sprung or unsprung.
But the EB/Linderberg truck is not bad either, and the Kadee brake shoes will clip right on them.
The Kadee plastic brake shoe detail is another reason I prefer the Kadee rucks.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, they are the old Lindberg trucks. Yes the version in question is an early inclosed Timken roller bearing, Yes, many such trucks on covered hoppers were gray like the hopper.....
Yes the version in question is an early inclosed Timken roller bearing,
One would think that. But I couldn't find any in the rather extensive article on early ACF covered hoppers in "Railway Prototype Cyclopedia". That certainly doesn't cover the Pullman PS-2's though.
That said, the only people who would notice and care about early Timken trucks used under a hopper would likely be impressed by your audacity of "insisting" that it was correct. 'Cause it looks like it sorta almost slight might could be.
Why not!
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, they are the old Lindberg trucks. Yes the version in question is an early inclosed Timken roller bearing, Yes, many such trucks on covered hoppers were gray like the hopper..... One would think that. But I couldn't find any in the rather extensive article on early ACF covered hoppers in "Railway Prototype Cyclopedia". That certainly doesn't cover the Pullman PS-2's though. That said, the only people who would notice and care about early Timken trucks used under a hopper would likely be impressed by your audacity of "insisting" that it was correct. 'Cause it looks like it sorta almost slight might could be. Why not! Ed
Interestingly, the use of these trucks on ANY freight equipment was rather limited. Only a few railroads saw the value, and a few tried them and never expanded their use.
There have been several discussions of these trucks on this forum over the years, and I don't have all the research at my finger tips.
But they did exist, and were used on some freight equipment in the period mentioned.
The more modern "open cap" roller bearing trucks most are familiar with did not appear until 1954 and one of the first cars they appeared on were the new 75' piggyback flats built for the PRR and Wabash.
If I have time later, I'll dig out some photos of pre '54 freight cars with inclosed roller bearing trucks.
PS - remember this one:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy521w.jpg
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - remember this one: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy521w.jpg
Yup. But those two hole below the funny looking spring package disqualify them.
What else ya got, dude?
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - remember this one: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy521w.jpg Yup. But those two hole below the funny looking spring package disqualify them. What else ya got, dude? Ed
Why is that?
Don't you know what those trucks are?
They are National B-1's, the same trucks the ATSF used on it's 1940 built 50' ice reefers, Rr-30 and Rr-31.
And that was one of the common side frames for these rather rare roller bearing trucks from the 1940's.
The ACY car appears to have a 1942 built date in that photo.
There you have it, a 1942 car, with trucks from the 40's and roller bearings from the 40's.........
Here is a model of the box cars Timken used to promote roller bearing trucks - the very same type of roller bearing truck the OP asked about.
http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH71960
Athearn has been making this model almost since they appeared on the rails, going all the way back to their woodand metal line.
It comes with the correct trucks, no doubt the same tooling for this style truck once offered by Model Die Casting (Roundhouse).
These cars hit the rails in 1945 to promote roller bearing freight trucks.
Acording to several sources, including MR, SOME, not all, Great Northern 70 ton ACF covered hoppers built in 1951, where equiped with the trucks in question - specificly car #71096.
Regarding the color of trucks, on any equipment, there are endless photos, of all types of equipment, showing trucks (and underframes) painted the color of the car, be it gray (or grey) or oxide red. The UP painted trucks silver on lots of their yellow freight cars, the examples of trucks other than black are endless.
Sheldon,
The OP mentioned a particular model of truck produced by Lindberg, and asked "what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck?"
I interpreted that question to be asking about a car that would use the model he was describing, rather than gray trucks in general. That is, he wants to know what he can do with this particular truck. Which would explain why he posted the part number instead of just "grey roller bearing trucks".
So, I was pointing out that the model of truck he was asking after was not used under the car you referenced. And I pointed out the "two holes" as proof.
I am looking at a builder's photo of the GN car you are referencing (71096). The car side says: "TIMKEN ROLLER BEARING". The car is not grey. The trucks are not grey. The trucks do not have the same bearing assemblies as the Lindberg truck--they look exactly like plain-bearing trucks.
I DID find a covered hopper that used the same style of trucks as the sample Lindberg: ACL 86700-87299, built January 1954. But the pictures show the trucks painted not-grey.
It appears that neither you nor I have come up with a use for the particular truck he asked after.
Ed, here is the problem as I see it.
You seem to take every prototype question like this very literal, and that would be great if we had progesssive photos of every freight car ever built, with dated details of every change ever made to it........but we don't.
We don't know if those ACL cars had grey or black trucks when built, we only know that one did not when that photo was taken.
Lawyers call it "facts not in evidence".
If we restricted every detail of our modeling to stuff we can prove with a photo it would be impossable to have any modeling continuity for any era in the past. Especially on a layout of any size or wider scope.
If you browse (or search) MR in the early 50's, there is considerable conversation about these inclosed Ti ken bearing trucks. Many companies made models of these trucks. I'm sure a detailed manual search of such resources would provide considerable info on their use.
As good as the "www" is, not every piece information is on there, not even close. Just because you cannot goole a picture of something, or flip open one book, foes not mean it did not exist. In my 50 years in this hobby, I have seen lots of once common information go by the wayside while other once obscure information as come to the forefront.
But in that brief period from 1939 to 1953, some number of freight cars had these Timken roller bearing trucks, and very likely some were grey (or gray).
My memory tells me I have seen them, but I have looked at a lot of trains in 50 years........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ed, here is the problem as I see it. You seem to take every prototype question like this very literal, and that would be great if we had progesssive photos of every freight car ever built, with dated details of every change ever made to it........but we don't.
Oh. I thought the problem was that you were answering in generalities instead of specifics. I was trying to find an example of the usage he wanted. You are saying since I can't PROVE these trucks were never used, and that they thus COULD have been used, he can go ahead and put them under just about any car he wants. Which I totally agree with. He can.
But then why would even bother to ask? He could just do it. Unless, of course, he feels the need for approval on the matter.
We don't know if those ACL cars had grey or black trucks when built, we only know that one did not when that photo was taken. Lawyers call it "facts not in evidence".
I believe the facts ARE in evidence. I looked at three photos of those ACL cars. One of them was a builder's photo. You can look yourself: pages 28-29 in "Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Volume 27".
Sounds like you are holding that, since I don't have photos of all 300 cars in the class taken, what?, daily, that it's possible that on ONE day there was ONE car that had grey trucks.
Sure.
If we restricted every detail of our modeling to stuff we can prove with a photo it would be impossable to have any modeling continuity for any era in the past. Especially on a layout of any size or wider scope. If you browse (or search) MR in the early 50's, there is considerable conversation about these inclosed Ti ken bearing trucks. Many companies made models of these trucks. I'm sure a detailed manual search of such resources would provide considerable info on their use. As good as the "www" is, not every piece information is on there, not even close. Just because you cannot goole a picture of something, or flip open one book, foes not mean it did not exist. In my 50 years in this hobby, I have seen lots of once common information go by the wayside while other once obscure information as come to the forefront. But in that brief period from 1939 to 1953, some number of freight cars had these Timken roller bearing trucks, and very likely some were grey (or gray). My memory tells me I have seen them, but I have looked at a lot of trains in 50 years........ Sheldon
I was trying to answer, as you noted, in a very narrow and specific way. Others have gone in a more generalised direction. I think that both provide information that the OP can choose to act on, or not. I think EVERY BIT of information provided so far can be useful.
Sorry you don't like the way I answer questions. I will consider answering only in sweeping generalities in the future.
PS: Since I don't have photos of all the freight cars produced, neither can I prove that a giraffe car was never made. Opens up a lot of possibilities, if you think about it..........
Well Ed, the one thing we do agree on is that all the info presented is useful.
OK, so we do have proof that black Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks were installed on covered hoppers in the early 50's. And between us it seems we have only touched on a few railroads and a few resources.
And if one of your photos is a builders photo, I would agree, that group was most likely all built with black trucks. I don't have a copy of that resource........
Maybe we should also consider this point:
Why did Lindberg and later EB make the trucks in grey?
Just so happens I know the answer, I was working ina hobby shop when the Lindberg trucks were on the market......1970/71.
Lindberg offered ALL their styles of trucks in three colors, grey, black and oxide red. Why? Because it was well known back then that a fair number of railroads painted trucks the same color as the equipment with regard to those three colors.
MOW equipment was often grey and often had "dip" paint jobs. With or without roller bearing trucks many (not all by any means) cement hoppers were grey with matching trucks.
Lots of red oxide box cars (and hoppers of all sorts) had red oxide underframes and trucks when built.
Lindberg used this info in their promotion of the product. The rest of the industry generally only offered black, or bare metal of some sort.
Tell you what, you keep on answering questions as you see fit. I was happy to answer your question about steam generators and even provided a reliable source, an actual GM operating manual, for which I got no response from you. Not a thank you, not a challenge, no acknowledgement one way or another.
But you are sure quick with a glib comment when you don't think I offer enough "proof".
I do find it VERY interesting that any given copy of MR or Craftsman from the early 50's is full of pictures, references, product ads, etc, for Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks, yet today few people, even many transition era modelers, seem to know anything about them?
Related but unrelated fact - The WESTERN MARYLAND bought PS-2 2003 cu ft, 70 ton two bay covered hoppers with friction bearing trucks. By the late 50's they began a complete conversion of those cars to the more common, more modern open rolling bearing trucks most are familiar with, long before they were required. Both the original truck and the replacement trucks were painted to match the grey cars.
Why did they change out trucks less than 10 years old - for the same reasons I suggested originally that covered cement hoppers were a prime target for roller bearing trucks, bad working enviroment around cement dust.
We will never know everything about every piece of equipment, so I stopped being OCD about it decades ago, despite considerable study and knowledge on my part. So maybe that is why I answer these questions more "generally".
Sorry you find that so offensive.
Cunningtim EB Products makes a very nice HO National Timken truck (T-327G) but it is molded in gray plastic. My question is what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck? (They also make trucks in Tuscan red, which I also don’t know where you would find in the real world-PRR?)
And so there you have it, EB and their predecessor Lindberg offered all their trucks in all three colors, black, grey and oxide.
By the way, EB is for sale, any takers?
I didn't say the trucks were black. I said they were not-grey. The photos are b&w. I can see that the car and trucks were painted a dark color. Don't know what, for sure. I would place it in the range of a version of "box car red". But not grey--too dark. And the lettering is white. Almost surely.
Lindberg made the first plastic HO truck in the early '60's. I would think they made their trucks in color because they COULD. You can't do that with metal trucks. I think they just "cast about" for colors they thought were common, and used those. Probably for ever truck version they made. I think it also possible that they thought the grey was about as close as they could get to the UP's aluminum.
I apologize for not thanking you. I should have, especially because I tend to be hard on people who don't. Which makes it worse. Again, I apologize.
The information was of use. And I thank you. By the way, I have stayed interested in the subject because I want to do the steam generators on my GN F's correctly. What I have found is that it "seems" like GN put a different arrangement on each passenger F. Yikes, so many ways to put a kupla thingys on a roof.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do find it VERY interesting that any given copy of MR or Craftsman from the early 50's is full of pictures, references, product ads, etc, for Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks, yet today few people, even many transition era modelers, seem to know anything about them?
You inspired me to have a look at my copy of the 1953 "Car Builders' Cyclopedia". Contrary to your experience with MR and RMC, in the freight truck section of the book, which is 36 pages long, the only evidence of roller bearing trucks is two drawings. Out of 287 freight car photos, 4 had identifiable roller bearings, and two had roller bearing trucks that looked plain.
Of special interest, Timken had a five page ad that listed ALL of the freight cars equipped with their bearings. Other companies with roller bearing ads were Bower-Franklin (?), Hyatt, and SKF.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But you are sure quick with a glib comment when you don't think I offer enough "proof".
If the glib comment you are referring to was what I said in reference to your link to a photo, it wasn't that you didn't offer enough "proof", it was that the truck in the photo was not the one the OP described.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL We will never know everything about every piece of equipment, so I stopped being OCD about it decades ago, despite considerable study and knowledge on my part. So maybe that is why I answer these questions more "generally". Sorry you find that so offensive. Sheldon
I don't find it offensive if you, or anyone else, answers questions in generalities. As I said, I think it is very helpful. I hope you continue to do so.
Pretty sure these trucks are grey, even if not roller bearing
http://www.readingmodeler.info/images/rollingstock/cvdhopper/photo/rdgloa79088.jpg
This one too (look at the ends where not in shadows)
http://www.readingmodeler.info/images/rollingstock/cvdhopper/photo/rdglog79800.JPG
Absolutely this one:
http://www.readingmodeler.info/images/rollingstock/cvdhopper/photo/rdglof79551.jpg
Ed, apology graciously accepted, and you are most welcome, I was happy to help.
I may be a freelance/protolance modeler, and a east coast modeler (B&O, C&O, WM), but passenger F units are a special interest of mine and yes from my research and memory GN tried a new idea on each batch of passenger F units.......
Back to the inclosed roller bearing trucks - YES they were rare, despite the efforts of Timken to sell the idea.
I suspect in 1950, with those Timken box cars rolling around, it was no different then the way some modelers today are into the latest thing on the rails. That may have made it popular in the hobby, even if the railroads were not buying it much......no doubt most were "test" applications or special service. And when we consider were passenger service was headed, things like express box cars and reefers reall did not have a bright future.....
And, by the time they did start buying, designs had changed. And a decade latter they had no choice.
Yes agreed, I know for a fact Lindberg made all their trucks in all three colors because they could, and they had enough prototype examples to make it a selling point, how ever small in numbers some of those examples might have been.
I grew up working in hobby shops as a teen and young adult, just in time to see the tail end of stuff like Athearn metal cars, Varney, etc. And as a younger child my father was a very serious "holiday modeler". At age 10, once we had the room, he built a permanent layout in the basement and handed over to me by age 12. So my start in the hobby was not only young, but with a high exposure to products somewhat older than my years. I still have Athearn and Varney metal cars on my layout.
Take care,
Our model railroad history is remarkably similar, Sheldon. Up until I was 10, we only had room for a temporary layout over the holiday season. Each year we added something until it took up every last bit of room we had. At 10 I built my first permanent layout. The only difference was, I was on my own as my Dad passed away the previous Spring. I had a ton of space in my bedroom but not really enough for a 4x8 (until a few years later when we added on to the house) so I brought out the N scale that we hadn't used for a few years and built a 2x4 N scale layout.
rrinker Our model railroad history is remarkably similar, Sheldon. Up until I was 10, we only had room for a temporary layout over the holiday season. Each year we added something until it took up every last bit of room we had. At 10 I built my first permanent layout. The only difference was, I was on my own as my Dad passed away the previous Spring. I had a ton of space in my bedroom but not really enough for a 4x8 (until a few years later when we added on to the house) so I brought out the N scale that we hadn't used for a few years and built a 2x4 N scale layout. --Randy
Randy, sorry you lost your father at such a young age.
My father gets credit for at least half of everything I know or have acomplished in this life. He taught me how to build everything from models, to houses, to automobiles.
I still have models he built on my layout today.
And I consider myself blessed to have had the foundation in this hobby, and in life, that he provided.
Just a bit of background on the Timken boxcar and the AC&Y covered hopper with Timken bearings:
Akron Canton & Youngstown enjoyed a close relationship with the Timken Roller Bearing Company, even though they never actually got as far as Timken's home in Canton, Ohio. The road specified Timken roller bearings on all axles of Lima Mikados 404 and 405 in 1941; Alco S2 diesel D1 in 1942; Lima Mikado 406 in 1944; and Alco RS1 diesel D2 in 1945. All subsequent AC&Y diesels had roller bearings.
AC&Y's first fifteen 70 ton ACF design covered hoppers were numbers 500-514. They were built in 1942 with AAR cast steel trucks and plain bearings. The next 25 cars were 515-539. These were built in 1947 and equipped with Roller Bearing National Type B trucks. All forty cars were painted gray, with gray trucks. The paint scheme shown above is a repaint, circa 1960's. At least one car got a black paint job with white lettering, but that evidently didn't last.
As far as we have been able to determine, there was only one Timken boxcar. It was Timken number 88, built in July, 1943 by ACF. It was your basic 1937 AAR boxcar, but it used inside bearing roller bearing trucks. For a time, it carried a green paint scheme, and may have carried another dark scheme at some time, but it appeared at the Chicago Railroad Exposition in 1948 in yellow with a white band and black roof. Reporting marks were TRBX. The paint scheme and number shown on the Athearn car are probably foobies, vaguely inspired by TRBX 88. At least nobody at the AC&Y Historical Society has found any documentation for it. The idea that there were a number of these cars may come from Timken advertising artwork that shows a long string of similar yellow cars in a train. From 1951 to 1958, the car was leased to AC&Y and carried that same yellow scheme with AC&Y reporting marks and the AC&Y number 600. The large Roller Freight lettering was removed and replaced with a simplified Roller Freight slogan that complemented the AC&Y round logo. It appears that the inside bearing trucks were replaced with some form of outside bearing roller bearing truck in AC&Y service, but information is lacking and photos do not show this clearly. Frames for advertising placards were on the car's ends and side doors in every picture we have seen, including those in AC&Y service.
AC&Y also leased a gondola with Timken roller bearings, AC&Y number 1500, from 1951 to 1958. It had a distinctive red and white paint scheme with black lettering, which also advertised the Timken bearings.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrinker Our model railroad history is remarkably similar, Sheldon. Up until I was 10, we only had room for a temporary layout over the holiday season. Each year we added something until it took up every last bit of room we had. At 10 I built my first permanent layout. The only difference was, I was on my own as my Dad passed away the previous Spring. I had a ton of space in my bedroom but not really enough for a 4x8 (until a few years later when we added on to the house) so I brought out the N scale that we hadn't used for a few years and built a 2x4 N scale layout. --Randy Randy, sorry you lost your father at such a young age. My father gets credit for at least half of everything I know or have acomplished in this life. He taught me how to build everything from models, to houses, to automobiles. I still have models he built on my layout today. And I consider myself blessed to have had the foundation in this hobby, and in life, that he provided. Sheldon
Indeed. I learned about cars, carpentry, basic electricty, model building, how to shoot - too many things to mention. And always encouraged my curiosity. Despite it all being cut short, I am who I am today in a large part because of my Dad. Definitely my main hobby interests come from him.
Some roads did unique things like paint the truck frames a certain color to have them stand out.
ATSFGuy Some roads did unique things like paint the truck frames a certain color to have them stand out.
It's good to have a fashion sense.